Raw vs. Kibble debate

[LindsaySF]

One of my cats is 17 and going strong. She eats canned and dry commercial cat food (Whiskas, Friskies, and Purina all mixed).


~Lindsay~

[LindsaySF]

Many, but not all, Greyhounds are fed raw while racing (over half of them I'd say . . . which is apparently down from what it used to be). So to have only a handful contract these things suggests to me that of this handful their immune systems were down.

I'm glad the ex-racing Greyhound you have now is doing well.

I don't know the specifics of this study at all (how many dogs were sick, how severely sick they were, what their kennel conditions were like, etc). I only saw it briefly mentioned.

I'm with msvette2u in that I'd like to see some more accurate statistics and long-term studies before I feed raw.

But even if a handful of dogs get sick, that is too much for me. I don't want to take the chance with my dog.


~Lindsay~

[cheekymunkee]

Many, but not all, Greyhounds are fed raw while racing (over half of them I'd say . . . which is apparently down from what it used to be). So to have only a handful contract these things suggests to me that of this handful their immune systems were down.

I'm glad the ex-racing Greyhound you have now is doing well.

I don't know the specifics of this study at all (how many dogs were sick, how severely sick they were, what their kennel conditions were like, etc). I only saw it briefly mentioned.

I'm with msvette2u in that I'd like to see some more accurate statistics and long-term studies before I feed raw.

But even if a handful of dogs get sick, that is too much for me. I don't want to take the chance with my dog.


~Lindsay~

That is THE reason I switched from commercial food to raw. WAY too many sick & dying dogs due to bad food. At least with raw, I know exactly what is in their food, there is NO hoping the manufatcurerer is not fudging the ingredient list. They eat what I eat. Not only that, the proof is in the poop. Less crap IN, less crap OUT. My dogs bodies use I'd guess 99% of the food they eat instead of leaving it all over the yard for me to clean up. My vet knows my dogs eat raw & is very happy with their health. He is very impressed with Munkee's allergies, their clean teeth, their healthy coats & their clean breath.

[dogcrazyjen]

I think it is really up to the owners.

People died of meat that was not stored properly, not from fresh raw meat. My FIL eats fresh raw beef on a weekly basis (he loves ground beef) and has never had issues, not conclusive but makes a point nonetheless. People eat undercooked steak and rarely (sorry about the pun) have issues, unless the meat was stored improperly. Chicken IS tough on the human digestive system, and that is why cross contaminiation is a problem. But dogs are not people. Healthy dogs are able to eat things that would kill us.

I agree that modern meat practices make our supplies questionable. A quick blanching of meat pieces would take care of many of the problems.

I have noticed my dogs needing some roughage, so I give a mix of veggies, legumes and organ meat alternately with whole meat pieces to not only ensure roughage but also nutrients. I do not require a bag of food to properly feed my family, and I do not need a bag to properly feed my dogs.

I personally think our society is prone to mass panic and dramitization when it comes to any dangers percieved to our health. The number of people truly harmed by meat is relatively small, when compared to the top leading causes of death. Again, healthy people do not drop dead from fresh meat. Few pets have suffered severe problems because of a raw diet. If there was a real threat, dog people would be up in arms about it.

Hell, I know someone whose dog was accidently killed when retrieving a stick (it hit the ground upright a split second before the dog reached for it, and jammed in the dog's throat.) Within weeks there were flyers at dog camps, many messages on lists, all warning of the mass dangers of sticks. All for one case. My dog cut his toe off in a recliner, and within weeks I heard my own story along with cautions against recliners. Two or three dogs get sick, who happened to eat the same food, and a nationwide panic is started about the dog food, before any tests are run.

Dog people are freakier than normal people about health issues. I do not believe that if raw actually were a real danger we would not be hearing about it ad nausium. I realize this is not scientific, but it is a pretty strong social trend.

Dogs in the wild do not have controlled diets, or safe environments, or veterinary care, or refridgeration of food. It is not very accurate to compare life expectancy rates when you are only controlling for one variable-diet. You should know that, having gone through a science major.

If infestation of pork is this rare

During 1997-2001, an average of 12 cases per year were reported.

then you have a greater chance of being drown in a bucket or struck by lightning than contracting this.

http://www.nssl.noaa.gov/papers/techmem ... 193-4.html

I refuse to be cowed by such low odds of something happening. Your dog probably has just as likely chance of getting a bad batch of dog food. If people wish to feed kibble, then by all means do so. Raw has its drawbacks, mainly it takes much more thought, planning, and time than kibble. I certainly will not judge those who feed kibble, I did it for years. but please do not overstate the dangers of raw in an attempt to discredit the practice.

[LindsaySF]

They eat what I eat.

I have no problem with feeding dogs human-grade meats. I think cooked meat is an excellent idea actually. But I don't think raw meat is a good idea. Unless you eat your meat raw as well? Just messing with ya.

The argument against cooking the meat for the dogs is that essential nutrients are lost. But what about humans? We cook our meat and we are fine...

I agree about commercial kibble, some brands anyways. We definitely need more regulation on them. I feed my dogs a high quality kibble, and they are healthy. Is there any evidence that high quality kibble has made dogs sick, or is it just the low quality stuff you are talking about?



~Lindsay~

[cheekymunkee]

If infestation of pork is this rare

Quote:
During 1997-2001, an average of 12 cases per year were reported.


then you have a greater chance of being drown in a bucket or struck by lightning than contracting this.

http://www.nssl.noaa.gov/papers/techmem ... 193-4.html

I've fed pork for over a year now with no problems. And that report is the reason I am not afraid to do so.

I have seen reports of some of the higher quality foods having problems as well. Let me see if I can dig them up, I'm at work so it may take a while.

[cheekymunkee]

This is posted on another board

Valid Recall: on certain Wingaling cans (dog). Some might contain
metal tabs under the chicken wings. Here are the codes of the
affected lots:

3M5WAL L 05347
3M5WAL H 05353
" " A 05362
" " G 06003
" " H 06003
" " H 06004
" " E 06012
" " F 06012
" " G 06017
" " H 06017
" " K 06024
" " L 06025

OK, so I called Merrick. Left a mesage and they called me back within 15 minutes!
They used a new chicken supplier on the beginning of 2006. This supplier did random inspections of the chicken, and when they did the inspection, installed a wing clip on the wing. It's about the size of a nickel, you won't miss it.
There is nothing wrong with the food, if you want to keep and use your food, just dump it out into a bowl and check the wings for the clip. This pertains to the 13.2 oz can only.
If you do not want to use the product, return it to your supplier for replacement or refund. You might want to wait a day or two, however, as the stores will get the packet contining the info by tomorrow, 5/02/06.

[cheekymunkee]

Premium Edge is Diamond's high end line. I fed it shortly before switching to raw

PERMISSION TO CROSSPOST FAR AND WIDE
Subject: DIAMOND
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 10:23:45 EST

You may think the Diamond food scare is over, or that only a limited amount
of product is involved. Not so.

On Monday, March 6 - after 3 feedings of Diamond's Premium Edge Chicken,
Rice and Vegetables - we almost lost 3 of our 4 GSDs. The only reason it
did! n't effect the 16 week old is because we kept her on other feed. Within
20 minutes of ingesting their dinner, 2 of the dogs proceeded to vomit dark
green undigested food and within another 2 minutes they were foaming at the
mouth and stiff-leg gaiting. Another 5 minutes and they were having what I -
as a nurse - would refer to as petit mal seizures. After a traumatic night
at the local emergency clinic, the diagnosis was "food intoxication from
Premium Edge kibble".

The following day, upon contacting Diamond in Meta, Missouri, I was assured
they would work with me in this and stand behind their product....the
reimbursement for any and all vet care, etc was also discussed. Upon asking
for financial assistance for a test Diamond requested at Cornell
($300.00/dog minimum) - a test that per my vet and those at Cornell said was
a CYA call on Diamond's part - they changed their mind on "helping out". I
refused that particular test, awaiting results from another analysis on
samples.

Notification came yesterday from University of Missouri Vet Met Diagnostic
Lab: "Each of the four submitted samples of dog food contained approximately
0.5 ppm of vomitoxin, as detected by thin layer chromotography...".

Judging from no reference to this on Premium Edge's website (incredible how
many products Diamond makes but very difficult to trace back to them - each
feed/product seems to have it's own website/contact), no contact as of yet
from Diamond and certainly no "standing behind" their product it appears
they are not overly concerned about their consumers.

Research your food thoroughly. If it is even remotely related to Diamond -
DO NOT FEED!! If you are so inclined, please write concerns to Diamond - you
can reference me if so desired. My particular contact was Dr. Brookshire,
Director of Veterinary Services.

Christine Buff
Sr. K9 Handler/Trainer, Highland SAR
Member, Rescue International
K9 Director, New York State Federation of SAR

[msvette2u]

The interesting thing here, is that kibble feeders have one experience and raw feeders have another. My dogs are all healthy the only one who's at the vet is Copper whom we've only had not quite 2 years but he's 8, and has been predisposed by his very breed to some health issues (specifically back problems).
My experience is that my dogs are looking great on kibble. Therefore I recommend kibble to everyone I adopt out dogs to.
Of course there's better quality kibble than other kibble and as time passes more awareness is coming about what should and shouldn't be in kibble.
I think it has been touched on but it is my belief that genetics play a larger role than diet in the health or nonhealth of a dog or cat or any other species.

[dogcrazyjen]

I think it has been touched on but it is my belief that genetics play a larger role than diet in the health or nonhealth of a dog or cat or any other species.

I agree. I think that in some cases (like mine with Tallulah,) genetics made it hard to feed kibble. She needed a less processed food source. Some do awesome on cheap kibble, I have seen vegan dogs in perfect health. I have seen great dogs on 90 buck a bag food and raw.

I think that dogs are very adaptable in most cases, so as long as the dog is healthy, it is a personal choice what to feed them.

[SisMorphine]

But even if a handful of dogs get sick, that is too much for me. I don't want to take the chance with my dog.


~Lindsay~

But a handful of dogs get sick every year on dry food from salmonella, e. coli, etc.

[cheekymunkee]

I think it has been touched on but it is my belief that genetics play a larger role than diet in the health or nonhealth of a dog or cat or any other species.

I agree. I think that in some cases (like mine with Tallulah,) genetics made it hard to feed kibble. She needed a less processed food source. Some do awesome on cheap kibble, I have seen vegan dogs in perfect health. I have seen great dogs on 90 buck a bag food and raw.

I think that dogs are very adaptable in most cases, so as long as the dog is healthy, it is a personal choice what to feed them.

I agree with this 100%. My dads dogs ate Purina Dog Chow and lived long happy healthy lives. Of course, back then Purina WAS top of the line. Some had allergies but none had any major health problems.

[LindsaySF]

People died of meat that was not stored properly, not from fresh raw meat.

Well, this is only true for deaths from bacterial diseases. Meat that is infected with parasites will continue to be infected with parasites, regardless of the way it is handled or stored. The only way to kill these parasites is temperature (freezing or cooking).

People eat undercooked steak and rarely (sorry about the pun) have issues, unless the meat was stored improperly.

Still talking about bacteria here, but yes steak is safer to eat rare because of the nature of steak. It is the flesh right off the animal and it is tough, so even if the meat is stored or handled improperly the 'bad' bacteria really can't penetrate to the center. This is why it is ok for steak to still be pink in the middle, all the bad bacteria are on the outside really, and were killed by the cooking process.

Ground beef is another matter, and this is why so many E. coli and Salmonella cases are reported from undercooked hamburgers. Improper handling causes bacteria to thrive on the surface of the meat, but the grinding process mixes it all up and the bacteria get into the center of the burger patties. You need to cook it thoroughly, with no pink in the middle, in order to kill ALL of the bacteria. If the center is still very pink, some of the bacteria living there may have survived cooking.

I do not require a bag of food to properly feed my family, and I do not need a bag to properly feed my dogs.

I agree. I'm sure the pet food companies don't want you to know this though!

Hell, I know someone whose dog was accidently killed when retrieving a stick (it hit the ground upright a split second before the dog reached for it, and jammed in the dog's throat.)

That is such a sad story... What are the odds of that happening?

Dog people are freakier than normal people about health issues. I do not believe that if raw actually were a real danger we would not be hearing about it ad nausium. I realize this is not scientific, but it is a pretty strong social trend.

Well, raw diets are only recently catching on with the general public. It used to be that just racing dogs and hunting dogs were the ones mostly on raw diets. I'm sure we will hear more about the benefits and drawbacks to raw diets as it becomes more popular.

Dogs in the wild do not have controlled diets, or safe environments, or veterinary care, or refridgeration of food. It is not very accurate to compare life expectancy rates when you are only controlling for one variable-diet. You should know that, having gone through a science major.

I agree. The life expectancy of dogs in the wild is not solely determined by diet. But my point was that many people say that dogs in the wild eat anything and they are perfectly fine, and they use this argument to justify feeding the raw diet to their dogs. What some people don't realize is that wild dogs can and do get sick (and sometimes die) from 'food poisoning'...

If infestation of pork is this rare then you have a greater chance of being drown in a bucket or struck by lightning than contracting this.

Very true, it is rare. And I said that "infection in the U.S. is rare". But it is still a VERY serious disease. Having the worms itself is not very serious, but if you injest the eggs of the worm, the larvae hatch and can travel to any part of the body and form a cyst (eye, skeletal muscle, brain). The problem with this disease is that treatment to remove the cysts is nearly impossible. Also, due to its rarity, it is seldom recognized by doctors (treatment often delayed until it is too late, and it is under-reported).

I certainly will not judge those who feed kibble, I did it for years. but please do not overstate the dangers of raw in an attempt to discredit the practice.

Not trying to overstate anything. I even admitted that it may only be a handful of cases that have problems. But I often hear the argument "dogs do it in the wild so it is ok for my dog", from people who know next to nothing about bacterial or parasitic infections, and that concerns me.



~Lindsay~

[msvette2u]

But I often hear the argument "dogs do it in the wild so it is ok for my dog", from people who know next to nothing about bacterial or parasitic infections, and that concerns me.

That's my thing too quite honestly. There's so many variables out there and scientists admit that "in the wild" lifespans are so much shorter than our domesticated animals that they can't accurately say that the type diet they are eating out there IS better.

BTW I had to throw this in. An example of my sense of humor. I printed this one year and gave it to my grandmother, I think for her 80th birthday...

[hoagiesmomma]

personally, even if I had irrefutable evidence that raw feeding was indeed the end all cure all for my dogs' ailments...

I still couldn't do it. I'm an on again off again vegetarian (my husband keeps slipping me chicken) and have trouble handling frozen hotdogs for the kids...let alone having to defrost and handle a raw diet *feels a little sick just thinking about it*

I'd be more comfortable with a vegetarian diet for my dogs (not vegan, persay...I'm ok with dairy and eggs if the animals are treated humanely and allowed free range roam), but haven't come to a conclusion as to whether or not it would actually be GOOD for them. so I suck it up and feed them duck in a bag. poor duckies .

I would also worry about bacteria in my home, yard, etc with a raw diet...my kids aren't exactly toddlers...

but one look at their rooms would tell you they aren't exactly hygiene obsessed, either. *is there a barf smilie?*

[LindsaySF]

But a handful of dogs get sick every year on dry food from salmonella, e. coli, etc.

True. But not as often as with raw meat.

Dry dog food does not really provide a suitable environment on which bacteria can thrive. Raw meat does. That's not to say that it is impossible to have dry dog food contaminated with bacteria. It absolutely is possible, but probably just less likely than with raw.

But again, the problem is that we don't have accurate statistics. The CDC is concerned with human outbreaks, not animal ones. We need an organization to follow both dry and raw dog food and determine the percentage of infected samples.

Here are some scientific studies that I found about the Greyhounds I mentioned before:

In this study, Salmonella enterica was found in 66% of raw food samples and 93% of fecal samples at a Greyhound race track. In this one, they showed that the strains of Salmonella obtained from the feces were the same ones found in the food. In this one, 45% of the raw meat samples (using culture method) and 66% (using DNA probe method) had Salmonella.


And I've been looking for cases of Salmonella or E. coli in dry dog food, and I found this by the FDA. Only 2 out of 207 dry dog food samples tested positive for Salmonella.


The prevalence of vomitoxin or some of the other mold-based toxins in dog food does concern me though. But I don't know enough about it just yet to form an opinion. (Thanks for the posts Cheekymunkee, I am reading them).



~Lindsay~

[hoagiesmomma]

lindsay...

needs more links.

[LindsaySF]

but one look at their rooms would tell you they aren't exactly hygiene obsessed, either. *is there a barf smilie?*

LOL about the kids' rooms!

Yes there is a barf smiley. The code is puke, with colons on both sides.


~Lindsay~

[LindsaySF]

lindsay...

needs more links.

I know! I'm slipping I tell ya...

[SpiritFngrz]

oh, and for the raw food debate, I don't feed raw. Our vets don't recommend it at all.
Satin does very well on Wellness Simple Solutions (venison) but as is the common denominator with this discussion, every dog is different.
Sometimes she'll give herself the occasional treat like yesterday it was the foot from her stuffed squirrel toy.