Collar comfort *update*

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Postby mnp13 » August 10th, 2006, 3:54 pm

a-bull wrote:That's what I was wondering.

I remember you not liking the training harness because it was a "tool" and you didn't think it actually trained the dog.

I was thinking if you use a prong or a choke or both on a dog, how does that teach him to ever walk nice on a flat collar, and how do you know when he can?


You transition. Correctly done, you are teaching the dog to do as it is told - that there are consequences for misbehavior. the training harnesses are control, not teaching.
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Postby rockermom » August 10th, 2006, 3:58 pm

How do we make them collar smart? In Rockys first training class beginner, they supplied me with a collar. It was like a fabric or nylon half collar with a martingale double d ring with chain looping through. When we got to novice Rocky was not listening as well nor responding well to corrections. This is when the trainer took my cotton leash and looped the handle through and put it around Rocky's neck showing me how I now had more controll. Later that class I was supplied with a choker made of fabric like a cotton rope choker. I did not want a chain which was offered as well. The minute this was put on him he behaved. THis collar stayed up high where the martingale style was not staying up and trainer was constantly reminding me to move collar up. I had not used that collar for like at least 7 months. But after noticing him getting red from regular collar I decided to bring it out and give it a try. He walks so nice with it and the slightest correction he walks tall. I have been using a martingale collar but it is all fabric no chain. I plan to continue using this style since he has discovered he can back out of flat collar. He can be nervous around new dogs in neighborhood and the last thing I want is him to back out. I would like to get him a nice leather collar but afraid of him being able to back out. Maybe if I get a nice leather collar it could be for ID and I could use like a slip lead to walk him with? I have seen some nice ones on my Dads agility site that are martingale style.
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Postby mnp13 » August 10th, 2006, 4:04 pm

Collar smart is a BAD BAD thing. It means the dog only listens when it has a particular collar on.

I was told that the way to help avoid the dog getting collar smart is to put the training collar on at least an hour before training and leave it on for the same amount of time afterwards. This way the dog is used to it being on and it is not a "cue" that it's time to behave.
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Postby a-bull » August 10th, 2006, 4:24 pm

Well, the training harness, like I've said, worked for me, but I also used commands.

So you're basically training through a negative consequence?

I'm just not a fan of choking off a dog's air supply to "teach" them . . . and although I have seen the rare dog trainer use a choke chain more as an audible correction---the chain chinking---most people just choke their dog. Just wasn't sure how the average person using a prong or a choke "transitions."
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Postby Magnolia618 » August 10th, 2006, 5:52 pm

I'm just not a fan of choking off a dog's air supply to "teach" them . . .


Prong collars certainly do NOT choke off a dog's are supply. They are built like martingales.
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Postby rockermom » August 10th, 2006, 5:54 pm

Oh I know what ya mean A-Bull. THats one reason I dropped the class. I hated seeing the dogs choked. And dragged. I tried the rope choke just that one day and he just walked nice without any corrections or just a slight tighten no choking just the placement of the collar on his upper neck seemed to be enough for him to walk nice. I am still using flat martingale on short walks. I use the harness for our usual long walks. But I was curious about the collar smart thing. Rocky wore that martingale with chain collar all the time. that was his collar. I took it off at bed time. Same with the other thing.
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Postby rockermom » August 10th, 2006, 5:58 pm

Oh and by the way. I did come up with a solution to the harness rubbing problem. I am using the GL CHEST HARNESS not a halti thing. On the strap that goes on the belly and under the pits I put the 2 fabric fuzzy protector sleves off of antoher harness. THis has worked great. Only causing a redness which he gets from anything touching his skin for long periods including flat collar.
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Postby a-bull » August 10th, 2006, 6:03 pm

Magnolia618 wrote:
I'm just not a fan of choking off a dog's air supply to "teach" them . . .


Prong collars certainly do NOT choke off a dog's are supply. They are built like martingales.


I said "choke chain," although I don't like prongs either---but that's just me. I know you guys don't like harnesses, so it's all good.
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Postby a-bull » August 10th, 2006, 6:07 pm

rockermom wrote:Oh I know what ya mean A-Bull. THats one reason I dropped the class. I hated seeing the dogs choked. And dragged. I tried the rope choke just that one day and he just walked nice without any corrections or just a slight tighten no choking just the placement of the collar on his upper neck seemed to be enough for him to walk nice. I am still using flat martingale on short walks. I use the harness for our usual long walks. But I was curious about the collar smart thing. Rocky wore that martingale with chain collar all the time. that was his collar. I took it off at bed time. Same with the other thing.


Yes, sadly, most people use choke chains completely wrong, and although more people seem to be able to use a prong o.k., plenty don't---and like I said regarding choke chains, I have watched police dogs trained on choke chains, but the choke chain was used strictly to get attention, no choking involved like you usually see with the average person using one.

So what I was trying to figure out was how, if most dogs are trained improperly on them, how they can ever transition to a regular collar. :|
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Postby Magnolia618 » August 10th, 2006, 6:15 pm

I'm not a big fan of choke chains because 99% of the people out there dont know what the hell they are doing and they can cause damage.

I used a choke chain for Maggie when she was in obedience classes. They can actually work very well, if they are used correctly.

Just for kicks, I took Trey out with a choke chain and he was heeling almost perfectly within minutes.

I do prefer prongs, though. I rarely have to use one on Maggie anymore. I just slowly phased it out. If we are going somewhere very crowded, I'll put the prong on her, but I usually end up taking it off. The only reason I really have it on her is because sometimes she likes to jump up on strangers :|
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Postby a-bull » August 10th, 2006, 6:20 pm

So you must be using them right then, if you don't even really need them any more---I'm good with that. :)

That's what I was trying to figure out---if most people don't use them right, which I agree with you on, how can they ever transition?

My female jumps to greet people on & off still. Jumping is a tough one to cure.
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Postby rockermom » August 10th, 2006, 7:20 pm

ughhhh jumping. It has gotten much better but never know when he will unexpectidly do it. Which is why I use that harness in puclic. works for me.
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Postby 04100824 » August 11th, 2006, 1:36 pm

a-bull wrote:I don't use prongs or chokes, so I'm just curious~

Will Reno always have to use a prong, choke or both to control him? What would he do if you just put a flat collar on and took him out for a walk?


No, he will walk politely on his 2" flat leather collar as well. We switch his collars up a lot - For example, his choke chain stays attatched to his leash, as we often loosen his leather collar while inside, so usually he is at least on a choke chain (but keep in mind - he doesn't pull, so it's not often used) however, on walks when we approach our friends or one of his doggie friends, I will switch him to his leather to play. I also have him on his flat collar sometimes for walks as well. The thing with the choke chain is that we don't actually use it for choking the way I've seen some poeple do...it's a quick jerk and release, much like the prong. He doesn't pull on the leash, so he isn't being choked all the time.

When he starts trying to pull us around, the pinch collar comes back for a couple of days, and then speratically for a week or so. (still occasionally on his flat) Again, this is a quick jerk - no dragging, no choking, and yes, it's a tad less effective by us doubling it with a choke, but then I'm not out to stab him to death, just get his attention. Also, it helps even out the area of the pull (though prong calllars really are a pretty even pressure), and again, is a safety measure if for some reason the links on his prong were to come apart. It's rare that we use this, though. Usually he is on a flat or choke.

We currently live in a 2-story apartment (til the end of this month! YAY!), so he spends a LOT of time on a leash, since every time he needs to go out he gets a mini walk. We also take him with us on car rides, walks, roller blading, etc. Repetition, environment differences, corrections and collar changes have all been great for his leash behavior. :wink:
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Postby rockermom » August 18th, 2006, 2:32 pm

A-bull- Since you seem one of the few to agree with my choice of walking collar (harness) I just wanted to let you as well as others know over the past few weeks I have been doing long walks on the Gentle Leader Easy Walk CHEST harness. It is not a head harness. I have been very pleased with our walks. Putting the fuzzy fabric stuff from another harness over the belly strap has helped keep Rocky from getting any sore spots. I dont feel this harness is controlling him since it does not keep him from pulling. If he gets too far ahead I just have to give a side tug on the leash and he goes back into heel. Around home he is walked on regular martingale collar and does fine on that. He seems more comfortable when walked on long walks with harness than the collar as do I. I just ordered a couple of leather collars from petsmart on clearance for 5 bucks. Have not gotten them yet. My only concern about using them is that he has discovered backing out of a flat collar when I gave him an outside bath hose down. Thanks everyone for your ideas and opinions. Next I would like to get a leather martingale.

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Last edited by rockermom on August 18th, 2006, 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby a-bull » August 18th, 2006, 2:39 pm

Aww, he looks so proud in his new get-up. :)

Thanks for the update! I say if it's working and you're not causing any physical or emotional harm, then good deal!! Different strokes for different folks . . . er, dogs . . . lol.
Last edited by a-bull on August 18th, 2006, 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby chewbecca » August 18th, 2006, 3:29 pm

hey!
I want one of those things!!

Where do you get them from?
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Postby rockermom » August 18th, 2006, 4:00 pm

chewbecca wrote:hey!
I want one of those things!!

Where do you get them from?


I got it in a local pet store. search dogpile/google for gentle leader easy walk. Lots of places have it. It is a bit expensive but so are most of these kinds of things. Rocky is wearing a medium. The only issue I have with it is having to adjust the tightness on the martingale in the front. But over time I have gotten use to it. And the strap that goes under the belly and arms was causing some redness but by putting some fuzzy fabric(whatever that stuff is that comes with other harness) over it has solved that problem. below is link to manufacturer very informative.
http://www.premier.com/pages.cfm?id=74
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Postby 04100824 » August 20th, 2006, 7:13 pm

One of our friends used one of those harnesses on their boxer, but I don't think they had one that was thr right size for him...he kept wiggling out.

It's a pretty neat concept, though...he'd get too far ahead, and a tug would whip him back around.
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