Savagem needs Help with Mother and pups

Food, Fitness and how to keep them healthy.

Postby a-bull » May 18th, 2006, 7:16 am

LindsaySF wrote:Wormy girl and Linky Lindsay are one in the same. And here I am. :) Link theif!! :P

And thankfully the pups are being treated for the hookworm too. The first vet Mel went to wanted to wait to treat them, even though momma Susie was infected. Ummm... hello? The larvae are passed in the breast milk! But I mentioned it to Mel, and she set them straight. :D

I've exchanged emails with Mel on this a little about possible causes for her loose stool, but I think she was hoping that those of you that have fostered a mom and pups before would some additional advice.

Melanie, one thing I forgot to ask you, when did Susie's loose stool start? I just remembered that her stool was nice and solid when I dropped her off with Jenn, even though she was infected with hookworms. So the hookworms probably did not do any permanent damage to the intestines or anything.

Being wormy girl, I was all about the hookworms, but maybe her loose stool is just the result of the food change and not the worms at all? :|


~Lindsay~


Oh wow, you're like Sybil, LOL! So do you see hookworms around every corner? (teasing) . . .

Nice to have someone knowledgeable on board. :)

Bring on the links!!
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Postby a-bull » May 18th, 2006, 7:20 am

The raw feeders on here can tell you more, but I agree that raw while they have issues is probably a bad plan.

As I research raw, it does contain high levels of various bacteria, and I'm pretty sure if the pup's immune systems aren't up to snuff at the moment, that could be a real issue.

I love that second one up from the bottom on the right. Is he the runt? I usually gravitate towards runts. :heartbeat:

What mix are the parents? What's their history??
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Postby SisMorphine » May 18th, 2006, 7:32 am

a-bull wrote:The raw feeders on here can tell you more, but I agree that raw while they have issues is probably a bad plan.

Yeah, the immune system needs to be up and running before introducing a raw diet. I also, personally, like to get the good bacteria going, too, with a probiotic a week or so before I begin raw just to make sure it's the smoothest transition possible.

But either way it doesn't sound like momma is up for that right now.

I would seriously change her food to the Euk Low-Res and see if it starts to firm up in the next few days. Low-Res is a food you can switch to cold turkey because it is a bland diet without seeing any negative effects on the stool. Has she been given any flagyl or anything? Can preggers mommas even be given flagyl? Flagyl and low-res usually make for some better pooping.

I just remember the 3 weeks with Wally and the liquid diarrhea and how miserable he, and everyone in the house, was the whole time. I hated finding out that it was simply the food I had him on because it was such an easy change :( His stool wasn't perfect on the low-res, but it was formed and when he was ready to switch to higher end food (Nature's Variety, I did half raw and half kibble at first) he ended up with picture perfect stool.
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Postby a-bull » May 18th, 2006, 7:38 am

I think I've said it before on the site where the pups apparently hail from, but be very careful with diarrhea in pups---they can dehydrate very quickly and you can indeed lose a healthy looking pup that has had diarrhea for too long.

In all the pups I've fostered and adopted, I've never had worm issues.

What's up with this? Have people on here who foster had this much trouble with worms?? :|
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Postby LindsaySF » May 18th, 2006, 8:17 am

SisMorphine wrote:Yeah, the immune system needs to be up and running before introducing a raw diet. I also, personally, like to get the good bacteria going, too, with a probiotic a week or so before I begin raw just to make sure it's the smoothest transition possible.

But either way it doesn't sound like momma is up for that right now.

a-bull wrote:The raw feeders on here can tell you more, but I agree that raw while they have issues is probably a bad plan.

As I research raw, it does contain high levels of various bacteria, and I'm pretty sure if the pup's immune systems aren't up to snuff at the moment, that could be a real issue.


Now guess whose lovely idea it was to immediately switch to raw, when told on the forum of Susie's issues? :rolleyes2:

(Knowing that the puppies are so young, knowing that Susie has worms and is horribly thin, knowing that Susie has traveled around the entire country in the last few weeks...)

And their oh so helpful advice included yelling at Melanie for feeding the pups some wet dog food because it is "full of fillers" and will "rot their teeth". :rolleyes2:

I am so glad we found you guys!! You actually offer HELPFUL advice!! :)



~Lindsay~
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Postby Marinepits » May 18th, 2006, 8:28 am

Eukanuba Low Residue is a great food for diarrhea dogs. Like Sis said, it's very bland and firms stools up very well. I always keep some on hand just in case -- it mixes well with their regular food, too, Merrick's Wilderness Blend.
Last edited by Marinepits on May 18th, 2006, 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby a-bull » May 18th, 2006, 8:31 am

Raw isn't a cure-all . . . it's an option . . . and not for all dogs or all households. Households with small children, elderly or immune suppressed people in it need to be very careful about feeding raw.

I had a dog that ate Pedigree kibble & wet his entire life and lived to be over 15 years and may have even been older according to the vet. He NEVER had a single skin issue and he died with great teeth.

I feed my current dogs better food, (Merrick), use natural oils in their food, etc. . . . but my point is raw is not the curer of all evils and cheaper foods aren't the cause of all ills.

Give your vet a jingle. I'm most sure he/she will not recommend feeding a raw diet to 5 week old worm-ridden pups with diarrhea.
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Postby Maryellen » May 18th, 2006, 8:36 am

alot of dogs that come from the southern states have worms and other parasites..
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Postby Marinepits » May 18th, 2006, 8:37 am

a-bull wrote:Raw isn't a cure-all . . . it's an option . . . and not for all dogs or all households. Households with small children, elderly or immune suppressed people in it need to be very careful about feeding raw.

I had a dog that ate Pedigree kibble & wet his entire life and lived to be over 15 years and may have even been older according to the vet. He NEVER had a single skin issue and he died with great teeth.

I feed my current dogs better food, (Merrick), use natural oils in their food, etc. . . . but my point is raw is not the curer of all evils and cheaper foods aren't the cause of all ills.

Give your vet a jingle. I'm most sure he/she will not recommend feeding a raw diet to 5 week old worm-ridden pups with diarrhea.


Well, the vet MIGHT recommend this if he/she is a distributor and can make money from it. LOL :D

But, I digress. Good post, a-bull!
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Postby dogcrazyjen » May 18th, 2006, 8:40 am

I would wean the pups ASAP and then concentrate on mom. When my mix had a litter, she had BAD tapeworm, tapeworm infested poop everywhere. It just took time, consistancy, and many smaller meals to straighten out her digestive system.

Sounds like you have gotten very good advice so far.
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Postby LindsaySF » May 18th, 2006, 8:45 am

a-bull wrote:I think I've said it before on the site where the pups apparently hail from, but be very careful with diarrhea in pups---they can dehydrate very quickly and you can indeed lose a healthy looking pup that has had diarrhea for too long.

Well momma Susie definitely has diarrhea, but I don't think the pups do? :|


In all the pups I've fostered and adopted, I've never had worm issues.

What's up with this? Have people on here who foster had this much trouble with worms?? :|

What part of the country were your pups from? What season was it? Did they come from an animal shelter? In my research, I have found that these factors are very important in determining the odds that a dog will have worms.

Parasites are rampant in the southern states because the outside conditions are PERFECT for their survival (warm and moist). Heartworm is much more common because these are perfect conditions for mosquitoes, and worm eggs are quite happy in the environment too. And some types of eggs can survive and remain infective for YEARS. Cold winters and other environmental conditions up north will kill many worm eggs in the environment (you can bet that Alaska doesn't have much of a problem with worms...)

The cleaning and housing practices at the shelter also make a huge difference. Shelter dogs that are switched between kennels, don't have waterproof cement walls between the kennels, and have a common play area where they are allowed to defecate are much more likely to get worms while at the shelter, if they did not have them already.

(Mel, correct me if I say something wrong here): Susie came from down south (Georgia?), and from a bad shelter. Two strikes against her already. And even though she was vet checked before transport, a fecal or worming meds for her or the pups was not part of that visit.

Also, dogs often have worms, sometimes a horrendous number of them, and they will show no symptoms at all (no diarrhea, etc). Susie had an extremely heavy hookworm infection, and her stool was not loose or anything until recently. But she easily could have become anemic from blood loss and died (especially as she is so so skinny), and no one would have been the wiser. :(


As for my personal experience, every animal I have adopted from an animal shelter or an animal rescue foster home has had worms. (Well, except for Aidan actually. But he had mange instead). One cat had coccidia, one cat had tapeworms and roundworms, and one dog had coccidia. I am in CT.

My parasitology research in North Haven CT has shown me that about half of the dogs in their shelter are infected at any given time, though closer to 80% of puppies and kittens are infected. I imagine that these rates are much higher in the southern shelters... (And North Haven's cleaning practices are very good).



~Lindsay~
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Postby a-bull » May 18th, 2006, 8:57 am

Marinepits wrote:
a-bull wrote:Raw isn't a cure-all . . . it's an option . . . and not for all dogs or all households. Households with small children, elderly or immune suppressed people in it need to be very careful about feeding raw.

I had a dog that ate Pedigree kibble & wet his entire life and lived to be over 15 years and may have even been older according to the vet. He NEVER had a single skin issue and he died with great teeth.

I feed my current dogs better food, (Merrick), use natural oils in their food, etc. . . . but my point is raw is not the curer of all evils and cheaper foods aren't the cause of all ills.

Give your vet a jingle. I'm most sure he/she will not recommend feeding a raw diet to 5 week old worm-ridden pups with diarrhea.


Well, the vet MIGHT recommend this if he/she is a distributor and can make money from it. LOL :D

But, I digress. Good post, a-bull!


LOL . . . scary thing is, I had that in my post and deleted it, LOL!!
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Postby LindsaySF » May 18th, 2006, 9:05 am

Well, the vet MIGHT recommend this if he/she is a distributor and can make money from it. LOL :D

Seriously, sheesh.... Don't take any raw diet advice from a raw diet distributor.

And I'm not understanding this huge push for the raw diet... Should dogs be on better quality food than Alpo and Ol'Roy? Absolutely. I just don't see why it has to be raw...


~Lindsay~
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Postby a-bull » May 18th, 2006, 9:09 am

Well, I'm in Mass., and I guess the rescues I work with and the shelters I deal with are stellar, because I've never had a dog/pup with worms yet . . . kittens/cats, yes, but that's because I've delt with lots of ferals . . .

All I can say is after hearing how sickly many of these dogs from other states are, I am even MORE adamant about people who rescue following the proper requirements for transporting animals state to state. Proper vet records, health certificates, quarantine requirements, etc. should be followed according to each states requirements. These LAWS are for the safety of the animals, the people handling them, and all the people and animals in the states your transporting to! Diseases that never existed in certain states are showing up in animals as the result of "rescuers" not following regulations that are for everyone's safety!!

Ahh, thanks for the rant. I'm all set now. :)

Back to the pups . . .
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Postby Marinepits » May 18th, 2006, 9:09 am

LindsaySF wrote:
Well, the vet MIGHT recommend this if he/she is a distributor and can make money from it. LOL :D

Seriously, sheesh.... Don't take any raw diet advice from a raw diet distributor.

And I'm not understanding this huge push for the raw diet... Should dogs be on better quality food than Alpo and Ol'Roy? Absolutely. I just don't see why it has to be raw...
~Lindsay~


It only HAS to be raw if you are a distributor and have bills to pay and are building a new house. :wink:
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Postby Maryellen » May 18th, 2006, 9:15 am

arturo came from georgia, he was infested with roundworms.. bad enough the owner didnt worm him, i had to deworm him 3 times....... i have seen that dogs from the south have more funkier parasites and worms and are harder to get rid of...

every other dog that i have fostered that came from up here in the northeast never had a worm or parasite infection...
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Postby SisMorphine » May 18th, 2006, 9:29 am

LindsaySF wrote:
Well, the vet MIGHT recommend this if he/she is a distributor and can make money from it. LOL :D

Seriously, sheesh.... Don't take any raw diet advice from a raw diet distributor.

And I'm not understanding this huge push for the raw diet... Should dogs be on better quality food than Alpo and Ol'Roy? Absolutely. I just don't see why it has to be raw...


~Lindsay~

Personally as a raw feeder I do feel it's the best I can do for my dog. But it's not an option for everyone and I usually don't push it with people unless specifically asked about raw diets. I'll suggest raw treats, but the raw diet is a lifestyle change, not just a food change, and it takes a pretty big commitment.

I'm just happy if most people switch their pets to higher end food.
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Postby cheekymunkee » May 18th, 2006, 9:40 am

SisMorphine wrote:
LindsaySF wrote:
Well, the vet MIGHT recommend this if he/she is a distributor and can make money from it. LOL :D

Seriously, sheesh.... Don't take any raw diet advice from a raw diet distributor.

And I'm not understanding this huge push for the raw diet... Should dogs be on better quality food than Alpo and Ol'Roy? Absolutely. I just don't see why it has to be raw...


~Lindsay~

Personally as a raw feeder I do feel it's the best I can do for my dog. But it's not an option for everyone and I usually don't push it with people unless specifically asked about raw diets. I'll suggest raw treats, but the raw diet is a lifestyle change, not just a food change, and it takes a pretty big commitment.

I'm just happy if most people switch their pets to higher end food.


:goodStuff: I feed raw & it is NOT for everyone & it is NOT the answer to every problem. If it were, Munkee would not be King of the Hot Spots this week ( he has environemental allergies too and is having lots of problems this year). It's a choice like all brands of dog food are, you do what you are comfortable with. Some dogs conditions seem to worsen on raw, Demo ahd Connor on raw for a while & he did horribly on it. He is now on high quality kibble & looks fantastic. And yes, we do have a huge worm problem down this way & with our milder than normal winter it is going to be a rough year bug wise for animals AND humans.
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Postby savagem » May 18th, 2006, 10:45 am

Wow--SO much advise here! Thank you all. Just to clarify one important detail--puppies have been wormed once with Nemex, and are now on a worming schedule of every two weeks. And Susie is going to the vet tomorrow for vaccination boosters. We are not going with raw. :P Lindsay reminded me of something--when Susie first came she had fairly normal stools. It wasn't until the vet told me I should switch her from Canidae all-stage kibble to puppy food that she developed the diarrhea. The Eukanuba sounds wonderful, and I will try it next. But I think for now I'm going to switch her back over to Canidae and in the meantime work on weaning the pups completely. One question I still have--is using the bleach/water solution helping to kill any eggs/larvae/worms that might still be in her stool?
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Postby a-bull » May 18th, 2006, 10:56 am

I think we're starting to get all the pups/dogs confused, or atleast I am---but that's kind of standard for me. :)

I am not a Science Diet fan by any strectch of the immagination, but the vet does sell a presecription Science Diet for abdominal problems. It's very bland and works really well. It's not something you would leave a pup/dog on---it's just until the problem resolves.
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