What are the differences between PSA, Ring and Schutzhund?

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Postby katiek0417 » January 6th, 2007, 9:43 pm

On January 06 2007, 6:19 PM, DemoDick wrote:Another important distinction between PSA and Sch. is the level of distraction in obedience. A PSA trial field often looks like someone emptied the toy bins at a pet store all over it. There is gunfire during heeling and the long down (last time I checked). And there's a suited decoy on the field as a distraction. PSA obedience is based on EXTREME distraction, and it is very difficult. (Note-I've not trialed in PSA at the time of this writing)

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You are right....they do use a ton of distractions, although, for the 1's, only approved distractions can be used now...
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Postby luvmypitties » January 7th, 2007, 9:37 pm

Seems so confusing!!!!
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Postby SisMorphine » January 7th, 2007, 9:54 pm

On January 05 2007, 7:30 PM, luvmypitties wrote:So its not all just bite work which were my original thoughts. so what is the purpose of the PSA?? Is it to prove an obedient dog?

Keep in mind, bitework is just a higher level of obedience!!
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Postby luvmypitties » January 7th, 2007, 9:55 pm

I found a club in my area!!! Like 15 minutes from my house!! And one of my old co-workers is a member with her Malinois!!! I am very excited! I have emailed them asking lots of questions, aslo about their obedience training since it is a big part of PSA.

Now I have a question and it may be stupid but it may not. Now if Roscoe ends up staying I would love to get into all of this stuff... but I want to do therapy work too... can you do that with a PSA dog?? I am assuming the dogs know the difference. Not sure so i thought I would ask.
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Postby mnp13 » January 7th, 2007, 10:12 pm

Some therapy organizations allow bitework trained dogs to do therapy work, some do not. TDI does, Delta does not, I'm not sure about B&B
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Postby katiek0417 » January 8th, 2007, 1:02 am

On January 07 2007, 8:55 PM, luvmypitties wrote:I found a club in my area!!! Like 15 minutes from my house!! And one of my old co-workers is a member with her Malinois!!! I am very excited! I have emailed them asking lots of questions, aslo about their obedience training since it is a big part of PSA.

Now I have a question and it may be stupid but it may not. Now if Roscoe ends up staying I would love to get into all of this stuff... but I want to do therapy work too... can you do that with a PSA dog?? I am assuming the dogs know the difference. Not sure so i thought I would ask.


MOST of the dogs in PSA are social. I found that hard to believe, but even some of the hardest dogs in PSA are extremely social. This includes level 3 dogs such as Bullet, Trixie, and TJ...Porter and Ricardo are/were very social (Ricardo was social as long as there was no work going on)....In fact, I just asked Greg (who has been involved with PSA since it's inception) and he can only recall 5 "hard" dogs who were not social....

The thing that most of us have to worry about is drive. I would never have my 1.5 year old mal around children or people who were in a hospital. Not because she doesn't have a great temperament, but because she is still a baby, and has a ton of energy (and is extremely jumpy)...part of this is a result of her drive, though....on the other hand, I look at Asja, who is the East Coast Regional Champion for the Level 1 Novice, and 2nd in the Country for the Level 1 Novice, and she can be around children, having them pet her, WHILE bite work is being done in front of her. She is also almost 4, though....

A sound dog will know the difference.

What group will you be training with?
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Postby luvmypitties » January 8th, 2007, 11:29 am

I am talking to the training clud Sassafras K9 training. Here is their site http://www.sassafrak9.com/index.htm . I want to first make sure that I like the stuff that they do and how they handle the dogs. There is another one in VA but it is 2 hours away. I emailed sassafras and asked them some general questions about their training so i will see what their response is.

I know therapy work wont come til the dog is older and has calmed down a bit.I mean this is still way a head in the future. He is still very young!!!
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Our thoughts and prayers are with Mick and Christine! We love you both!

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Postby Nelson » January 8th, 2007, 11:36 am

However, Ring tends to not put as much emphasis on the fullness of the bite (from what I've been told from Ring decoys), whereas in PSA you get judged on how full the grip is.


I'm glad to see this discussion here. Although I don't always have the time to read all the posts and write answers, I always manage to do some "rounds"! lol

I'd like to comment on the above quote. In French Ring the Decoys at level 2 & 3 have the green light to use ALL of their moves on the dogs. One of the main objectives is to try not to get bit by the dog and once bitten try to get him off the bite (within the rules of course). So we're constantly looking for any loopholes or gaps in the training and/or the dogs' temperament.

With this in mind, it'll be almost impossible for a dog in those levels to get a full mouth grip on a good, agile and competent decoy. Judging depth and quality of grip in this sport would be unfair. On the other hand they do judge tenacity of the dogs' character and training for staying on the bite. If the dog changes his grip or lets go of the decoy, major points are lost.

"Trainingwise", all good Ring trainers train their dogs for a full bite. They'll teach the traditional "spots" like front and back legs, flee's, upper body bites, etc. Not always getting a dog to perform them in trials is irrelevant as long as he stays on the bite.
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Postby katiek0417 » January 8th, 2007, 1:33 pm

On January 08 2007, 10:29 AM, luvmypitties wrote:I am talking to the training clud Sassafras K9 training. Here is their site http://www.sassafrak9.com/index.htm . I want to first make sure that I like the stuff that they do and how they handle the dogs. There is another one in VA but it is 2 hours away. I emailed sassafras and asked them some general questions about their training so i will see what their response is.

I know therapy work wont come til the dog is older and has calmed down a bit.I mean this is still way a head in the future. He is still very young!!!


Sassafras is owned by Ricky Galloway. He's a great guy, and he's a good trainer. He owns 2 nice dogs: Rex and Rocket. Rex is a dog that my boyfriend used to own. Very sound, but a good worker. Also social, even with decoys around. Rocket is a full brother to my boyfriend's female (who just had puppies). I don't know a ton about Rocket, but I can tell you that Asja has one of the best temperaments I've ever seen (she's the one I was talking about in my previous post about sitting with a little girl while watching bitework)....

Rick used to train with Joe Morris (co-founder of PSA), as well as my boyfriend. I've only trained with him twice, but have spoken to him many times on the phone and via IM (he is also very good friends with my boyfriend). When I used to get frustrated with my boyfriend's training ideas (before he was my boyfriend) I would get a lot of advice from Ricky. He understood that my dogs were NOT ONLY working dogs, but also pets, and had to act appropriately as such. He is also a decoy who is very skilled with catching and working dogs. When I went down there, he had a good mix of dogs, but I remember that he worked well with the pitties (there are several in his club)....

I HIGHLY recommend Ricky as a trainer!!! I think you'll like him....and, tell him that you know me (Katrina - actually, I don't remember if he called me Katie, or not, but if you tell him Katrina, Greg's girlfriend, he'll know exactly who I am).
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Postby katiek0417 » January 8th, 2007, 1:42 pm

On January 08 2007, 10:36 AM, Nelson wrote:
However, Ring tends to not put as much emphasis on the fullness of the bite (from what I've been told from Ring decoys), whereas in PSA you get judged on how full the grip is.


I'm glad to see this discussion here. Although I don't always have the time to read all the posts and write answers, I always manage to do some "rounds"! lol

I'd like to comment on the above quote. In French Ring the Decoys at level 2 & 3 have the green light to use ALL of their moves on the dogs. One of the main objectives is to try not to get bit by the dog and once bitten try to get him off the bite (within the rules of course). So we're constantly looking for any loopholes or gaps in the training and/or the dogs' temperament.

With this in mind, it'll be almost impossible for a dog in those levels to get a full mouth grip on a good, agile and competent decoy. Judging depth and quality of grip in this sport would be unfair. On the other hand they do judge tenacity of the dogs' character and training for staying on the bite. If the dog changes his grip or lets go of the decoy, major points are lost.

"Trainingwise", all good Ring trainers train their dogs for a full bite. They'll teach the traditional "spots" like front and back legs, flee's, upper body bites, etc. Not always getting a dog to perform them in trials is irrelevant as long as he stays on the bite.


Now, see, I have spoken to several ring decoys who have told me that while they might train for a full bite, it's not that big of a concern in Ring. In PSA, I've spoken to many decoys who have told me that they check out the competitors beforehand, and their goal is to "run" every dog that comes on the field....and they tend to be able to tell which ones they CAN run....

However, in PSA the judge will typically ask the decoy for the attack on handler and courage test how full the grip was (1/2, 1/4, 3/4, etc). The decoy is typically the judge of it.

I've also spoken to several trainers in each sport, and some in each said they don't put emphasis on the fullness of the grip at all...personally, I want my dog to have a full grip. However, in a trial situation, it is almost impossible to get a full grip...
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Postby luvmypitties » January 8th, 2007, 5:17 pm

On January 08 2007, 12:33 PM, katiek0417 wrote:
On January 08 2007, 10:29 AM, luvmypitties wrote:I am talking to the training clud Sassafras K9 training. Here is their site http://www.sassafrak9.com/index.htm . I want to first make sure that I like the stuff that they do and how they handle the dogs. There is another one in VA but it is 2 hours away. I emailed sassafras and asked them some general questions about their training so i will see what their response is.

I know therapy work wont come til the dog is older and has calmed down a bit.I mean this is still way a head in the future. He is still very young!!!


Sassafras is owned by Ricky Galloway. He's a great guy, and he's a good trainer. He owns 2 nice dogs: Rex and Rocket. Rex is a dog that my boyfriend used to own. Very sound, but a good worker. Also social, even with decoys around. Rocket is a full brother to my boyfriend's female (who just had puppies). I don't know a ton about Rocket, but I can tell you that Asja has one of the best temperaments I've ever seen (she's the one I was talking about in my previous post about sitting with a little girl while watching bitework)....

Rick used to train with Joe Morris (co-founder of PSA), as well as my boyfriend. I've only trained with him twice, but have spoken to him many times on the phone and via IM (he is also very good friends with my boyfriend). When I used to get frustrated with my boyfriend's training ideas (before he was my boyfriend) I would get a lot of advice from Ricky. He understood that my dogs were NOT ONLY working dogs, but also pets, and had to act appropriately as such. He is also a decoy who is very skilled with catching and working dogs. When I went down there, he had a good mix of dogs, but I remember that he worked well with the pitties (there are several in his club)....

I HIGHLY recommend Ricky as a trainer!!! I think you'll like him....and, tell him that you know me (Katrina - actually, I don't remember if he called me Katie, or not, but if you tell him Katrina, Greg's girlfriend, he'll know exactly who I am).


Awesome well then i will look into him more. As I would like to accomplish many things with my new boy!!! And learning obedience skills is the first and most important!! Thanks very much for the recommendation.
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RIP my precious Noah! You are greatly missed and still so loved!!! 7-12-06-- 2-21-07
RIP Abby! I always loved you!
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