How does you Kibble Rate?? Very interesting Reviews

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Postby SisMorphine » May 30th, 2006, 9:59 am

odnarb wrote:
gf turtle wrote:I've not had time to read all the food reviews but I wish they did not have those 42% protein foods like EVO and Raw Instincts rated as the highest at # 6. Those foods have way to much protein to be healthy for a dog with long term feeding.



I feed Evo to one of my dogs, but I'm still skeptical about it. I see some that say it has to much protein, and some that say it's fine for a healthy dog.

I am curious, is there research either way?

I've always been confused by the term "too much protein." What are the effects of too much protein? And is it only protein in the dehydrated/baked/cooked form? I have never heard raw feeders say "man, my dog is getting too much protein" because it's most of their diet (not trying to get into a raw feeding discussion . . . just a basic observance).

I dunno . . . it just seems to me like protein is a good thing, but maybe it's just too stripped down in cooked form? Answers? Guesses? Anyone? Bueller?
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Postby Romanwild » May 30th, 2006, 10:05 am

I know what you're saying but with all info that corrolates with it I think it's as good as any.

I can also get California Natural and Innova Regular so I should be good to go.
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Postby SpiritFngrz » May 30th, 2006, 10:09 am

SisMorphine wrote:
odnarb wrote:
gf turtle wrote:I've not had time to read all the food reviews but I wish they did not have those 42% protein foods like EVO and Raw Instincts rated as the highest at # 6. Those foods have way to much protein to be healthy for a dog with long term feeding.



I feed Evo to one of my dogs, but I'm still skeptical about it. I see some that say it has to much protein, and some that say it's fine for a healthy dog.

I am curious, is there research either way?

I've always been confused by the term "too much protein." What are the effects of too much protein? And is it only protein in the dehydrated/baked/cooked form? I have never heard raw feeders say "man, my dog is getting too much protein" because it's most of their diet (not trying to get into a raw feeding discussion . . . just a basic observance).

I dunno . . . it just seems to me like protein is a good thing, but maybe it's just too stripped down in cooked form? Answers? Guesses? Anyone? Bueller?


To me, amino acids are amino acids. They are used for everything. So I don't see the "too much protein" argument either.
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Postby turtle » May 31st, 2006, 10:10 am

Romanwild wrote:I've been hearing that since it came out and no one has produced anything with real science behind it. Personally I don't beleive there is anything wrong with it short or long term. :|



The problems with EVO and any food with 42% protein has been discussed many times. I'm tired and bogged down with other problems and the last thing I want to do is to get into a big debate about EVO. But I would not feed it even if it were free and I feel strongly about that.

When I asked the distributor in my area, he said it was selling well and most folks mixed it with another food. I told him my concerns about the protein being to high and causing problems, but he shrugged it off by saying it was like feeding raw meat.

This kibble is no substitute for feeding raw. Raw meat has 70% moisture so it is not at all like this EVO food. And I sure can't see where many pet dogs need 42% protein. Maybe it is ok to feed for short times and mixed with another food or mixed with raw, I don't know. But I would not risk my dog's health to feed it.

The food is too new for there to be any long term studies done on it and to be honest, I would not trust the Natura Company that makes it 100%, they are the ones who had batches of tainted food a few years ago and denied any problem even though many dogs died from the bad food.

But there are several know instances of it being fed and causing problems. A lady on Pit Bull Pets changed over to EVO from feeding raw and both her dogs had a horrid time with the EVO. It made them sick, they drank tons of water, and she had to change them off the EVO within 6 months. I'd provide a link and quote it but PBP was hacked about a year ago and that thread disappeared so I can't show it. Too bad I did not copy her post...

And just recently on PBF there was yet another EVO thread:

One member's mother fed it for 6 months to her 2 dogs and had blood work done before changing to EVO and after feeding it for 6 months. I have asked her permission to post this and I may have to take it down if she is not happy about my posting it, like I said, my on line time right now is short! The results showed elevated kidney and liver functions. Why risk your dog's life for a fad food?

http://www.pitbullforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=42658


"My mom put her dogs on Evo at about 8 months, their kidney and liver finctions rose to the high side of normal and the vet had us take them off the food..everything returned to normal aftea few weeks.

IMHO this is not a good food to feed dogs unless yuou are willing to blood test them every six months to ensure they are not being harmed by the high protein content. It is also high in fat and some dogs cannot tolerate that ether..makes them gain weight and/or gives them loose stools."

-----------------------

"well I base my comments on blood tests done by my moms vet...she had tests before and after they were on the food. Normal before, elevated kidney and liver functions while on it..and back to normal after being taken off it...I think that is a little more conclusive than looking at their waist line...and my mom for the record fed her 40lb dogs 3/4 of a cup twice a day so she was not overfeeding them this food.

I think so me may do fine on it, my experience is you need to make sure to check your dogs kidneys if they are on this food..it is like peope who stay on Atkins in the induction period for life...it may not be the healthiest
choice.

I also do not believe that dogs do not needs grains and only need protein. They do not need corn and wheat which are known allergens, but veggies and whole grains are as good for them as they are for people...that is where their muscles get glycogen from so they have the stamina and endurence for their activities. Life and health is about balance and any extreme diets be they for dogs or people are never the answer...but that is just my opinion."

-----------------------------

"no worries they are fine now..they are shar peis..they were about 8 month
when she started them and 6 mnths later took them off"

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


And in closing, I will post two articles from a very knowledgeable person who has been in dogs for years and has a vast medical and working knowledge. This is posted with permission from the author:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I am astonished that a company at that level would create such a bass-ackwards feed. I would personally prefer to see 42% fat and 22% protein, as it would meet the needs of a performance dog much more accurately. Since this product is so UNnatural, I would heisitate to conduct a study on how many dogs will die of kidney failure by their owners reading the hype and switching to it.

It is criminally-dishonest to try to compare ANY dry kibble to feeding raw, whole animals.

Why?

Because raw muscle tissue is 70% WATER. You read that right, raw muscle tissue is 70% WATER. That means the actual protein-percentage that the muscle FIBER provides is in reality very low, in addition to which (in its raw state) said protein is fortified with ENZYMES and LOTS OF WATER to aid the animal in digesting it. Go ahead and read the label of any CANNED feed, with whole animal tissue, and you will see a very LOW protein content and a very HIGH water content to reflect the above.

In creating this "Evo" feed, Innova has actually created a feed that is exactly bass-ackwards from natural raw tissue ... by creating a very HIGH protein content and a very LOW water content ... with ALL OF THE DIGESTIVE ENZYMES BURNED OFF in the kibbling process. The effects of this totally bungled strategy will, quite literally, RAVAGE a dog internally trying to process this stuff.

The body NEEDS water, and it NEEDS enzymes, in order to process protein. Lots of water, lots of enzymes, and a modest amount of raw (not cooked) protein. By contrast, this "Evo" product has a ridiculous amount of protein, almost NO moisture, and NO enzymes. How can that, in any way, or in any form of good conscience, be called "just like raw?"

Remember, the kidneys are a FILTRATION SYSTEM. Undigested protein gets passed THROUGH the kidneys as nitrogeneous waste. In a normal, raw feed, the dog's body has very little protein that is "wasted," as it has plenty of enzymes to process the modest amount actually eaten, plus plenty of water to go with it to ease and facilitate the passing of any waste through the kidneys.

In this feed it will be just the opposite. There will be a tremendous amount of protein burdening the system, no enzymes to aid in digesting it, and virtually no water to assist the kidneys (filters) in passing the
nitrogeneos waste into the urine.

What do you think happens to any filtration system when it is over-burdened with content, and without enough water to help pass the particles through the filters? The answer is IT GETS CLOGGED-UP.

Well, what do you think happens to a dog when his kidneys (filters) get clogged-up with too much protein? The answer is he begins to go into KIDNEY FAILURE.

It is my personal opinion that anyone would be wise to steer clear of this UNnatural feed, and I would also steer clear of the company that makes it too ... as the Natura company clearly has no moral conscience in its
manufacturing and marketing of this product.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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Postby turtle » May 31st, 2006, 10:12 am

And one more article on high protein kibble posted with premission:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

You must remember that kibbled feed is not a natural diet to a dog. Raw, whole animals is the natural diet dogs were intended to eat. We humans typically eat meat that is cooked, but that is still moist, so we get a lot of moisture and even some of the remaining enzymes inherent in meat, that helps our bodies PROCESS the protein.

In kibbled feed, there is no such thing. The kibbling process robs the protein of virtually all moisture, and it destroys the valuable enzymes inherent in (what was once) raw tissue, but is now cooked meal. you must
remember that raw animal tissue is 70% water, which aids a carnivore in processing it, most especially the kidneys. The kidneys are a filtration system, and that 70% water in natural meat is what is needed for them to
filter OUT the excess protein you speak of.

Well, in kibbled feed all that water has been removed, so you have basically concentrated matter, unnatural matter, that the dog is given and expected to digest. The natural, helpful enzymes have been destroyed in the kibbling process, and the natural, helpful water has been removed in the process ... and so you have this highly-concentrated protein matter that this dog is expected to digest.

When you come to understand this, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that a SUPER-high concentration of dry, processed feed ... with no helpful enzymes or water in there ... is a BURDEN to the kidneys, forcing them to work harder to process the extra protein. Over time, this constant stress on the animal's kidneys will ultimately lead to their failure to function correctly, and the natural result of kidney failure is first suffering, and then death.

This is why (if you must feed kibble) to feed a high-quality, easily digestible kibble ... LOWER in protein, but where the protein is high-quality (not glutens, soy, etc.) ... and then to add water with the meal to aid in the digestion. There is no kibble that is better than feeding raw, whole animals ... but there are some kibbles that are so bad they will literally kill dogs quickly ... and there are other brands of kibble that are so well-made that they are excellent for your dog.

Canidae is one of the kibble forms that is excellent for your dogs, because the protein SOURCES are excellent, the protein AMOUNTS are moderate, and there are subsequently-added enzymes and probiotics that aid your dog in digesting the high-quality, moderately-given proteins all the more.

And neither Diamond nor Exceed (nor most other feeds) can make such a statement. Their protein sources are either inferior, too high, or buffeted with too many carbs ... or all of the above ... and as such will slowly kill your dogs over time.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

There is all my info on why 42% protein is unhealthy for a dog... You all can do as you want and I will not argue, it's your dog after all. We all have our opinions, LOL. :|
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Postby SpiritFngrz » May 31st, 2006, 10:22 am

No one here was arguing for Evo, so really I don't think anyone was interested in getting into an Evo debate :|
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Postby mnp13 » May 31st, 2006, 10:26 am

I had Ruby on EVO for 6 months. She had blood work done immediately before she started it and immediately after I took her off. there was no signifigant change in any of the numbers. I took her off of it because we were trying to keep both Connor and Ruby on the same food and his coat was dull on the EVO.

NO, coat does not necessarily indicate a good food, but it definately indicates a bad one.
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Postby SpiritFngrz » May 31st, 2006, 10:37 am

My question was because I haven't seen any scientific evidence to back up this claim. The other difference between raw and kibble is that-surprise- the kibble is cooked. So what does that do to the protein? It denatures it. Instead of having whole amino acid chains that equal protein, you now have peptides broken down into amino acids, so I don't officially buy that all this denatured protein can "clog up" the kidneys.

In addition, how can it be concluded that the problems the dogs were having were due to the protein content of the food? Elevated LFTs and kidney functions can be caused by a variety of things such as infection.

I apologize I am taught to be skeptical about everything.
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Postby Maryellen » May 31st, 2006, 10:40 am

should i be worried that the parent company of evo also makes California Natural? which is what i have one of my dogs on? or should i be oksince the protein level on the CA Nat is only 22%?
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Postby mnp13 » May 31st, 2006, 10:45 am

If someone can find my post on PBF about EVO that would be great. I think I posted all of the numbers from Ruby's bloodwork
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Postby SisMorphine » May 31st, 2006, 10:53 am

SpiritFngrz wrote:My question was because I haven't seen any scientific evidence to back up this claim. The other difference between raw and kibble is that-surprise- the kibble is cooked. So what does that do to the protein? It denatures it. Instead of having whole amino acid chains that equal protein, you now have peptides broken down into amino acids, so I don't officially buy that all this denatured protein can "clog up" the kidneys.

In addition, how can it be concluded that the problems the dogs were having were due to the protein content of the food? Elevated LFTs and kidney functions can be caused by a variety of things such as infection.

I apologize I am taught to be skeptical about everything.

Yeah after reading the above I was wondering the same thing . . . which is good because I don't have a scientific background and you do, so I'm not totally off :)

I would love to see the side by side breakdown of raw protein vs. the kibble-cooked protein.

Sidenote: there is the same amount of protein in a piece of cardboard as there is in a piece of steak. The difference is that we cannot breakdown the protein in the cardboard. Doesn't really have much to do with anything, just an interesting fact I picked up in class.
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Postby turtle » May 31st, 2006, 2:02 pm

SpiritFngrz wrote:No one here was arguing for Evo, so really I don't think anyone was interested in getting into an Evo debate :|


Well there are some here who feed it and think it's ok... I was just remembering the recent "Raw Vs Kibble" debate that ended up getting hot and locked, that's why I said that I'm not gonna argue about it. :D
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Postby turtle » May 31st, 2006, 2:08 pm

Maryellen wrote:should i be worried that the parent company of evo also makes California Natural? which is what i have one of my dogs on? or should i be oksince the protein level on the CA Nat is only 22%?


No I don't think you should be worried about feeding the CA Natural. I fed CA Natural and Innova regular dog kibble for 2 years with no problems. It's the 42% protein in EVO that I feel is a concern. That's almost twice the normal range of 22% in their other food.

I know Pat (barbspony) knows a great deal about pet nutirution and health and she does not like the Natura Company one bit. They had a problem similar to what happened with Diamond a few months ago, but unlike Diamond, they admitted nothing even when dogs died from the food. At least Diamond stepped up and took some responsibility.
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Postby concreterose » May 31st, 2006, 2:09 pm

what about soaking high protein kibble in water before feeding...does that help any?
I am going to email the canine nutritionalist that I consult with and ask her about the protein amount in these grainless kibbles.
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Postby turtle » May 31st, 2006, 2:11 pm

mnp13 wrote:If someone can find my post on PBF about EVO that would be great. I think I posted all of the numbers from Ruby's bloodwork


Michelle, do you remember about when you posted all that? I sort of remember it but if you can give me a month & year or a closer date, I would try to find it. I'd imagine it was in the Health section?
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Postby mnp13 » May 31st, 2006, 2:18 pm

gf turtle wrote:
mnp13 wrote:If someone can find my post on PBF about EVO that would be great. I think I posted all of the numbers from Ruby's bloodwork


Michelle, do you remember about when you posted all that? I sort of remember it but if you can give me a month & year or a closer date, I would try to find it. I'd imagine it was in the Health section?


It would have been early 2005 I think. I was booted in May, so before that (obviously)
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Postby turtle » May 31st, 2006, 2:32 pm

SpiritFngrz wrote:My question was because I haven't seen any scientific evidence to back up this claim. The other difference between raw and kibble is that-surprise- the kibble is cooked. So what does that do to the protein? It denatures it. Instead of having whole amino acid chains that equal protein, you now have peptides broken down into amino acids, so I don't officially buy that all this denatured protein can "clog up" the kidneys.

In addition, how can it be concluded that the problems the dogs were having were due to the protein content of the food? Elevated LFTs and kidney functions can be caused by a variety of things such as infection.


Well, there probably is no scientific evidence at this time. I had looked for studies before and not found them and at the time I was told that the food was too new and they had done no long term studies on it.

Like I said, I would not trust the maker of a 42% protein food to step up and say it's unhealthy. But if it IS so healthy, why do they advise you not to feed it to puppies? The company specifically states not to feed it to puppies. Hummm...

If you read over again the 2 commentaries I posted, he outlines the problems quite well. EVO and it's contemporaries are cooked proteins and much harder to digest than raw meat. Raw meat is 70% water, dry kibble has no water.

And yes, kidney problems could be caused by other things like infections but I still can not see why 42% protein would be healthy for any dog. The person I know who wrote the 2 bits about high protein has been in dogs for about 20 years. He's more into the game dogs and has experience with conditioning a dog in a keep, and also knows many other dogmen who have put dogs thru keeps. He speaks from experience and what he's seen personally with dogs fed super high protein diets. Such diets have killed dogs and caused kidney damage in the dogs which have been on such a diet for any length of time. He has no reason to lie, he is not selling dog food. So I believe what he says about it.

And to me, it seems common sense. Why would any dog need 42% protein? Maybe a really hyper working dog that burns calories like mad... Odnarb's Harry the Malinois comes to mind. But even with such a dog, I'd still be careful and try to find another food to mix with it or feed half raw...
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Postby mnp13 » May 31st, 2006, 2:42 pm

Personally I don't buy the 'kidney problems' part of it. That is the same claim that they make about high protein diets for humans, but the studies used to back up that claim were done on people who already had kidney problems.

Ruby is pretty low energy and that food didn't change anything. She also had crystals in her urine not long after I got her, and they didn't repeat on EVO.
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Postby turtle » May 31st, 2006, 2:47 pm

concreterose wrote:what about soaking high protein kibble in water before feeding...does that help any?
I am going to email the canine nutritionalist that I consult with and ask her about the protein amount in these grainless kibbles.


Humm, interesting question! I'm sure soaking the kibble in water would help. I'd love to know what your nutritionist says about it... and about the use of potatoes and tapioca instead of grains to bind the food.

I soak my dog's kibble meal in warm water for several reasons. She's a spayed female and like many spayed females, she has a tendency to get bladder infections, plus I don't feel she drinks enough water on her own. Mixing her food with water is a way to get more water in her!

Plus I measured the other day and I am only feeding her 1/3 to 1/2 cup of Timberwolf kibble at night. That's not very much and looks pretty puny in the bowl... So by adding water, it swells up and it looks like she's getting a lot more food. She thinks so too...

And it's been proven that kibble that has soaked will not swell in the stomach (since it has already swelled) and thus there is less risk of bloat.

I've also read that it is a myth that dogs eating dry kibble have cleaner teeth. My dog chews raw bones to clean her teeth and she's got very nice white teeth for a 4 1/2 yr old dog.
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Postby SpiritFngrz » May 31st, 2006, 2:50 pm

I just got Innova for my cat (the regular kind) and for the heck of it I looked at the EVO bag....50% protein. :shock:

Yah, I don't know, maybe for some dogs, I don't know. I am still skeptical. :|
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