prong collar: how to?

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Postby arlosgirl » January 30th, 2006, 6:54 pm

ive found 2 classes here, one is done through pet pantry (happy tails dog training), $84 for 6 wks. i think only 6 classes, one per week. starts feb 20th

the other is discovery dog training, he does 9 lessons, 3 per week, $160. does one on one, so can start anytime.

both are positive reinforcement.

im gonna keep checking around, but thats what ive found as of now. what do u think?

edit: thats all there is here. do you think the one on one would be better for her? i think shes ADHD.... :crazy:
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Postby pLaurent » January 30th, 2006, 9:33 pm

I highly recommend obedience school. Owners need it more than dogs, as it will teach you HOW to train your dog, with no hitting or yelling (which obviously are NOT working anyway.)

You say you have her SIT - she sits for 30 seconds then takes off. She couldn't do this if she were on leash. Something dogs catch onto instantly is when you cannot or will not enforce a command.

Don't do what I see people doing all the time - "Sit, Spot....Sit sit sit...I said SIT DOWN!" The dog learns he doesn't have to listen until the command has repeated 30 times. Use a command once, give her 3 seconds to comply, then help her do what you asked. Naturally, you only do this once you are sure she understands the command.

My dog was a little headstrong and stubborn too, until she learned that she may as well obey the first time, because she was going to have to do what she was told in the end.
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Postby mnp13 » January 30th, 2006, 11:21 pm

pLaurent wrote:Don't do what I see people doing all the time - "Sit, Spot....Sit sit sit...I said SIT DOWN!" The dog learns he doesn't have to listen until the command has repeated 30 times. Use a command once, give her 3 seconds to comply, then help her do what you asked. Naturally, you only do this once you are sure she understands the command.


:goodStuff:
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Postby arlosgirl » January 31st, 2006, 2:52 pm

should i go with the nine lessons? i think she might need more than six.

she is getting better, though. last night after i cleaned her room she went right in and layed down. so of course, i praised her alot! i sat in there with her for about 20 min rubbing her belly. she loves her belly rubbed now cause the pup has scratched the shiny out of her boobies! it looks like cat scratches all over them! is there something i can put on them?
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Postby mnp13 » January 31st, 2006, 3:53 pm

If they are not red and inflamed, let them be, she will take care of them. anything you put on them she will lick off anyway.

The more lessons the better, you can't have an overly obedient dog, and you can't have too good of a relationship!

Good work on the NILIF so far!
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Postby arlosgirl » February 1st, 2006, 12:16 pm

thanks for all the help with this! i really appreciate it. im gonna call tom today to schedule our lessons.
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Postby arlosgirl » February 3rd, 2006, 5:15 pm

the obedience guy told me i needed to bring a 6 ft leash and a training collar. so, i said i had a prong and he said NO! he said i had to get a choker collar. i know how you guys feel about chokers so i was looking for any input before i start classes with him on monday. thanks
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Postby mnp13 » February 3rd, 2006, 5:23 pm

I HATE CHOKE CHAINS

They are hard to use correctly, they only work in one direction, and they choke your dog because there is no limit on the amount the collar can tighten.

they are NOT SAFE, especially for a hyper dog. When the dog is on the wrong side of you or behind you the chain will not release correctly because it gets caught on the ring. so when you give a correction the collar releases pressure much too slowly.

if you must get a choke, get a nylon one because they slide much easier. if it must be metal, get the absolute smallest links you can find that are strong enough for your dog.

if you want to be defiant, get a martingale. Remember, you are the customer here. If you don't want to use a choke don't use one. A martingale delivers a correction that is similar to a choke, but without the damage that a choke can do.
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Postby arlosgirl » February 3rd, 2006, 5:35 pm

thanks, i remembered that you had talked about hating them, so i thought id better ask. ill look for a nylon one. whats a martingale?
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Postby mnp13 » February 3rd, 2006, 5:41 pm

arlosgirl wrote:thanks, i remembered that you had talked about hating them, so i thought id better ask. ill look for a nylon one. whats a martingale?


I hate them for good reason. they are bad for dogs. :D

A martingale is also referred to as a 'greyhound collar' like these:
http://www.northwindcatalog.com/martingale_collars.htm

the loop of fabric is all that tightens, so when all the slack is gone from the loop the collar can't tighten anymore.
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Postby arlosgirl » February 3rd, 2006, 5:48 pm

those are cool! do they have them at pet stores? or do u have to order them?
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Postby mnp13 » February 3rd, 2006, 5:56 pm

arlosgirl wrote:those are cool! do they have them at pet stores? or do u have to order them?


Most pet stores have them. They are very common. Some have a chain instead of a nylon loop, they work the same.
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Postby a-bull » February 17th, 2006, 10:10 am

mnp13 wrote:I HATE CHOKE CHAINS

They are hard to use correctly, they only work in one direction, and they choke your dog because there is no limit on the amount the collar can tighten.

they are NOT SAFE, especially for a hyper dog. When the dog is on the wrong side of you or behind you the chain will not release correctly because it gets caught on the ring. so when you give a correction the collar releases pressure much too slowly.

if you must get a choke, get a nylon one because they slide much easier. if it must be metal, get the absolute smallest links you can find that are strong enough for your dog.

if you want to be defiant, get a martingale. Remember, you are the customer here. If you don't want to use a choke don't use one. A martingale delivers a correction that is similar to a choke, but without the damage that a choke can do.


I agree . . .

I went to a training class that used prong collars---on every dog . . . period. I refused. Went over like a lead balloon, but who cares. It's my dog, I was paying for the training, and I don't like them. Once I refused, other people got the courage to refuse, too. It's amazing how many people will just do what their told, even if it goes against their gut instincts.

We need more people-training classes. :D
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Postby cheekymunkee » February 17th, 2006, 10:16 am

I went to a training session like that as well. The trainer had her rat terrier puppy at the class WITH A PRONG COLLAR ON!! I put Justice back in the car & left after about 5 minutes of observing the class. Justice does need a prong ( she is a hard headed pulling machine!!) but I do not understand what makes a 3 pound dog need one. :|
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Postby a-bull » February 17th, 2006, 10:28 am

cheekymunkee wrote:I went to a training session like that as well. The trainer had her rat terrier puppy at the class WITH A PRONG COLLAR ON!! I put Justice back in the car & left after about 5 minutes of observing the class. Justice does need a prong ( she is a hard headed pulling machine!!) but I do not understand what makes a 3 pound dog need one. :|


Right, I don't like them at all, but I understand it's a tool, and different people find different tools helpful---BUT, slapping one on every dog in class after the second week of training?? Yeah, right . . . how 'bout the trainer get some training. :D

My parents own three rat terriers and they don't even wear collars, lol . . .
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Postby mnp13 » February 17th, 2006, 11:41 am

Prong collars are nothing like choke chains. When correctly used they are much milder and IMO they are safer due to the limited slip.

Why does a 3 pound dog need a prong? Why not? It is just a training tool, and not limited to large dogs.

That said, no puppy should ever be trained useing any sort of compulsion. They are too young to understand why they are being corrected in the first place.
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Postby a-bull » February 17th, 2006, 12:45 pm

I just don't think it should be a given that a dog needs to be trained on a prong---many, many dogs don't, and a prong on a Rat is just ridiculous. All three of my parents Rat Terriers are beautifully trained, done so strictly through positive reinforcement.
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Postby mnp13 » February 17th, 2006, 12:53 pm

a-bull wrote:I just don't think it should be a given that a dog needs to be trained on a prong---many, many dogs don't, and a prong on a Rat is just ridiculous. All three of my parents Rat Terriers are beautifully trained, done so strictly through positive reinforcement.


No, not every dog needs a prong. There are many different training methods out there and there is no right answer as to 'how' to train. A prong on any breed is not 'rediculous', a prong on a puppy IS.

Some dogs work great under positive only, some dogs couldn't care less if they don't get that treat.
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Postby a-bull » February 17th, 2006, 1:14 pm

I'm just not a prong fan, that's all there is to it. Just my opinion, obviously, and like I've said, I know some people prefer them and find them useful.

One of my dogs isn't treat oriented and is extremely stubborn, but she has been successfully trained with strictly positive reinforcement. I'd say it probably took alot longer, and I understand trainers have a limited time to "train" people's dogs in a group setting, so time isn't on their side and thus probably the reason many trainers prefer such tools.

I don't have a problem with negative/compulsion training on dogs that are in a dire situation and have a behavior that needs to be fixed fast or else, but generally I much prefer the positive.

Just my opinion/experience. Everyone's different. :)
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Postby mnp13 » February 17th, 2006, 1:59 pm

I have no problem with positive only, none at all. And most people are good with a mix of training methods. My 'beef' is when the hardcore positive only people show up and tell everyone who uses any compulsion is a horrible neandrathal who is too lazy to 'really' train their dog.

Personally, I use motivation to teach and compulsion to proof.
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