Raw vs. Kibble debate

Food, Fitness and how to keep them healthy.

Postby Magnolia618 » May 23rd, 2006, 4:56 pm

But how do you know these are problems associated with a kibble diet? You have no evidence for that, you are just assuming it.

From certain kibbles? Yes. I have never said that some dogs dont do great on kibble. I dont have a problem if you feed a high quality kibble. I AM saying that alot of kibbles are unhealthy for dogs. AND I am saying that I believe that these problems are much less likely to occur on raw than on most kibbles (because most kibbles are crap...)



How old was the cat? How much was it being fed? How much exercise was it getting?


It was a DOG. (wow...) "It" was being fed.... 2 cups a day? Maybe 3? He was a 9 yr old GSHP. He got plenty of exercise.[/quote]

Did she get a skin scraping for mange? Do you know what it was that she had?

Yes. It was demodex mange.

I'm glad she is better, but you have no evidence whatsoever that it was the raw diet that did it. Sorry.


Maybe I dont have actual evidence in her case, but I do in another. A friend of mine has a dog who had a mild case of demodex. The dog was eating MERRICK. She switched the dog to raw, and POOF! No more demodex.

If she was allergic to something in the kibble, then replacing that kibble with another kibble that did not contain the ingredient she was allergic to would also have stopped her problems.

Yes, I'm sure she would have gone very well on a high quality kibble. I never said she wouldnt. I said that I fed raw to a dog with a compromised immune system, and it worked. :|
“Hatred is the coward's revenge for being intimidated.â€
User avatar
Magnolia618
I live here
 
Posts: 2435
Location: Onion, VT

Postby SisMorphine » May 23rd, 2006, 4:56 pm

cheekymunkee wrote:
LindsaySF wrote:
cheekymunkee wrote:I have been discussing the benefits of a raw diet with you & you feed THAT poop? I knew I was wasting my time.

Regardless of what he/she feeds, he/she has posted a number of good links and information valid to this debate.

You talk about ignoring posts, but I think some of Msvette2u's posts are the most ignored of all....


~Lindsay~


I have not ignored one post on this thread. BUT I will say this, if either of you know as much about dog nutrition as you claim, neither of you would be feeding what you feed. There are MUCH better kibbles out there that do not contain grade 4d meat, and you cannot prove your foods do not. Why do you not feed them better food?
:clap:
"All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another." -Anatole France
SisMorphine
They're like service dogs gone wrong.
 
Posts: 9231

Postby cheekymunkee » May 23rd, 2006, 4:58 pm

msvette2u wrote:
LindsaySF wrote:
cheekymunkee wrote:I have been discussing the benefits of a raw diet with you & you feed THAT poop? I knew I was wasting my time.

Regardless of what he/she feeds, he/she has posted a number of good links and information valid to this debate.

You talk about ignoring posts, but I think some of Msvette2u's posts are the most ignored of all....


~Lindsay~


The truth is hard to hear :|


And I am going to learn the "truth" from some one who feeds sub par foods?? THAT is funny, really ....it is.
There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.

Debby
User avatar
cheekymunkee
I Have Your Grass
 
Posts: 28540
Location: Dallas

Postby Magnolia618 » May 23rd, 2006, 4:58 pm

Dooby is my hero. :D

Amazingly, you guys tout the benefits of raw by saying your dog's coat is shiny.


GAH! I have said several times that a shiny coat has nothing to do with anything! Maggie had a shiny coat on shelter food!
“Hatred is the coward's revenge for being intimidated.â€
User avatar
Magnolia618
I live here
 
Posts: 2435
Location: Onion, VT

Postby LindsaySF » May 23rd, 2006, 4:59 pm

msvette2u wrote:For someone who whined for pages about "feeling attacked", you're doing pretty good at attacking!
Amazingly, you guys tout the benefits of raw by saying your dog's coat is shiny. If I say our dogs' coats are shiny you scoff and say they would be shinier if on raw.
What gives?? You can say "the proof is in the pudding" about your dog's appearance yet if I do, because I feed kibble, I'm full of it?

Sorry, but I have to agree with him/her here. :(


~Lindsay~
LindsaySF
Confident Young Bully
 
Posts: 490
Location: Prospect, CT

Postby Magnolia618 » May 23rd, 2006, 5:00 pm

How many times have we said that some dogs do great on crappy kibble? Some people are healthy and they smoke/eat McDonalds every day.
“Hatred is the coward's revenge for being intimidated.â€
User avatar
Magnolia618
I live here
 
Posts: 2435
Location: Onion, VT

Postby cheekymunkee » May 23rd, 2006, 5:01 pm

We have all said there are more benifits to raw than shiney coats. You can read, look up the posts, I refuse to yet AGAIN explain it to you.
There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.

Debby
User avatar
cheekymunkee
I Have Your Grass
 
Posts: 28540
Location: Dallas

Postby babyreba » May 23rd, 2006, 5:04 pm

OK, I still want to know why eating more nutritious foods won't help improve immune function?

One of many things I've been told by doctors (and vets!) my whole life is that improving the diet and reducing stress is key to improving immune function.
User avatar
babyreba
Supremely Bully
 
Posts: 1132

Postby LindsaySF » May 23rd, 2006, 5:05 pm

cheekymunkee wrote:I have not ignored one post on this thread. BUT I will say this, if either of you know as much about dog nutrition as you claim, neither of you would be feeding what you feed. There are MUCH better kibbles out there that do not contain grade 4d meat, and you cannot prove your foods do not. Why do you not feed them better food?

Sometimes it is not all about knowledge, and it is about MONEY. I don't feed a higher quality kibble because I can not afford it.

I said in my post about Kirkland that it is "mid-range". I know that. And they do get meat as treats, and dried chicken jerky treats as well (those things are VERY expensive!).

I have too many animals to be spending $60 on a bag of dog food, sorry. I try to give the best I can afford for all of my pets.

And one of my dogs, Cody, has Diabetes Insipidus as a result (we think) of head trauma. (And before you all jump on me about Diabetes, this is NOT sugar diabetes, that is Diabetes Mellitus). He requires twice daily medication that runs about $100 a month.

Now if any of you more fortunate people would like to send some money my way, I will GLADLY buy a bag of Canidae. :)


~Lindsay~
LindsaySF
Confident Young Bully
 
Posts: 490
Location: Prospect, CT

Postby msvette2u » May 23rd, 2006, 5:06 pm

babyreba wrote:OK, I still want to know why eating more nutritious foods won't help improve immune function?

One of many things I've been told by doctors (and vets!) my whole life is that improving the diet and reducing stress is key to improving immune function.

I haven't posted either way because I agree. Better nutrition WOULD improve immune function or at least not impact it negatively!
When I was younger I contracted Mononucleosis and I got over it only by using soy protein powder and vitamins on top of a healthy diet.
The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.
User avatar
msvette2u
I live here
 
Posts: 6812
Location: Eastern WA

Postby SisMorphine » May 23rd, 2006, 5:06 pm

babyreba wrote:OK, I still want to know why eating more nutritious foods won't help improve immune function?

One of many things I've been told by doctors (and vets!) my whole life is that improving the diet and reducing stress is key to improving immune function.

Eating more nutritious foods will help with EVERYTHING! The healthier your diet is, the healthier your body is. It's all interconnected.
"All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another." -Anatole France
SisMorphine
They're like service dogs gone wrong.
 
Posts: 9231

Postby SpiritFngrz » May 23rd, 2006, 5:07 pm

babyreba wrote:
SpiritFngrz wrote:Yes, I agree Demi does look much better. However, I won't agree with you that a raw diet will enhance an immune system.
My Ph.D. will be in Immunology/Pathobiology, in case anyone wants to duke it out :slap:

Again, I'm not saying raw is bad. Am I a tad skeptical? Yes


Will any healthy diet and/or improved nutrition enhance the functioning of an immune system?


Yes I think it is the whole picture. Is someone who has a great nutritional diet and exercises regularly going to be healthier in general and get sick less? Yes. My husband is very healthy about what he eats and is a gym-aholic. He is in great shape. He rarely rarely gets sick. I think taking vitamins helps too.
As in vice versa, someone who eats chips and pizza all the time (in dogs- low quality kibble) will probably be less healthier overall and not be as able to fight infection overall.

What I was saying was about the original post, though. Someone alluded to having an immune-compromised dog, wherein some replied put the dog on a raw diet to "up" his/her immune system. I took this as whatever microorganisms in the meat would stimulate the immune system, which it would not. The nutritional value might be there- but it seems as though it would be too hard a hit for an immune-compromised dog -is what I think others were saying.
Last edited by SpiritFngrz on May 23rd, 2006, 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
SpiritFngrz
I live here
 
Posts: 2711
Location: Central Mass.

Postby babyreba » May 23rd, 2006, 5:08 pm

ETA: I thought the point of feeding the raw diet was because it's got high nutritional value and offers dogs fewer fillers and additives, such as grains and colorings, which is why the raw diet is supposed to be great for improving immunity and such . . . it is full of whole foods, vitamins and minerals, beneficial oils, etc. So's a good kibble. So I didn't understand why it was being said that raw would not help ease the problems associated with demo. It just doesn't add up, unless the point is that good nutrition has nothing to do with immune function. Which goes against everything I've ever heard before . . .

But anyway . . . this has been an enlightening discussion, but the work day is over and I gotta go home.

I think I'm gonna pick up some sushi for dinner--raw and delicious! :D
Last edited by babyreba on May 23rd, 2006, 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
babyreba
Supremely Bully
 
Posts: 1132

Postby msvette2u » May 23rd, 2006, 5:08 pm

LindsaySF wrote:
cheekymunkee wrote:I have not ignored one post on this thread. BUT I will say this, if either of you know as much about dog nutrition as you claim, neither of you would be feeding what you feed. There are MUCH better kibbles out there that do not contain grade 4d meat, and you cannot prove your foods do not. Why do you not feed them better food?

Sometimes it is not all about knowledge, and it is about MONEY. I don't feed a higher quality kibble because I can not afford it.

I said in my post about Kirkland that it is "mid-range". I know that. And they do get meat as treats, and dried chicken jerky treats as well (those things are VERY expensive!).

I have too many animals to be spending $60 on a bag of dog food, sorry. I try to give the best I can afford for all of my pets.

And one of my dogs, Cody, has Diabetes Insipidus as a result (we think) of head trauma. (And before you all jump on me about Diabetes, this is NOT sugar diabetes, that is Diabetes Mellitus). He requires twice daily medication that runs about $100 a month.

Now if any of you more fortunate people would like to send some money my way, I will GLADLY buy a bag of Canidae. :)

~Lindsay~


Ditto - we have managed to rescue and rehome some 30 dogs in the past 4 years or so and we also have five of our own. Maybe we ought to send 3-4 of ours back to the shelter so I can buy Merrick? :| Oh I have to run...I'm going to rescue a shelter dog who is on death row right now, so I can poison her with our Nutro ;) Somehow I don't think she'll care, once she's out of the shelter, that she's getting a midrange dog food though...I'll let ya know.
The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.
User avatar
msvette2u
I live here
 
Posts: 6812
Location: Eastern WA

Postby LindsaySF » May 23rd, 2006, 5:09 pm

babyreba wrote:OK, I still want to know why eating more nutritious foods won't help improve immune function?

Well Doreen is our immunology expert here, but I'll give this one a shot.

I think eating more nutritious foods WILL improve immune function. Those vitamins that are antioxidants, etc, are good for you. I don't think anyone is disputing that.

The debate here is whether or not raw food is actually more nutritious than high quality kibble. And if it is, if you feed raw food contaminated with something (like Salmonella) to a dog that has a weak immune system, you are doing them more harm than good.


~Lindsay~


Edit - I see that Doreen already replied. Ooops. :)
Last edited by LindsaySF on May 23rd, 2006, 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
LindsaySF
Confident Young Bully
 
Posts: 490
Location: Prospect, CT

Postby Magnolia618 » May 23rd, 2006, 5:10 pm

I have too many animals to be spending $60 on a bag of dog food, sorry


Umm... a bag of Canidae is like $30.
I took this as whatever microorganisms in the meat would stimulate the immune system, which it would not.


No, what I meant was better nutrition= healthier happier dog.
“Hatred is the coward's revenge for being intimidated.â€
User avatar
Magnolia618
I live here
 
Posts: 2435
Location: Onion, VT

Postby cheekymunkee » May 23rd, 2006, 5:13 pm

Nope, sorry. I refuse to have more animals than I can afford to feed a healthy diet to. If it means I can only have one dog in order to feed it the best food possible, then I only have one dog.
There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.

Debby
User avatar
cheekymunkee
I Have Your Grass
 
Posts: 28540
Location: Dallas

Postby Magnolia618 » May 23rd, 2006, 5:17 pm

Ditto - we have managed to rescue and rehome some 30 dogs in the past 4 years or so and we also have five of our own. Maybe we ought to send 3-4 of ours back to the shelter so I can buy Merrick? Neutral Oh I have to run...I'm going to rescue a shelter dog who is on death row right now, so I can poison her with our Nutro Wink Somehow I don't think she'll care, once she's out of the shelter, that she's getting a midrange dog food though...I'll let ya know.


Woooow. Talk about a mature post. :rolleyes2:

Btw... feeding raw is actually VERY inexpensive if you do it right.

But how do you know these are problems associated with a kibble diet? You have no evidence for that, you are just assuming it.


From certain kibbles? Yes. I have never said that some dogs dont do great on kibble. I dont have a problem if you feed a high quality kibble. I AM saying that alot of kibbles are unhealthy for dogs. AND I am saying that I believe that these problems are much less likely to occur on raw than on most kibbles (because most kibbles are crap...)




How old was the cat? How much was it being fed? How much exercise was it getting?



It was a DOG. (wow...) "It" was being fed.... 2 cups a day? Maybe 3? He was a 9 yr old GSHP. He got plenty of exercise.

Did she get a skin scraping for mange? Do you know what it was that she had?


Yes. It was demodex mange.



I'm glad she is better, but you have no evidence whatsoever that it was the raw diet that did it. Sorry.


Maybe I dont have actual evidence in her case, but I do in another. A friend of mine has a dog who had a mild case of demodex. The dog was eating MERRICK. She switched the dog to raw, and POOF! No more demodex.


If she was allergic to something in the kibble, then replacing that kibble with another kibble that did not contain the ingredient she was allergic to would also have stopped her problems.


Yes, I'm sure she would have gone very well on a high quality kibble. I never said she wouldnt. I said that I fed raw to a dog with a compromised immune system, and it worked.


Nope, sorry. I refuse to have more animals than I can afford to feed a healthy diet to. If it means I can only have one dog in order to feed it the best food possible, then I only have one dog.


I do agree with that. Am I saying that all shelter dogs should eat merrick? Of course not. It wouldnt be possible. (Raw actually would if enough people were educated about it, but thats another story...)
“Hatred is the coward's revenge for being intimidated.â€
User avatar
Magnolia618
I live here
 
Posts: 2435
Location: Onion, VT

Postby cheekymunkee » May 23rd, 2006, 5:18 pm

I'm going to rescue a shelter dog who is on death row right now, so I can poison her with our Nutro


And you make snotty little comments like that and your "whining" comment ( this thread is rampant with them) and expect people not to get snotty back with you? Sorry, it doesn't work that way.
There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.

Debby
User avatar
cheekymunkee
I Have Your Grass
 
Posts: 28540
Location: Dallas

Postby LindsaySF » May 23rd, 2006, 5:21 pm

Magnolia618 wrote:Umm... a bag of Canidae is like $30.

We go through nearly two 40 pound bags of dog food a month. A 33-lb bag of Canidae is $26, so times two is $52. Then add $12 shipping for these 2 bags (because nowhere around me, that I know of, carries Canidae), and voila $64.

Sorry if I referred to one bag when I meant two, but either way I can not afford this.



~Lindsay~
LindsaySF
Confident Young Bully
 
Posts: 490
Location: Prospect, CT

PreviousNext

Return to Nutrition & Health

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users