On January 23 2007, 5:57 PM, DemoDick wrote:What I find really interesting is that Konrad Most "discovered" the basic principles of OC and a lot of Pavlovian thought years before mainstream science. He didn't use the same labels but he definitely described primary and secondary reinforcers, etc. I'm sure you would find his writings interesting, especially given your vocation.
Demo Dick
On January 23 2007, Malli wrote:So... In my training I start by teaching something by rewarding my dog everytime he does an action that I want him to do (guided or not), once I am sure he has learned what a gesture or noise (verbal command) means, and he chooses not to respond how I have taught him, I give him a verbal correction and/or a physical correction (leash pop with a training collar, most recently a prong, though I get that its not what you use, but how you use it)
From what I understand I use Positive reinforcement and positive punishment ? (correct me if I'm wrong)
All this time I thought it was positive and negative reinforcement
I guess, it doesn't really matter what I call it, as long as I had the ideas/concepts and practices right, though it is nice to know so I can intelligently become involved in a conversation about dog training...
very informative!
On January 23 2007, a-bull wrote:On January 23 2007, Malli wrote:So... In my training I start by teaching something by rewarding my dog everytime he does an action that I want him to do (guided or not), once I am sure he has learned what a gesture or noise (verbal command) means, and he chooses not to respond how I have taught him, I give him a verbal correction and/or a physical correction (leash pop with a training collar, most recently a prong, though I get that its not what you use, but how you use it)
From what I understand I use Positive reinforcement and positive punishment ? (correct me if I'm wrong)
All this time I thought it was positive and negative reinforcement
I guess, it doesn't really matter what I call it, as long as I had the ideas/concepts and practices right, though it is nice to know so I can intelligently become involved in a conversation about dog training...
very informative!
If you're using positive reinforcement to train your dog, you reward the dog the minute he performs the task you requested. You do this every time he performs the task. Once he does it every time without fail (over time), you then drop back to rewarding randomly, (intermittent reinforcement).
Yes, thats how I would teach a command, say, if I was teaching sit to a dog that had never learned. I become certain that the dog understands the task when he does it every time and is still getting the reward. I have dropped back the reward (first when Oscar was a puppy it was treats, then we moved on to his toy, and then I dropped the reward back) and praise of course is after almost every task(every task when learning) I ask of him.
Eventually you'll find you can just request a certain task and the dog will simply perform it.
Nope! Not my dog. Eventually I notice that he becomes slower, turns his head the other way (because he thinks even if the task is asked verbally that he won't "hear" it if he's facing the other way-I do acknowledge that he seems more "visual" then audio), or looks over looks at me, "thinks" about it for a few seconds, " 1/2 does the task requested and then f*cks off)
I have heard trainers say some dogs will then stop performing the task somewhere down the line when they figure out they may no longer get a reward, but I have never experienced that.
On January 24 2007, katiek0417 wrote:Malli,
What you describe is indeed positive reinforcement and positive punishment. In both cases you are giving something. But with reinforcement you are giving something good (a treat) to increase the likelihood of a behavior, and in positive punishment, you are giving something bad (a leash pop) to decrease the likelihood that he won't listen to you.
As a-bull suggests, you can go to intermittent (also called variable) reinforcement, but you need to decide if you want to do a variable ratio or interval. Variable ratio is a reward after an "average" number of behaviors. So, you could reward an average of every 5 times the dog sits. However, you wouldn't do every 5 times, you are looking for an average, so you might do after 4 sits, after 6 sits, after 5 sits...4+6+5=15, 15/3=5. Same concept for interval, except you are going for average time (like, on average, every 2 minutes, etc).
Also, a-bull, what you are talking about with the ceasing of a behavior is called extinction. Extinction is much more likely with classical conditioning, but can also occur with operant. And even though there can be extinction, it is never fully gone, as it is relearned rather easily.
On January 24 2007, 2:25 PM, a-bull wrote:On January 24 2007, katiek0417 wrote:Malli,
What you describe is indeed positive reinforcement and positive punishment. In both cases you are giving something. But with reinforcement you are giving something good (a treat) to increase the likelihood of a behavior, and in positive punishment, you are giving something bad (a leash pop) to decrease the likelihood that he won't listen to you.
As a-bull suggests, you can go to intermittent (also called variable) reinforcement, but you need to decide if you want to do a variable ratio or interval. Variable ratio is a reward after an "average" number of behaviors. So, you could reward an average of every 5 times the dog sits. However, you wouldn't do every 5 times, you are looking for an average, so you might do after 4 sits, after 6 sits, after 5 sits...4+6+5=15, 15/3=5. Same concept for interval, except you are going for average time (like, on average, every 2 minutes, etc).
Also, a-bull, what you are talking about with the ceasing of a behavior is called extinction. Extinction is much more likely with classical conditioning, but can also occur with operant. And even though there can be extinction, it is never fully gone, as it is relearned rather easily.
How does the interval work out for dogs in general? Seems like an 'iffy' way to train a dog to me, but I can't pinpoint why.
I would think if these are tasks her dog already knows, but is refusing to perform, (for whatever reason), the intermittent reward would be the best approach, yes?
I agree that extinction is more probable with classical conditioning and will be better retained; however, with naughty behaviors I find it hard to figure out how to "reward" away a naughty behavior. I always worry I could be accidentally reinforcing it instead; thus, I like the idea of a consequence, but only to the extent I mentioned in another thread, (wherein I gave the example of the bitter apple on socks. My female sock biter has never gone after a socked foot again).
I feel like I have experienced the reoccurrence of negative behaviors using classical conditioning more than I have using operant. Any insight?? Am I hallucinating or have I just been lucky, (or unlucky, as the case may be).
Thank you for your posts~They're very interesting, (atleast to me, ).
On January 24 2007, Malli wrote:ok, I had a second post in response to a-bul's
Its disappeared, I guess.
I think I already kind of do the variable; sometimes I'll reward every second task completed, sometimes every 6th or so (It seems after that point that the training looses its "fun" and the dog in turn looses his attention span); this is all of course before the proofing stage and before I am sure the dog knows the task requested.
so what does everyone else use for training?
anyone else have a dog like me?
On January 24 2007, 9:15 PM, a-bull wrote:I don't think you'd want to use the interval on a dog that doesn't already know specific commands, though, would you? For example, you wouldn't want to intermittently reward a dog just learning a command or it may not be learned/reinforced, agree?
My female whines while I'm preparing her food, too. I just tell her "quiet." Less taxing than yelling, .
Question though~Do you think the yell is accomplishing the "quiet," or is the feeding her only after she has ceased whining accomplishing the "quiet"??
Your jalapeno example sounds like reverse clicker training, .
On January 24 2007, katiek0417 wrote:On January 24 2007, 9:15 PM, a-bull wrote:I don't think you'd want to use the interval on a dog that doesn't already know specific commands, though, would you? For example, you wouldn't want to intermittently reward a dog just learning a command or it may not be learned/reinforced, agree?
My female whines while I'm preparing her food, too. I just tell her "quiet." Less taxing than yelling, .
Question though~Do you think the yell is accomplishing the "quiet," or is the feeding her only after she has ceased whining accomplishing the "quiet"??
Your jalapeno example sounds like reverse clicker training, .
No, when they are first learning, I use all positive, and EVERY time.
It doesn't matter how many times I tell Sacha "quiet" nicely. I've done it with e-collar, etc...she doesn't care....we've thrown things at her, etc...So, what we've found is that when she realizes that it will take longer to get her food, she quiets down quicker...
I've now used the jalapeno thing with 3 different dogs, and it's worked every time!!! I love it...
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