Raw vs. Kibble debate

Food, Fitness and how to keep them healthy.

Postby LindsaySF » May 23rd, 2006, 4:16 pm

SisMorphine wrote:Just in case anyone forgot about this recent little issue:

I was counting down the seconds for that to be mentioned. :)

Kirkland Signature was not part of that recall.


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Postby cheekymunkee » May 23rd, 2006, 4:17 pm

msvette2u wrote:Our cats get Purina One and the dogs are on Nutro Natural or Kirkland Signature. Both the dog foods have a meat "meal" as first ingredients although probably considered mid-range food as well. I would recommend Canidae, or Walmart Maxximum brands, we have fed those in the past. I rarely recommend Purina products other than ONE. There's bunches of kibble brands I recommend NOT feeding, more than the ones I recommend feeding, specifically Ol' Roy (I've been known to stop people in the store from buying that!) and Science Diet. For the price difference, you can get a better quality kibble.
We've never had health problems with our dogs, the oldest is now 6? 7? and the youngest is less than a year. Other than Copper, whose current problem is one of breeding, that is, a disc problem associated with long-backed dogs. We've had him less than 2 years despite the fact he is now 8 years old.


LAST post I swear!!!

I have been discussing the benefits of a raw diet with you & you feed THAT shit? I knew I was wasting my time. Perhaps you would like to know what MEAL really is, now tell me, HOW is that better than pure 100% meat?

Meat and poultry meals, by-product meals, and meat-and-bone meal are common ingredients in pet foods. The term "meal" means that these materials are not used fresh, but have been rendered. What is rendering? Rendering, as defined by Webster's Dictionary, is "to process as for industrial use: to render livestock carcasses and to extract oil from fat, blubber, etc., by melting." Home-made chicken soup, with its thick layer of fat that forms over the top when the soup is cooled, is a sort of mini-rendering process. Rendering separates fat-soluble from water-soluble and solid materials, removes most of the water, and kills bacterial contaminants, but may alter or destroy some of the natural enzymes and proteins found in the raw ingredients. Meat and poultry by-products, while not rendered, vary widely in composition and quality.
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Postby msvette2u » May 23rd, 2006, 4:18 pm

and he got fat and suddenly got sick and died.


That's an owner problem, not a pet food specific problem. None of my dogs are fat, and they eat Purina "something". (eta HAVE eaten, they are now on Nutro) Obesity does increase the risk of diabetes in and of itself. Overfeeding ANY food combined with lack of exercise is going to cause obesity.
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Postby msvette2u » May 23rd, 2006, 4:20 pm

Perhaps you would like to know what MEAL really is,


Actually the "meal" is the most recommended ingredient I've seen on this board since "chicken" is mostly water and cooks down. I should add, that is a direct quote from one of the mods of this board. I didn't understand this myself until I read it the way she put it (that's Michelle)

The ingredients in this food, are (for chicken/rice) chicken meal - chicken - rice.
For other types, lamb for instance, it is lamb meal - lamb - rice.
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Postby msvette2u » May 23rd, 2006, 4:27 pm

Ingredients
Lamb Meal, Ground Rice, Rice Flour, Rice Bran, Sunflower Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of natural Vitamin E), Poultry Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of natural Vitamin E), Natural Flavors, Rice Gluten, Dried Egg Product, Dried Beet Pulp, Potassium Chloride, L-Lysine, Dried Kelp (source of Iodine), Salt, Choline Chloride, Zinc Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Taurine, Ferrous Sulfate, Ascorbic Acid (source of Vitamin C), Biotin, Copper Proteinate, Niacin, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement (source of Vitamin B2), Vitamin A Supplement, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Chondroitin Sulfate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of Vitamin B6), Thiamine Mononitrate (source of Vitamin B1), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of Vitamin K activity), Calcium Iodate, Folic Acid.

*********************Our formulas are made from real chicken meal and lamb meal for guaranteed great taste. Chicken meal is made from the best parts of the chicken and does not include chicken by-products (no chicken heads, feet, or intestines). These less expensive protein sources can be difficult to digest.
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Postby Magnolia618 » May 23rd, 2006, 4:32 pm

So now we are saying that Purina is GOOD FOOD?!

:shock:

i think the general consensus has been that people should feed what they are comfortable feeding and the raw feeders have had to explain and re-explain why they are feeding what they are comfortable feeding and asked over and over again to explain it and asked why they won't cook their dogs' food.

they explain it.

it gets asked again.

i think it's pretty clear that they feel the health benefits are worth the perceived risk. and you feel the same about your choice to feed kibble with a multivitamin pill.


excellent post!

This is always the argument given to discredit vets. And in some cases it is true, but not always.


ONCE AGAIN (I am getting veeery tired of repeating myself) NOBODY said that all vets dont know anything about nutrition.

A shiny coat is not necessarily an indication of a healthy overall dog.


Thats what I've been saying.
I bet if many of the raw diet feeders suddenly switched to cooked meat, they would see little to no difference.

If I didnt care so much about my pets well-being, I would experiment with that because I TOTALLY disagree.
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Postby cheekymunkee » May 23rd, 2006, 4:32 pm

Sounds like nothing but fillers, preservatives & crap to me but hey, if you are happy with it who I am to say anything. :|
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Postby Magnolia618 » May 23rd, 2006, 4:32 pm

Our formulas are made from real chicken meal and lamb meal for guaranteed great taste. Chicken meal is made from the best parts of the chicken and does not include chicken by-products (no chicken heads, feet, or intestines)


Yes, it may be real chicken. REAL diseased chicken. :|
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Postby Magnolia618 » May 23rd, 2006, 4:34 pm

cheekymunkee wrote:Sounds like nothing but fillers, preservatives & crap to me but hey, if you are happy with it who I am to say anything. :|


yup.
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Postby babyreba » May 23rd, 2006, 4:36 pm

LindsaySF wrote:[Where I disagree is this: None of the problems you mentioned are a result of cooking our food.

~Lindsay~



No, but they are a direct result of eating processed foods instead of fresh, natural ones.

There's a reason dieticians and nutritionists will advise that you add uncooked leafy greens, raw fruits and veggies, and other minimally processed foods to your diet--because they are good for you. Vitamin C loss in a vegetable occurs with temperature, time, exposure to air, etc. You want the healthiest vegetable, you will pick it at its peak and eat it fresh. Once you put it in your fridge it starts to lose some nutrition. Put it in a pot of boiling water, it'll lose some more. When you puree it, simmer it for hours, strain it, then bake it into a frozen pizza . . . well, there's not a whole lot left to it.

Doctors won't tell you that eating Wonder Bread will kill you--it won't. But they will tell you that you will be healthier in the long run if you eat healthier foods and fewer processed foods. Including raw or minimally cooked vegetables (steamed, say, rather than over boiled). There is almost no argument on that point.

Which is the essence of this debate, really. People are applying this principle to the feeding of their dogs.
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Postby LindsaySF » May 23rd, 2006, 4:38 pm

Magnolia618 wrote:This is Demi. (I have mentioned her SEVERAL times in this thread)
When she came into the shelter she was covered in sores, had no hair on her back end, behind her ears, and her paws. She was a MESS. You can't even tell in these pictures how bad it was.

I'm glad Demi is better! She's pretty. :)

Did she get a skin scraping for mange? Do you know what it was that she had?

I'm glad she is better, but you have no evidence whatsoever that it was the raw diet that did it. Sorry.

If she had mange of the Demodex species, that often occurs as a result of stress, immune system problems, etc. Stress can occur for any number of reasons, but a common one is the stressful shelter environment. So just removing her from that environment would help.

If she was allergic to something in the kibble, then replacing that kibble with another kibble that did not contain the ingredient she was allergic to would also have stopped her problems.



I'm not saying that they were life threatening problems, I'm talking everything from gooky eyes, to demodex, to bad coats. You see alot working in shelters.

But how do you know these are problems associated with a kibble diet? You have no evidence for that, you are just assuming it.



Honestly? I dont know much about the disease, but I would bet alot that if the dog was on a better quality kibble or raw, that he would have been MUCH healthier. They fed him crap food (purina something, maybe?) and he got fat and suddenly got sick and died.

How old was the cat? How much was it being fed? How much exercise was it getting?



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Postby LindsaySF » May 23rd, 2006, 4:43 pm

msvette2u wrote:Actually the "meal" is the most recommended ingredient I've seen on this board since "chicken" is mostly water and cooks down. I should add, that is a direct quote from one of the mods of this board. I didn't understand this myself until I read it the way she put it (that's Michelle).

I have heard this as well. Actual chicken listed on the ingredients label is chicken before it is cooked, but once it is cooked it dramatically reduces in size. So I think the point was that if chicken was the first thing on the label, it might not actually be the most prevalent substance as far as dry weight goes.


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Postby SpiritFngrz » May 23rd, 2006, 4:44 pm

Yes, I agree Demi does look much better. However, I won't agree with you that a raw diet will enhance an immune system.
My Ph.D. will be in Immunology/Pathobiology, in case anyone wants to duke it out :slap:

Again, I'm not saying raw is bad. Am I a tad skeptical? Yes
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Postby LindsaySF » May 23rd, 2006, 4:46 pm

cheekymunkee wrote:I have been discussing the benefits of a raw diet with you & you feed THAT poop? I knew I was wasting my time.

Regardless of what he/she feeds, he/she has posted a number of good links and information valid to this debate.

You talk about ignoring posts, but I think some of Msvette2u's posts are the most ignored of all....


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Postby LindsaySF » May 23rd, 2006, 4:47 pm

SpiritFngrz wrote:Yes, I agree Demi does look much better. However, I won't agree with you that a raw diet will enhance an immune system.
My Ph.D. will be in Immunology/Pathobiology, in case anyone wants to duke it out :slap:

Again, I'm not saying raw is bad. Am I a tad skeptical? Yes

LOL! I like that smiley too. :)

Mine will be in Microbiology/Parasitology, so I am skeptical as well.


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Postby babyreba » May 23rd, 2006, 4:49 pm

SpiritFngrz wrote:Yes, I agree Demi does look much better. However, I won't agree with you that a raw diet will enhance an immune system.
My Ph.D. will be in Immunology/Pathobiology, in case anyone wants to duke it out :slap:

Again, I'm not saying raw is bad. Am I a tad skeptical? Yes


Will any healthy diet and/or improved nutrition enhance the functioning of an immune system?
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Postby msvette2u » May 23rd, 2006, 4:49 pm

cheekymunkee wrote:Sounds like nothing but fillers, preservatives & crap to me but hey, if you are happy with it who I am to say anything. :|

For someone who whined for pages about "feeling attacked", you're doing pretty good at attacking!
Amazingly, you guys tout the benefits of raw by saying your dog's coat is shiny. If I say our dogs' coats are shiny you scoff and say they would be shinier if on raw.
What gives?? You can say "the proof is in the pudding" about your dog's appearance yet if I do, because I feed kibble, I'm full of it? Double standard...HMMM???
Look at this dog and tell me he's unhealthy because of what I'm feeding him.
Image
You can't do it. I rest my case. (BTW this dog is 4 yet you'd never know it to look at his teeth-should I post another teeth shot?? :D )
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Postby cheekymunkee » May 23rd, 2006, 4:51 pm

LindsaySF wrote:
cheekymunkee wrote:I have been discussing the benefits of a raw diet with you & you feed THAT poop? I knew I was wasting my time.

Regardless of what he/she feeds, he/she has posted a number of good links and information valid to this debate.

You talk about ignoring posts, but I think some of Msvette2u's posts are the most ignored of all....


~Lindsay~


I have not ignored one post on this thread. BUT I will say this, if either of you know as much about dog nutrition as you claim, neither of you would be feeding what you feed. There are MUCH better kibbles out there that do not contain grade 4d meat, and you cannot prove your foods do not. Why do you not feed them better food?
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Postby msvette2u » May 23rd, 2006, 4:53 pm

LindsaySF wrote:
cheekymunkee wrote:I have been discussing the benefits of a raw diet with you & you feed THAT poop? I knew I was wasting my time.

Regardless of what he/she feeds, he/she has posted a number of good links and information valid to this debate.

You talk about ignoring posts, but I think some of Msvette2u's posts are the most ignored of all....


~Lindsay~


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Postby cheekymunkee » May 23rd, 2006, 4:54 pm

msvette2u wrote:
cheekymunkee wrote:Sounds like nothing but fillers, preservatives & crap to me but hey, if you are happy with it who I am to say anything. :|

For someone who whined for pages about "feeling attacked", you're doing pretty good at attacking!
Amazingly, you guys tout the benefits of raw by saying your dog's coat is shiny. If I say our dogs' coats are shiny you scoff and say they would be shinier if on raw.
What gives?? You can say "the proof is in the pudding" about your dog's appearance yet if I do, because I feed kibble, I'm full of it? Double standard...HMMM???
Look at this dog and tell me he's unhealthy because of what I'm feeding him.
Image
You can't do it. I rest my case. (BTW this dog is 4 yet you'd never know it to look at his teeth-should I post another teeth shot?? :D )


I have not attacked you, no more than you have attacked our feedign practices. And do you REALLY want to talk about whining Vette? I don't think you do.
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