Timberwolf Organics Dry Dog Food

Food, Fitness and how to keep them healthy.

Postby Maryellen » January 8th, 2006, 9:51 pm

Timberwolf Organics is a very good kibble for those that feed dry food. Its a little pricey, but the ingredients are all natural.

http://www.timberwolforganics.com
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Postby concreterose » January 11th, 2006, 1:12 pm

There is a very informative discussion going on at the nutrition list I subscribe to about Timberwolf. I guess apparently the meat in the food is not organic, so people are wondering why it is called Timberwolf 'Organics'. Does anyone here who feeds it know what the justification is for it being so expensive?
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Postby Maryellen » January 11th, 2006, 1:41 pm

really? hmmm. that figures.. i feed timberwolf.. i just went online and read every ingredient in all the dog food. nothing anywhere says Organic.. then i went on line to natural balance, and they have a separate line that reads organic, and the ingredients read, organic, hormone free oats, etc... why does it sound like the TW is not truly organic?? the only other reason i can see is that the TW doesnt really use the grains like other foods?? i am very very interested in this Millicent, as i have been feeding the TW for a long time now, and the price is so high.. maybe they are charging alot due to the name only??
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Postby Maryellen » January 11th, 2006, 1:43 pm

Natural Balance :
New! As fresh and healthy as the barley fields shown on our bags, Natural Balance Organic Formulas® are GMO free and never sprayed with pesticides. Natural Balance Organic Formulas® use only free-range, humanely treated, antibiotic and hormone free chicken, with a wide range of organic ingredients for the highest standard in nutrition for your dog. Certified Organic by Oregon Tilth. COMPLETE AND BALANCED FOR ALL BREEDS AND LIFE STAGES.

Product Information
Feeding Guidelines For Puppies
Feeding Guidelines For Adult Dogs
Guaranteed Analysis
Ingredients
Ingredients: Natural Chicken, Organic Brown Rice, Chicken Meal, Organic Oats, Organic Millet, Organic Barley, Organic Sorghum, Organic Potato, Organic Peas, Organic Canola Oil, Organic Flaxseed, Chicken Fat (Naturally stabilized with Mixed Tocopherols), Dicalcium Phosphate, Organic Carrots, Natural Flavor, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Phosphate, Sea Salt, Mixed Tocopherols, Organic Spinach, Organic Cranberry, Organic Tomato, Yucca Schidigera, , Dried Kelp, Organic Parsley, Organic Rosemary, Choline Chloride, Zinc Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Taurine, Manganese Sulfate, Niacin, Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2), Copper Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Acetate, Inositol, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B-6), Thiamin Mononitrate (Vitamin B-1), Vitamin D-2, Biotin, Potassium Iodate, Cobalt Sulfate, Vitamin K Supplement, Sodium Selenite.


Timberwolf Organics:
Black Forest:
Venison, Whole Ground Brown Rice, Lamb, Whole Ground Millet, Lamb Meal, Venison Meal, Whole Ground Barley, Low Ash Salmon Meal, Whole Ground Flaxseed, Carrot, Watercress, Spinach, Celery, Parsley, Fennel Seed, Wild Salmon Oil, Unrefined Walnut Oil, Atlantic Kelp, Alfalfa Leaf, Amaranth, Blueberries, Glucosomine, Potassium Chloride, Cranberries, Pears, Figs, Thyme, Anise Seed, Ground Cinnamon Bark, Fenugreek, Garlic Pieces, Sunflower Seeds, Apples, Chicory Root, Spirulina, Choline Chloride, Lecithin, Probiotics: (Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Lactobacillus Casei, Lactobacillus Lactis, Bacillus Bifidum, Streptococcus Diacetilactis, Bacillus Subtillus), Taurine, Mixed Tocopherols (a source of vitamin E), Lysine, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Thiamine, Methionine, Carnitine, Niacin, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Iodine Proteinate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Biotin, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine (a source of vitamin B6), Copper Proteinate, Selenium Proteinate, Cobalt Proteinate, Papain, Yucca Schidigera Extract.
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Postby Maryellen » January 11th, 2006, 1:45 pm

it seems to me, that the Natural Balance is Organic Certified, but the Timberwolf Organics is not certified organic...
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Postby Maryellen » January 11th, 2006, 1:59 pm

ok, so now Millicent you got me thinking.. i sent an email to TW asking if they are truly organic. here is the reply i got, now, i cant find the answer to my question below.. so i emailed them again asking why is their site not Certified by an organic company, and will post that answer once it comes:

Hello and thank you for your interest in our products! This letter
should answer 90% of all questions and in a much more timely manner
than waiting on a response from a live person. Do not be offended
that it is automated as it increases the efficiencey of our inquiry
responses. If after reading this response in its entirety you still
do not find your answer, there is an email link at the bottom of this
page to resend your question to. Please do not reply to this letter
as you will continue to receive automated replies.

Below are answers to our most commonly asked questions:

1. Which formula would you recomend for my xxx?

All of our foods are formulated for all life stages and as such are
suitable for any life stage your pet may be at. Our Black Forest
Venison is our lowest protein and fat formula, and is also our best
formula to be used for mixing in meat if this is what you desire, and
our Wild & Natural or Lamb w/Apples are probably our best formulas
for working dogs or puppies, but again, even then we recommend
rotating among all of our formulas.

All of our formulas are also perfect for 99% of all breeds, and some
of our customers have told us that our formulas have helped their
pets with certain conditions such as Pancreatic insufficiency,
panosteitis, kidney disease, etc., but at this time we do not offer
prescription diets e.g. diets for breeds with genetic disorders.


2. Could you tell me the kcals of your formulas?

The kcalories of each of our formulas are listed on their respective
description pages.

3. I would like to start putting my dogs on Timberwolf because of
everything I am hearing about it, but I am using a natural food now
with a protein/fat level of 24/14% (it is in a green and yellow bag)
that claims they are using 60% animal meals by weight. Isn't that
more than Timberwolf Organics foods if you are using 50% animal meals?

This is impossible for a number of reasons. We were actually using
54% animal meals by weight but at that level there is not enough
starch present and the kibble crumbled easily and would not stay
together. We lowered it to 47% so that the kibble would maintain its
shape and to increase the digestibility. A formula with 60% animal
meals would not be a kibble. Another reason is that at that level the
calcium would be above the maximum AAFCO limit of 2.5% (animal meals
are 3 - 8% calcium so the minimum level at 60% would be at least 1.8%
(very unlikely at 60% animal meals) plus whatever is added in the
mineral mix and from the other ingredients. Our formulas use VERY low
ash high protein animal meals and we do not add calcium to our
mineral mix and even so still average 1.5 - 2.0% calcium depending
upon the formula. Also, all of our animal meals are 69 - 71% protein
and are very expensive, but even if this company is using mediocre
animal meals at an average of 60% protein (the lower the protein, the
higher the ash in animal meals), the overall protein level would be
at least 36% (60% animal meals x 40lbs = 24lbs, x 60% protein of meal
= 14.4lbs of protein/40lb = 36% protein) plus a 1 - 3% from the other
ingredients = 38% protein. Our Serengeti Felid formula has that level
of protein and it is very very difficult (and expensive) to achieve
that high a level of protein while keeping ash levels down.


My guess is that at some point a customer asked this company what the
level of animal meals used were as a percent of weight. The company
officials asked their nutritionist what the percentage of animal
protein was. The nutritionist most likely replied that the percentage
of protein from animal sources (a common term in the industry) was
60% and the officials misunderstood and then made the claim that the
level of animal meals in their formula was indeed 60%. In comparison,
most of our formulas have over 91% of the protein is animal sourced.
Apples and oranges.

4. Why do you use walnut oil in some of your formulas? Aren't some
people allergic to walnuts? Why not use canola oil?

What people or any animal for that matter, is really allergic to when
they are allergic to anything, are proteins - proteins called
antigens. Oils do not contain antigens or proteins so if someone is
allergic to chicken or walnuts or corn for example, it does not
matter, they will not be allergic to chicken fat, walnut oil or corn
oil, or any other oil. Canola oil on the other hand, is one of the
worst oils to use for nutritional value. It is highly refined to rid
it of it's bitter taste and thus has lost most of it's vitamin
content and other nutrients. It is actually rape seed oil and at one
point was banned by the US government because of concerns that it
could damage heart tissue. However, after intense lobbying by the
Canadian government and farmers it was allowed into the US. Rape seed
oil at the time sounded politically incorrect and the name CAN(ada)O
(i)LA was coined.

Our walnut oil is unrefined and along with extra virgin olive oil is
one of the best oils available for its nutritive value as it is
relatively high in omega 6s, omega 3s and omega 9s and because they
are the only two commercially available unrefined oils, have
substances called phyto-nutrients still present. Unfortunately most
people are unaware of this unless they carefully research all
available data.

5. What steps are you taking to ensure that your meat sources and pet
foods remain safe from Mad Cow or BSE?

In January of 2002 our plant has discontinued the inclusion of all
beef, beef by products and beef fats in all formulas produced by the
plant.

The meat proteins or animal products incorporated in the formulas
manufactured are acquired from species specific processing plants.
These species are:

1. Chicken
2. Turkey
3. Lamb from New Zealand or Australia
4. Venison from New Zealand or Australia
5. Various Fish
6. Pork
7. Chicken Fats
8. Fish Oils

Also, our plant is one of the few plants that is APHIS (Agricultural
Plant Health Inspection Service) certified and the newer category
III. APHIS helps manufacturing plants meet all certification
requirements for export for example, to the EC which is extremely
difficult because of their stringent requirements of certification of
all ingredients.

Therefore, there is no possibility of any beef tissue or fats
included in, by design or by contamination, any products manufactured
by our pet food plant.


6. Where do I find the manufacture date of the food?

Our new bags will have the manufacture date printed on them.

7. What happened to your Prey Drive and Yukon Gold brands?

We will offer our Prey Drive and Yukon Gold formulas again once we
secure lower cost packaging.

8. My pet has xxx disease. Would you tell me what would help his
condition?

We cannot answer questions regarding specific diseases or symptoms
that your pet may have. Your veterinarian is best qualified to answer
questions of this nature.

9. Why is your food so expensive?

If you were to compare the price of our foods with other performance
based foods, even performance foods made with less expensive
ingredients such as corn or wheat etc., you will find that our foods
are priced very competitively to them. In fact, think of the best
possible pet food you can think of, then take their most expensive
performance or puppy based formula. Add to that the fact that we use
high levels (almost 50% by weight of dry food) of expensive
classified low ash high protein animal meals, walnut and salmon oils,
expensive gourmet restaurant quality herbs, spirulina, kelp, dried
fruits, antioxidants, expensive packaging, etc. We also do not use
low levels of these ingredients just to make the label look
attractive, but high levels that you can actually smell when you open
the bag and in results you can see in your pet in just a few weeks.
If we were to follow industry average margins, we would have to price
our foods at $65.00 - $70.00 per 33lb bag retail. However, by keeping
our overheads low such as no advertising spending, no coupons,
brochures, just in time inventory control, and by not giving terms or
credit to our distributors or sub distributors, and by paying cash to
our suppliers, we can offer an extremely expensive to manufacture pet
food at very competitive prices. In fact, if you really think about
it, our foods are actually a bargain. We do not make any profit on
our shipping rates, in fact we absorb the costs of packaging and
handling and only pass on the shipping charges. We do encourage our
shoppers to look at our "Where to buy" page as we realize that
shipping can be expensive to certain areas. We also offer very
liberal breeder discounts at participating retail outlets (or from
our web site if there are no dealers in your area) and business
opportunities to those so inclined and who wish to purchase in
volume. Please refer to those respective pages.

10. Nutrient levels

We also cannot answer questions regarding formulations, manufacturing
processes, nutrient levels, techniques or other information that we
consider proprietary in nature.

We formulate our food products to derive nutrients as much as
possible from the ingredients, and at levels in line with our
philosophies of what a prey animal would consist of with most of the
moisture removed, and at the proper levels and ratios determined by
the amount of amino acids, fats and other vitamins and minerals and
by what we have found achieves the best results as far as the health
of the animal including healthy skin, vibrant coat, rich
pigmentation, ears that stand on puppies of certain breeds, proper
bone structure, and the absence of conditions caused by the lack of
proper nutrition. Nutrient levels in our products are not dictated by
what someone might post on a mailing list or read on the internet and
are protected accordingly.

11. Fermented Meat Rolls

We are sorry about how long it is taking in bringing our Fermented
meat rolls to market but we are working fervently on them and are in
the final stages of testing and hope to have them ready for sale
shortly.



You may also wish to read our FAQ at: http://www.timberwolforganics.com/ccp51 ... pg=ste_faq

Most other questions can be answered by reading through our site
especially the following pages at: http://www.timberwolforganics.com/ccp51 ... p.cgi?&pg= ste_why http://www.timberwolforganics.com/ccp51 ... cp-app.cgi?
&pg=ste_wolflivingroom http://www.timberwolforganics.com/ccp51 ... cp-app.cgi?
&pg=ste_feeding http://www.timberwolforganics.com/ccp51 ... =ste_myths

You may also use our search engine in the right panel under "Quick
Links" to help you find answers to questions.

For a summary of our different business opportunity plans please
check here: http://www.timberwolforganics.com/ccp51 ... cp-app.cgi?
&pg=ste_business

If you still need more help than you may contact us at:
ineedmorehelp@timberwolforganics.com We will try to get back to you
as soon as possible.

If you are a dealer or distributor inquiring of our products please
contact us at: wholesale@timberwolforganics.com so that it will be
routed to the proper channels.


We hope that this letter has been helpful in answering your questions
and again, thank you for your interest in our products.

Sincerely,

Mark Heyward

On Jan 11, 2006, at 10:21 AM, maryellenswiatek@woodlandgroup.com wrote:

> The following information was just submitted via the Timberwolf
> Organics, Inc Contact Form.
>
>>
> Why is your food called Timberwolf Organics? what organic food do
> you put in the dog food??

You know Millicent, i never ever ever even questioned the TW name, and the ingredients until you mentioned this.. now i am really curious.. is it truly organics, or do they use the name Organics to play around with the public?? why would Natural Balance show on their site they are Certified organic? and TW not? is the Organic Seal easy to fudge? or is it a true, hard thing to get on your site??
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Postby cheekymunkee » January 11th, 2006, 2:22 pm

I don't know about with pet food but with human food they are not allowed to display that symbol or even mention Organic anywhere on the label unless it truly IS organic. IMO it should be the same way with pet food, it is truly misleading & for people who NEED to feed organic it could cause a lot of problems for their pets.
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Postby Maryellen » January 11th, 2006, 2:23 pm

thats what i am thinking too. the natural balance posts the Organic Seal for their separate line of organic dog food.. so i would believe they are organic.. to me, this means that the TW is not truly organic..
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Postby concreterose » January 11th, 2006, 3:22 pm

9. Why is your food so expensive?

If you were to compare the price of our foods with other performance
based foods, even performance foods made with less expensive
ingredients such as corn or wheat etc., you will find that our foods
are priced very competitively to them. In fact, think of the best
possible pet food you can think of, then take their most expensive
performance or puppy based formula. Add to that the fact that we use
high levels (almost 50% by weight of dry food) of expensive
classified low ash high protein animal meals, walnut and salmon oils,
expensive gourmet restaurant quality herbs, spirulina, kelp, dried
fruits, antioxidants, expensive packaging, etc. We also do not use
low levels of these ingredients just to make the label look
attractive, but high levels that you can actually smell when you open
the bag and in results you can see in your pet in just a few weeks.
If we were to follow industry average margins, we would have to price
our foods at $65.00 - $70.00 per 33lb bag retail. However, by keeping
our overheads low such as no advertising spending, no coupons,
brochures, just in time inventory control, and by not giving terms or
credit to our distributors or sub distributors, and by paying cash to
our suppliers, we can offer an extremely expensive to manufacture pet
food at very competitive prices. In fact, if you really think about
it, our foods are actually a bargain. We do not make any profit on
our shipping rates, in fact we absorb the costs of packaging and
handling and only pass on the shipping charges. We do encourage our
shoppers to look at our "Where to buy" page as we realize that
shipping can be expensive to certain areas. We also offer very
liberal breeder discounts at participating retail outlets (or from
our web site if there are no dealers in your area) and business
opportunities to those so inclined and who wish to purchase in
volume. Please refer to those respective pages.


Well I guess that answers the question about the price. Has nothing to do with the meat or supplements being organic though. I know that the meat I get from Bravo states that the meat is grass-fed and chemical and hormone free, but they don't call it organic. I know that in order to be certified organic there are some pretty stiff guidelines; no chemicals, pesticides or herbicides can be used anywhere in the facility or on the grounds, and the soil has to be free of chemicals for so many years (can't remember how many). The animals cannot be fed any genetically altered feed or feed that is not organically produced. I mean, it's not a big deal that Timberwolf is not organic as long as it's a good food, but he shouldn't have that in the name misleading people. ME, good luck getting a knowledgable answer from a customer service rep; Mark outsources his customer service dept., they aren't even in the same state that he is.

cheekymunkee wrote:I don't know about with pet food but with human food they are not allowed to display that symbol or even mention Organic anywhere on the label unless it truly IS organic. IMO it should be the same way with pet food, it is truly misleading & for people who NEED to feed organic it could cause a lot of problems for their pets.

Exactly. I was thinking the same thing...what if I decided to feed this to Pookie thinking it's organic and it's really not? This is why it is so important to read labels.
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Postby Maryellen » January 11th, 2006, 3:39 pm

grrrrrrr... he should not have the name organics in his food.. the natural balance organic shows a seal of organic approval.. and the ingredients read organic, hopefully they are organic.. unfortunately, with jesse being allergic to grains, i have to keep her on the TW because she does the best on it. i am wondering if the NAtural Balance Organic grains are better....
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Postby mnp13 » January 11th, 2006, 7:00 pm

They are not using the word 'organic' they are using 'organics' it's a fine line, but that's how they get away with it.

Every state has different laws to label things 'Organic' and nothing in that state can be labeled without that certification. Unfortunately what is organic in one state may not be in another.

The general certification states that the animals may not be fed any non-organic feed or treated with any synthetic antibiotics or hormones. Feed sources for the animals must be farmed organic for a certian amount of time as well. Vegetables must be farmed organic for a cretian amount of time as well.

There are 'transitional' soruces as well, which some states allow to be fed on a certian percentage.

Another important thing to note, is grain is NOT a natural food for cows or any other rumen. The meat quality is signifigantly different between cows fed the diet they are biologically suited for and ones that are fed what 'just makes them produce'
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Postby Maryellen » January 12th, 2006, 10:41 pm

i sent them 3 more emails and left a few messages.. no reply as of yet....
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Postby luvmyangels » January 17th, 2006, 5:13 pm

So have you heard anything further?
I am "The Rat Queen".

Have a great day!! :)

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Cookie & Knuckles
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The Rattie Bunch: Girls: Noodle & Raisin Boys: Gus, Melvin, Oliver, & Toby
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Postby Maryellen » January 17th, 2006, 5:49 pm

nope, they have not responded to me.:(
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Postby Patch O' Pits » January 19th, 2006, 10:19 pm

Mine love the Wilderness Elk and Salmon.

Though I am thinking about switching to Bravo pre-packaged Raw which may even be better
Patch O' Pits Pursuit-O-Perfection

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Postby Maryellen » January 19th, 2006, 10:20 pm

try the southwester chicken and herbs, its like doggy crack....
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Postby turtle » January 20th, 2006, 2:55 am

Maryellen wrote:try the southwester chicken and herbs, its like doggy crack....


Gee, I should buy smaller bags! I bought the big bag of the Bison and it's lasted 6 months... Now I have a big bag of Elk for her to start on, at this rate it will be a year before she gets to try the Chicken or the Ocean!

I have to say she loves this kibble and does great on it. I do feed half raw but she likes the kibble better than her raw (unless it's deer meat). I don't care what they call it and I don't care if it has "Organics" in the name, but I can see where that can be a bit misleading...
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Postby Maryellen » January 20th, 2006, 10:32 pm

ok, i was just reading on another forum that the timberwolf is made at a diamond plant?????????????
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Postby CinderDee » January 20th, 2006, 11:02 pm

What??? :eek1:
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