Food Report Card. (Whats your food's score?)

Food, Fitness and how to keep them healthy.

Postby Magnolia618 » May 26th, 2006, 9:40 pm

msvette2u wrote:
Was this written for dogs or for humans?

Rice = CHEAP. That is why dog food companies use it. Dogs. do. not. need. rice. It is a filler.



I found it on TIMBERWOLF's website...you recommended it so I thought I'd check out the ingredients.

http://www.timberwolforganics.com/cgi-b ... ngredients


yes, many high quality kibble has brown rice in it.

ALL KIBBLE HAS FILLERS IN IT.

My point about kirkland, is that it is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too many fillers in it.
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Postby cheekymunkee » May 26th, 2006, 9:41 pm

cheekymunkee wrote:
msvette2u wrote:Wilderness Elk
Elk, salmon, millet, sweet potatoes.


Wow millet is third on this list. Plus it's not "Elk meal" which means elk is further down than the millet, once cooked?

Dakota Bison
Bison, salmon, millet, sweet potatoes, oats.

Ditto this one...


Now, THIS is getting ridiculous. IF you HONESTLY think what you feed is so great, why down the OBVIOULSY better foods? Just for something to argue about?

What about Innova Evo?
Innova Dog?
Canidae?
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Postby msvette2u » May 26th, 2006, 9:43 pm

cheekymunkee wrote:
msvette2u wrote:Wilderness Elk
Elk, salmon, millet, sweet potatoes.


Wow millet is third on this list. Plus it's not "Elk meal" which means elk is further down than the millet, once cooked?

Dakota Bison
Bison, salmon, millet, sweet potatoes, oats.

Ditto this one...


Now, THIS is getting ridiculous. IF you HONESTLY think what you feed is so great, why down the OBVIOULSY better foods? Just for something to argue about?

What about Innova Evo?
Innova Dog?
Canidae?


How are they "better"? The ingredients are different is all. They all have meat and grain. If it's millet, brown rice, or rice.

BTW I remember someone mentioning that the more millet is used, the more dogs are getting allergies to it.

I think the only difference is people's perception. They think of millet as being a better thing, when it isn't really.
Michelle has pointed out on this board, not once but many times, that chicken MEAL is better as the first ingredient than chicken (for instance) because when cooked, the chicken moves down the list.
I'm asking, does elk move DOWN the list too, when cooked, when if they used Elk MEAL it would stay #1?
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Postby cheekymunkee » May 26th, 2006, 9:45 pm

The ingredients are different is all Uhh, yeah, they are BETTER

HUMAN GRADE meat.
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Postby LindsaySF » May 26th, 2006, 9:46 pm

cheekymunkee wrote:
msvette2u wrote:Wilderness Elk
Elk, salmon, millet, sweet potatoes.


Wow millet is third on this list. Plus it's not "Elk meal" which means elk is further down than the millet, once cooked?

Dakota Bison
Bison, salmon, millet, sweet potatoes, oats.

Ditto this one...


Now, THIS is getting ridiculous. IF you HONESTLY think what you feed is so great, why down the OBVIOULSY better foods? Just for something to argue about?

What about Innova Evo?
Innova Dog?
Canidae?

I think what we're talking about here though is which food is better. That's the whole point of this thread right, to discuss how the different foods compare to each other?

Canidae and Timberwolf are definitely more expensive, but what exactly makes them better? We've been discussing beet pulp and the possible myths associated with it, and I learned something that I didn't know before about vitamin K3.

I'm not saying my food is perfect, neither is msvette2u. Why is it an argument if we disagree? :|


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Postby Magnolia618 » May 26th, 2006, 9:47 pm

Yvette, if you choose to feed low quality kibble, go ahead. But you CANNOT deny that there arent higher quality kibbles out there.

The ingredients are different is all?

Please. Spare me the bullshit.
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Postby cheekymunkee » May 26th, 2006, 9:47 pm

Check the ingredients yourselves, I know you can do a search. They all have websites with ingredient lists.
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Postby LindsaySF » May 26th, 2006, 9:51 pm

Magnolia618 wrote:My point about kirkland, is that it is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too many fillers in it.

What is different between Timberwolf and Kirkland that bothers you? Is it the beet pulp?

Because there's all sorts of seeds and bark and stuff in Timberwolf. What is the purpose of ground cinnamon bark? I've never heard of that before. :shock:


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Postby LindsaySF » May 26th, 2006, 9:53 pm

Magnolia618 wrote:Yvette, if you choose to feed low quality kibble, go ahead. But you CANNOT deny that there arent higher quality kibbles out there.

The ingredients are different is all?

Please. Spare me the bull.

I'm genuinely trying to get information here....

What exactly makes a grain "bad" or "good"? It seems like both Kirkland and Timberwolf have a number of fillers. Which fillers are better?


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Postby msvette2u » May 26th, 2006, 9:54 pm

LindsaySF wrote: What is the purpose of ground cinnamon bark? I've never heard of that before. :shock:


~Lindsay~


lol
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Postby cheekymunkee » May 26th, 2006, 9:55 pm

msvette2u wrote:
LindsaySF wrote: What is the purpose of ground cinnamon bark? I've never heard of that before. :shock:


~Lindsay~


lol


What do you find so funny?
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Postby LindsaySF » May 26th, 2006, 10:06 pm

I really don't get it.

Is bark a good fiber? I've just never heard of it before.


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Postby cheekymunkee » May 26th, 2006, 10:07 pm

If I am not mistaken ALL cinnamon comes from bark. You can buy it in health food stores & grind it yourself.
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Postby cheekymunkee » May 26th, 2006, 10:08 pm

cheekymunkee wrote:If I am not mistaken ALL cinnamon comes from bark. You can buy it in health food stores & grind it yourself.


And I am not

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnamon
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Postby concreterose » May 26th, 2006, 11:16 pm

It is not true that dogs and cats cannot use grains. Some grains are more nutritious than others and while meat is the preferred food of choice, grains can be fed to supplement and the nutrients from them will be absorbed, they are not just empty fillers; to state this as fact is erroneous.
From Dr. Pitcairn's Complete Guide to Natural Health for Dogs and Cats by Richard H. Pitcairn, D.V.M., Ph.D. & Susan Hubble Pitcairn
(Emphasis in bold is mine)

"Whole grains are a very cost-effective and environmentally sensitive way to provide the mainstay of your pet's diet. Not only do grains supply carbohydrates and an array of vitamins and minerals, they are inexpensive sources of protein as well. When a grain is combined with other grains, the biological effectiveness of its protein is greatly enhanced because the balance of amino acids is more complete. According to official standards, carbohydrates may properly supply over half of the diet for dogs and cats, on a dry weight basis.

Grains are the one group of foods that definitely should be cooked. Usually, wild carnivores eat these foods only if they appear in the stomach of their prey, thus the grains are partially digested already. Because the intestinal tracts of dogs and cats are much shorter than those of cereal-eating animals like cows and horses, grains fed to dogs and cats need to some predigestion (in the form of cooking).

To save both time and energy, we emphasize quick-cooking and economical grains-oatmeal, cornmeal, millet and bulgar. They are well accepted by most dogs and cats and are high in nutrition. For example, oats and bulgar are loaded with protein, and millet is rich in iron.
Larger grains like rice and whole wheat berries or barley are best used with dogs. Unless these larger grains are mashed, cats tend to pick them out. Crumbled whole wheat bread is a quick and convenient ingredient when preparing food for a cat or small dog, but it's too expensive to use regularly for feeding large dogs. Amaranth, whole wheat couscous, buckwheat, quinoa, and spelt-all highly nutritious grains-are beginning to make their way into the American diet" (Pitcairn, 2005, 28-29).
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Postby cheekymunkee » May 27th, 2006, 12:06 am

Cinnamon bark is widely used as a spice. It is principally employed in cookery as a condiment and flavouring material, being largely used in the preparation of some kinds of desserts, chocolate and spicy candies and liqueurs. In the Middle East, it is often used in savory dishes of chicken and lamb. In America, cinnamon and sugar are often used to flavor cereals and fruits, especially apples. It can also be used in pickling. In medicine it acts like other volatile oils and once had a reputation as a cure for colds. It has also been used to treat diarrhea and other problems of the digestive system [1].

Cinnamon is high in antioxidant activity (PMID 16190627, PMID 10077878). The essential oil of cinnamon also has antimicrobial properties (PMID 16104824). This property may allow cinnamon to extend the shelf life of foods.
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Postby turtle » May 27th, 2006, 12:41 am

Good thread! Thanks to those who posted the interesting links at the beginning.

A few random comments... Even a high quality kibble like Timberwolf has to have some grain in it to hold it together once it is cooked. If it is made with just meat, it will not hold together and crumble. So in a way it is not a "filler" per se such, unlike many kibbles. TW uses millet, barley and oatmeal in their foods instead of rice and corn.

The so called "grain free" kibbles substitute potato or tapioca as a binder. Potato and tapioca are both starches and really is not a good thing to have in dog food. Plus the protein levels of 42% in EVO and Raw Instinct are way too high to be healthy for a dog diet. Those are touted as high quality expensive kibbles yet they are not very healthy to feed a dog for any length of time.

There was a similar discussion a few months ago on a different forum that I am on. I'll have to go see if I can find it and/or my notes to see what else I can add to this topic.

Going from memory, TW has a higher meat percentage than just about any kibble I researched, something close to 46% meat meal content after processing. Nature's Variety (Prairie) was next with 40%, and Canidae has 36% meat meal after processing. I have emails from the makers about this since I was in a discussion elsewhere some months ago. Thus those 3 kibbles have quite a bit more meat content than most dry kibbles.

I've fed mid quality kibbles and many of the high quality ones. I have seen a difference in my dog's health when fed Timberwolf and yet another step up for her healthwise when I began feeding half raw along with the TW.
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Postby Maximus » May 27th, 2006, 1:34 am

You guys do know that at a certain point, you're just arguing to be arguing, right?

I think the basic nutrition principles that are true for humans are true for most animals: the less processed the food, the better, no matter what you're feeding yourself or your dogs. Whole foods are just better, period. If I'm not mistaken, the self-regulated dog food industry is relatively young (especially if we are to look at the entire timeline of the evolution and domestication of dogs), and there's no question in my mind that it appeals to the same "values" that, say, the fast food industry does. It's parallel to the generalizations we can make about Americans' diets just by walking through the grocery store and looking at the shelves. We buy it dry, chemically preserved because it's convenient, its shelf-life is way longer than the individual ingredients would be, we take it home, tear open the bag, scoop out the unidentifiable food source into a bowl and we tell ourselves our dogs are getting everything they need. And it's true, a dog can live a long, disease-free life on even the grocery store-bought kibble. People can survive on a diet of McDonalds and Hoho's and TV dinners and diet soda, too, but it ain't exactly the best for them.

I am fairly certain that whole grains and various other plant foods do have nutritional value for dogs, but I bet they'd get more of that value if I, say, take that whole grain brown rice, cook it myself and give it to my dogs than if it's already gone through all of that processing that makes it, mixed with all those other "scientifically devised" ingredients, the kibble that comes out of a bag bearing ANY label. And brown rice is better than white, processed rice. And some grains are better than others. And the fewer chemicals and preservatives the better (and in general, the fewer ingredients the better). And a cow that eats grass is better for you than a cow that is fed hormones and animal meal (thank you, mad cow disease for that lesson!). Processing foods, breaking them down for mass production, strips them of a lot of the nutrients they would provide whole. Cooking food changes its chemical make-up. It really isn't that complicated. :|
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Postby cheekymunkee » May 27th, 2006, 1:45 am

gf turtle wrote:Good thread! Thanks to those who posted the interesting links at the beginning.

A few random comments... Even a high quality kibble like Timberwolf has to have some grain in it to hold it together once it is cooked. If it is made with just meat, it will not hold together and crumble. So in a way it is not a "filler" per se such, unlike many kibbles. TW uses millet, barley and oatmeal in their foods instead of rice and corn.

The so called "grain free" kibbles substitute potato or tapioca as a binder. Potato and tapioca are both starches and really is not a good thing to have in dog food. Plus the protein levels of 42% in EVO and Raw Instinct are way too high to be healthy for a dog diet. Those are touted as high quality expensive kibbles yet they are not very healthy to feed a dog for any length of time.

There was a similar discussion a few months ago on a different forum that I am on. I'll have to go see if I can find it and/or my notes to see what else I can add to this topic.

Going from memory, TW has a higher meat percentage than just about any kibble I researched, something close to 46% meat meal content after processing. Nature's Variety (Prairie) was next with 40%, and Canidae has 36% meat meal after processing. I have emails from the makers about this since I was in a discussion elsewhere some months ago. Thus those 3 kibbles have quite a bit more meat content than most dry kibbles.

I've fed mid quality kibbles and many of the high quality ones. I have seen a difference in my dog's health when fed Timberwolf and yet another step up for her healthwise when I began feeding half raw along with the TW.


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Postby cheekymunkee » May 27th, 2006, 1:48 am

Maximus wrote:You guys do know that at a certain point, you're just arguing to be arguing, right?

I think the basic nutrition principles that are true for humans are true for most animals: the less processed the food, the better, no matter what you're feeding yourself or your dogs. Whole foods are just better, period. If I'm not mistaken, the self-regulated dog food industry is relatively young (especially if we are to look at the entire timeline of the evolution and domestication of dogs), and there's no question in my mind that it appeals to the same "values" that, say, the fast food industry does. It's parallel to the generalizations we can make about Americans' diets just by walking through the grocery store and looking at the shelves. We buy it dry, chemically preserved because it's convenient, its shelf-life is way longer than the individual ingredients would be, we take it home, tear open the bag, scoop out the unidentifiable food source into a bowl and we tell ourselves our dogs are getting everything they need. And it's true, a dog can live a long, disease-free life on even the grocery store-bought kibble. People can survive on a diet of McDonalds and Hoho's and TV dinners and diet soda, too, but it ain't exactly the best for them.

I am fairly certain that whole grains and various other plant foods do have nutritional value for dogs, but I bet they'd get more of that value if I, say, take that whole grain brown rice, cook it myself and give it to my dogs than if it's already gone through all of that processing that makes it, mixed with all those other "scientifically devised" ingredients, the kibble that comes out of a bag bearing ANY label. And brown rice is better than white, processed rice. And some grains are better than others. And the fewer chemicals and preservatives the better (and in general, the fewer ingredients the better). And a cow that eats grass is better for you than a cow that is fed hormones and animal meal (thank you, mad cow disease for that lesson!). Processing foods, breaking them down for mass production, strips them of a lot of the nutrients they would provide whole. Cooking food changes its chemical make-up. It really isn't that complicated. :|


MORE :goodStuff:

You guys do know that at a certain point, you're just arguing to be arguing, right?


I think that point was passed 3 days ago.

It really isn't that complicated.


One would think. :|
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