Savagem needs Help with Mother and pups

Food, Fitness and how to keep them healthy.

Postby dogcrazyjen » May 18th, 2006, 11:40 am

Seriously, sheesh.... Don't take any raw diet advice from a raw diet distributor.

And I'm not understanding this huge push for the raw diet... Should dogs be on better quality food than Alpo and Ol'Roy? Absolutely. I just don't see why it has to be raw...


I guess my thinking is that any kibble is processed. Any process which makes meat not need to be refridgerated is going to change the value of that food a lot.

I do not eat processed food myself often. I make everything from scratch, from whole ingredients. I feed my dogs the same.

To me, bad kibble is like eating Lucky Charms, and top quality kibble is like eating MREs from the military. Raw is like getting a home cooked meal.

People live on processed food, and dogs live on kibble, and many do just fine. Some of us just choose to go to home cooked for us and our dogs.

I would never push or expect anyone here to go to raw because I said so.

I DO know that it completely stopped my Bull Terriers allergies, she no longer has ear infections, skin problems, bloating and no longer licks her paws until they are stained red. In fact they are bright white for the first time in years. She looks AWESOME.
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Postby msvette2u » May 18th, 2006, 12:01 pm

savagem wrote:Wow--SO much advise here! Thank you all. Just to clarify one important detail--puppies have been wormed once with Nemex, and are now on a worming schedule of every two weeks. And Susie is going to the vet tomorrow for vaccination boosters. We are not going with raw. :P Lindsay reminded me of something--when Susie first came she had fairly normal stools. It wasn't until the vet told me I should switch her from Canidae all-stage kibble to puppy food that she developed the diarrhea. The Eukanuba sounds wonderful, and I will try it next. But I think for now I'm going to switch her back over to Canidae and in the meantime work on weaning the pups completely. One question I still have--is using the bleach/water solution helping to kill any eggs/larvae/worms that might still be in her stool?


The bleach can't hurt. Canidae would be better than Euk. in my opinion.
We have been feeding the mom dog here and the puppies BOTH on "Sensible Choice" (donated) puppy food by Royal Canin. I also gave mom a can of pedigree AM and PM so wasn't worried about her stools being a bit softer. But they were at no time watery.
You may want to give her yogurt in her food. That'll help settle her tummy. Whichever food you choose :)
The puppies just switched to Kirkland signature puppy and are doing great, Mom's now on a regular adult kibble, I think it's kirkland too and all are doing fine.
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Postby savagem » May 18th, 2006, 2:09 pm

Gave Susie Canidae instead of Wellness puppy last night and her stools are ALREADY improved. I think you all were right about the Wellness. Fingers crossed that this poor girl will continue to improve and gain some weight.
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Postby Asta » May 18th, 2006, 2:38 pm

Hey great news! Hope your sweet mamadog is on the track now :)

Cheers,

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Postby Maryellen » May 18th, 2006, 2:39 pm

awesome news!!! wellness for some reason doesnt agree with alot of dogs in the poop dept...
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Postby a-bull » May 18th, 2006, 2:41 pm

I had trouble with Wellness causing more allergic problems rather than less.

:|

Good news. Dogs can really feel crummy when they've had diarrhea for a while . . .
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Postby LindsaySF » May 18th, 2006, 4:32 pm

savagem wrote:Gave Susie Canidae instead of Wellness puppy last night and her stools are ALREADY improved. I think you all were right about the Wellness. Fingers crossed that this poor girl will continue to improve and gain some weight.

Awesome!! :D I'm so happy for Susie! :bananaDance:


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Postby cheekymunkee » May 18th, 2006, 4:34 pm

Great news!! I so hope that was her only problem!!
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Postby Magnolia618 » May 18th, 2006, 4:48 pm

I wouldn't do that to her right now. Her immune system is too far down to tolerate that.


Ummm... what better way to get her immune system UP then to feed raw?

I had a foster who had HORRIBLE demodex. She was covered in sores and had no hair. She was an absolute mess with no immune system. I switched her to raw immediately.

A few weeks later, the sores were completely gone and most of her hair had grown back. Raw worked wonders on her.

Raw is the most natural thing a dog can eat and I think this dog could do great on it.
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Postby turtle » May 18th, 2006, 9:15 pm

I'm coming into this a bit late due to having a busy few days. Looks like some excellent advise and suggestions.

I'd agree that Wellness seems to give many dogs soft stool. It did not agree with my dog and she has eaten lots of other kibbles with no issues. But Wellness, yuck, she farted a lot and had the runs.

Canidae is good kibble and I'd put her back on it and see how she does and give her several small meals during the day.

If you are thinking of raw feeding, I'd start slow with this dog since she is not at all used to eating it. You need to make sure she will chew it and not gulp it down. Maybe start by supplementing her kibble with some raw, just remember to feed raw and kibble in separate meals since they digest at different rates. You want about 6 to 8 hours between the raw and the kibble. I feed half raw half kibble and it works great for my dog.

Hopefully the worms are gone but hookworms can be quite tough to get rid of so you might want to get her a fecal check every 10 days or so for awhile to be sure they are gone.

A question here, bleach is the standard for killing nasties but is there anything else that works as well if not better and is less toxic? How about Trifectant? I've heard great things about it, would it work better than bleach for disinfecting the yard?

Yes the pups can be weaned off mama since they are eating solid food. It would help mama a lot if she does not have them nursing and draining her.


And a thought... you are taking her in for vaccinations? Hummm, if she has a depressed immune system, please consider waiting until she is doing better.

Vaccinating a weakened dog can cause many many problems. Did the shelter vaccinate her when they had her? Has she had previous vaccinations? If she was vaccinated at the shelter (and shelters often do this) and she is vaccinated again, she could have a reaction to the vaccine that could kill her beacuse of being given vaccines too close together.

It's an awful risk... and many vets push vaccinations so please think about not giving them to her right away. There are some other threads here discussing vaccines and about the serious reactions they can cause, plus the fact that they are not needed every year...
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Postby LindsaySF » May 19th, 2006, 1:18 pm

By the way, Melanie, I'm sorry I hijacked your thread and made it The Raw Food Debate. I'm a thread hijacker.... :twisted:

How is Susie today?


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Postby SpiritFngrz » May 19th, 2006, 1:28 pm

Yah I came on here late....
about the puppies.....

Ok so when I had a litter I fed the mom Wellness puppy. Her stools were loose, but not watery diarrhea I would say, but then again, puppy food of any kind is going to make stools loose because there is so much protein.
When I had to take care of the pups I was feeding them water puppy food + Esbilac, which is something I don't think anyone mentioned here yet.
I think the Esbilac is an important thing to use while weaning. You can get it at Petsmart.
How old are the pups Mel?
That would give me a better idea of what they should be getting now
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Postby SpiritFngrz » May 19th, 2006, 5:14 pm

I will have to ask my husband again because at that time we had Annabelle and we were feeding her raw. Venison, bison, duck, turkey, whatever. I will ask him what they said.
I also have a friend who is a 3rd year vet student there I will ask her.
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Postby cheekymunkee » May 19th, 2006, 5:23 pm

I split the thread so we can keep this one on topic & info does not get lost!
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Postby SpiritFngrz » May 19th, 2006, 8:38 pm

cool- for the weaning pups-
definitely a milk replacer
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Postby savagem » May 19th, 2006, 8:59 pm

Puppies are about 5 1/2 weeks old. I do have Esbilac, but right now they're eating canned Canidae straight, simply because time is at a premium. But if it is very important to mix in the Esbilac, I will certainly make time for it. Pups are right now getting supplemented 3 times a day, and are eating very well.
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Postby Patch O' Pits » May 20th, 2006, 7:43 am

savagem wrote:Puppies are about 5 1/2 weeks old. I do have Esbilac, but right now they're eating canned Canidae straight, simply because time is at a premium. But if it is very important to mix in the Esbilac, I will certainly make time for it. Pups are right now getting supplemented 3 times a day, and are eating very well.
I'd start giving them kibble soaked with a little bit of Esbilac in it and by next week just kibble soaked with water . Then after that just kibble. There really isn't a huge need for the milk replacement unless the pups are not thriving or were much younger IMO
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Postby savagem » May 20th, 2006, 10:30 am

The poop situation is much better now. :) Mama's stools have firmed up quite a bit, and only one puppy has runny stools right now. Unfortunately the cough has resurfaced. :( Went away in the first two pups that had it, but now it's back in others. When they were at the vet yesterday she thought she heard some "wetness" in one of the coughing puppers' lungs, so she put the two coughers on Clavamox. All the pups are spending the night in the warmest room in the house with mama, but they are still in the garage during the day. The thing is, the garage is about the same temp as the house--about 65 degrees. We keep the house at 68. I'm not sure what to do at this point. Mama will not relax anywhere but in the kennel in the garage. Right now at night she is in a large crate with the puppies, but I'm afraid that she is going to hurt one of them because she has these periods where she's frantically trying to escape. She cannot be contained behind any gate that I've found. She will destroy a door if left shut in a room. So should I just let mama spend the night in the kennel, and put the puppies in a crate in the warmest room in the house for the night? I know she is gonna be uncomfortable if she doesn't nurse the babies all night, but her milk production will adjust, right?
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Postby SpiritFngrz » May 20th, 2006, 10:43 am

Patch O' Pits wrote:
savagem wrote:Puppies are about 5 1/2 weeks old. I do have Esbilac, but right now they're eating canned Canidae straight, simply because time is at a premium. But if it is very important to mix in the Esbilac, I will certainly make time for it. Pups are right now getting supplemented 3 times a day, and are eating very well.
I'd start giving them kibble soaked with a little bit of Esbilac in it and by next week just kibble soaked with water . Then after that just kibble. There really isn't a huge need for the milk replacement unless the pups are not thriving or were much younger IMO


Yah that's what I mean. Since they're 5 and a half weeks. At this point you can phase it out
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Postby LindsaySF » May 21st, 2006, 12:52 pm

savagem wrote:The poop situation is much better now. :) Mama's stools have firmed up quite a bit, and only one puppy has runny stools right now. Unfortunately the cough has resurfaced. :( Went away in the first two pups that had it, but now it's back in others. When they were at the vet yesterday she thought she heard some "wetness" in one of the coughing puppers' lungs, so she put the two coughers on Clavamox. All the pups are spending the night in the warmest room in the house with mama, but they are still in the garage during the day. The thing is, the garage is about the same temp as the house--about 65 degrees. We keep the house at 68. I'm not sure what to do at this point. Mama will not relax anywhere but in the kennel in the garage. Right now at night she is in a large crate with the puppies, but I'm afraid that she is going to hurt one of them because she has these periods where she's frantically trying to escape. She cannot be contained behind any gate that I've found. She will destroy a door if left shut in a room. So should I just let mama spend the night in the kennel, and put the puppies in a crate in the warmest room in the house for the night? I know she is gonna be uncomfortable if she doesn't nurse the babies all night, but her milk production will adjust, right?

I just read this today. Puppies are surprisingly resistant to being stepped on by mom, but if she really is insanely frantic she could hurt them. If it is too cold in the garage at night I would bring the puppers inside the house. If Susie can't calm down, she may have to stay in the garage. :(

Does she jump over gates? You might be able to tie her to something so she can't jump the gate or push it down. That way the pups will be with her in the same room, but not in a crate so she won't step all over them. :|


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