Salmonella, Salmonellosis and Raw eggs

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Postby msvette2u » August 26th, 2006, 9:09 pm

This is from another board, with permission from the poster. It has not been modified in any way.
With recent discussion of raw eggs, I thought some might find it helpful.

Raw egg: Reversing myself

So I'm back in school and as part of a take home final from heck I had to prove causation between Salmonella serovar typhimurium and gallbladder abscess, sepsis and mental confusion using Bradford Hill Criteria for causation. As a result, over the past week I've read about 30 different peer-reviewed journal articles on all aspects of Salmonella and Salmonellosis.

As a result I am no long going to feed my dogs raw eggs. There are too many emergent MULTI DRUG RESISTANT salmonella strains out there, and the biggest and brightest pool of contamination is....drumroll...raw and undercooked egg and egg products. Microbial contamination I take as part of life - multidrug resistant microbial contamination is a whole nother story.

So I am officially reversing my position on raw eggs. I will henceforth cook the living tar out of them. And absolutely no freakin shells.

Paula
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Postby Magnolia618 » August 26th, 2006, 9:20 pm

Salmonella has also been found in many kibbles :wink:
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Postby cheekymunkee » August 26th, 2006, 9:20 pm

Got links? :| Is this study in regards to humans or canine? If you don't want to feed eggs to your dogs, don't. No one cares. I don't know ( or I guess I do) the reason for this thread but if it turns out like some of the others have, it will not be pretty.
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Postby Magnolia618 » August 26th, 2006, 9:22 pm

What Debby said.
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Postby msvette2u » August 26th, 2006, 9:32 pm

Actually Paula has offered to send them in PDF file format, if anyone would like to see them.
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Postby Purple » August 26th, 2006, 9:35 pm

I saw this over at bull breeds.
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Postby chewbecca » August 26th, 2006, 9:36 pm

I read that exact same post.
The way I look at is, nothing is COMPLETELY safe.
If Ella would eat raw eggs, she'd get them.

Besides, I thought that bacteria didn't really effect dogs due to them digesting food too fast for the bacteria to be able to set in and cause any trouble.
I could be wrong.
SOOOO many people have fed raw eggs and NEVER had a problem.
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Postby Magnolia618 » August 26th, 2006, 10:02 pm

Besides, I thought that bacteria didn't really effect dogs due to them digesting food too fast for the bacteria to be able to set in and cause any trouble.
I could be wrong.


Nope! You're right!
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Postby msvette2u » August 26th, 2006, 10:50 pm

chewbecca wrote:I read that exact same post.
The way I look at is, nothing is COMPLETELY safe.

Nope, nothing is, everything comes with risks. Sometimes risks outweigh benefits, and sometimes the other way around.
I just think people need to be aware of possible dangers and not be led to believe everything is completely safe, either. That way they can make an informed decision!
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Postby SpiritFngrz » August 27th, 2006, 9:28 pm

I could review the articles as an unbiased third party.
Sepsis is my specialty :)

Even though something gets published, doesn't mean it is gospel. Depending on the journal and the way the studies were conducted would weigh on whether I would believe the conclusion or not.
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Postby msvette2u » August 27th, 2006, 9:53 pm

email me (alphamom33@aol.com) and I'll send you what I've gotten so far!
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Postby Maximus » August 29th, 2006, 7:43 am

I think it's also crucial to know whether this research / finding is based on human studies. Because the risks and benefits are entirely different. An answer, maybe? Any indication?

Otherwise, no, it isn't helpful. :|
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Postby mnp13 » August 29th, 2006, 10:28 am

for this to be a all valid it would have to be research done on healthy dogs. Healthy is important - most of the human research on "protein being bad for the kidneys" is based on studies with people who already had kidney imparment.

If dogs aren't affected by the salmonella that is generally on raw chicken, why would eggs affect them?
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Postby cheekymunkee » August 29th, 2006, 10:51 am

As long as I have had dogs, I have fed them raw eggs, not always the SHELL but the egg. My dad did the same thing for the 70 years he was alive. None of them ever got sick from eating them. And I am talking a LOT of dogs here, not just one or two. My dad had an egg farm so we always had plenty of eggs to feed the dogs and they ate raw eggs almost daily, along with fresh chicken. Thousands of people do it every day, if it was such a problem, I do believe we would have heard about it before. I don't buy it.
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Postby SisMorphine » August 29th, 2006, 11:01 am

cheekymunkee wrote:As long as I have had dogs, I have fed them raw eggs, not always the SHELL but the egg. My dad did the same thing for the 70 years he was alive. None of them ever got sick from eating them. And I am talking a LOT of dogs here, not just one or two. My dad had an egg farm so we always had plenty of eggs to feed the dogs and they ate raw eggs almost daily, along with fresh chicken. Thousands of people do it every day, if it was such a problem, I do believe we would have heard about it before. I don't buy it.

Those are some lucky dogs your family had! Wally would kill to live on a chicken farm. Literally :wink:
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Postby cheekymunkee » August 29th, 2006, 11:05 am

Oh, some of them did. :) Luckily for them, the chickens were kept very secure but every once in a while one of them would venture out..........but not for long :choke:
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Postby Big_Ant » August 29th, 2006, 11:15 am

cheekymunkee wrote:Oh, some of them did. :) Luckily for them, the chickens were kept very secure but every once in a while one of them would venture out..........but not for long :choke:

You choked the chicken? :D

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Postby cheekymunkee » August 29th, 2006, 11:20 am

Well, we won't talk about THAT but that is how they looked when the dogs grabbed them. :P
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Postby Big_Ant » August 29th, 2006, 11:24 am

On Topic: I agree with Cheeks, I've fed raw eggs my entire life, as well as my parents doing the same, never had a problem.

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Postby msvette2u » August 29th, 2006, 11:53 am

Ages ago things were done much differently on a farm than they are now. These days eggs come from "battery hens". These days E. coli is more rampant than ever due to mass production. Who KNOWS what's in and on the meat we eat?

http://www.vetmed.wisc.edu/pbs/zoonoses ... nella.html

If you're fine with the potential dangers involved, more power to you!
The role of dogs and cats in zoonotic transmission:
Salmonella infections in dogs and cats deserve special comment for several reasons related to zoonotic transmission:
Salmonella spp. can be isolated from healthy dogs and cats at rates of up to 36% and 18%, respectively.
Dogs and cats tend to shed Salmonella organisms for very prolonged periods of time after infection.
Dogs and especially cats can shed Salmonella organisms in both their feces and saliva, meaning that transmission can occur via licking.
Pig ear dog treats may be a source of Salmonella infection for both dogs and humans that handle the treats.
Dogs and cats may suffer salmonellosis as a "reverse zoonosis," with infection transmitted from human-to-dog and subsequently back to other humans.
Similarly, outbreaks of Salmonella infections in large animal teaching hospitals have been linked to the introduction of bacteria from infected human personnel, with subsequent spread to animals and then back to other human workers.

http://www.salmonella.org/faq.html#q10
Q: I'm researching a diet for dogs that feeds Raw Chicken backs and necks. My biggest concern was the Samonella, yet I'm being told that Salmonella doesn't affect dogs in a negative way. Is there any place that you know of where I could research this more in-depth. Also, I what is the most effective cleaning agent to kill the bacteria on my counters. I've been using hot soapy water with a splash of bleach. Will this be sufficient to keep the kitchen sterile?.....

Thank you so much for your time.

A: It is not clear that Salmonella does not affect dogs in a negative way. Most dogs do not get serious Salmonella infections, but that is probably because they do not usually get large doses of infected food/water as might occur if fed raw chicken. Furthermore, dogs can be carriers of Salmonella. so infected dogs can be a serious risk for human health. (Also note that raw chicken may lead to Campylobacter infections as well as Salmonella infections.)

There is ample epidemological evidence that dog feces may be an important source of environmental contamination, and spread of Salmonella to humans (try a search of PubMed for the keywords Salmonella AND dog). One reference directly related to inclusion of raw chicken in dogfood is:

Can Vet J 2002 Jun;43(6):441-2 Preliminary assessment of the risk of Salmonella infection in dogs fed raw chicken diets. Joffe DJ, Schlesinger DP.

Also note the following reference that mentions the incidence of disease in dogs:

Vaccine 2002 Feb 22;20(11-12):1618-23 Immunogenicity of chi4127 phoP- Salmonella enterica serovar Typhimurium in dogs. McVey DS, Chengappa MM, Mosier DE, Stone GG, Oberst RD, Sylte MJ, Gabbert NM, Kelly-Aehle SM, Curtiss R. "Salmonellae are commonly isolated from dogs. The number of dogs infected with Salmonella spp. is surprisingly high and greater than the incidence of clinical disease would suggest. Salmonellosis is common in greyhound kennels. Morbidity can approach 100% in puppies and the mortality ranges to nearly 40%."

Bleach is an effective disinfectant of the countertop, but it is essential that the area is thoroughly cleaned because the bleach may not effectively penetrate any dried residue.
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