Culling

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Postby mnp13 » May 13th, 2009, 9:02 am

Malli wrote:I disagree with breeding KNOWING that dogs will have to be put down(whatever method that may be) because of it.


In my mind, that negates pretty much all breeding. If you are breeding with a specific goal, what are the odds that all of the dogs will be what you are looking for? Some breeders don't want any dogs out there that don't meet their standards, so breeding = culling for them.
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Postby katiek0417 » May 13th, 2009, 11:39 am

mnp13 wrote:
Malli wrote:I disagree with breeding KNOWING that dogs will have to be put down(whatever method that may be) because of it.


In my mind, that negates pretty much all breeding. If you are breeding with a specific goal, what are the odds that all of the dogs will be what you are looking for? Some breeders don't want any dogs out there that don't meet their standards, so breeding = culling for them.


Excellent point! Unfortunately, you breed with a specific goal in mind. However, it's highly unlikely that every dog will have those traits that you are looking for. Personally, I got extremely lucky with Dru's litter (Dru x Ares)...EVERY one of those puppies worked...but that is a highly unlikely scenario. In fact, that litter was 9 puppies. I expected to get 3 that were extremely high drive, 4 that were medium drive, and the rest that were lower drive...Instead, I got 8 that were extremely high drive, and 1 that was medium drive...and all worked...

You have to go into a breeding with realistic expectations on what you may get.
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Postby furever_pit » June 29th, 2009, 9:51 pm

I think culling is a part of responsible breeding as well. Some people will refer to spaying/neutering as the "politically correct" cull. To me, this is not a true cull but I can see where it would be used. I think we also need to remember that pups are also culled for health issues as well as temperament issues.
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Postby Malli » June 30th, 2009, 3:14 am

culling for health issues is IMO an entirely different matter.
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Postby GloriasMom » July 11th, 2009, 11:13 am

Having been a breeder in the past and rescuing pups now and then now -- I think culling is murder -- especially when you deliberately breed merle to merle knowing you will produce handicapped puppies. If a dog doesn't meet breed standards, so what -- there are a lot of people looking for a purebred dog they won't want to breed. The people who cull don't want it known that they produce puppies that aren't perfect. It's all about them and what they need and the hell with the puppy.

Having said that...I did cull a puppy from a litter of pit bulls I got from KY. They had been thrown over a rescue's fence as newborns and landed on cement. Two were dead when found, one died later and I took the other 3 to place here where dog fighting isn't so rampant. Two were nice normal terrier puppies but one wasn't. At 16 weeks he was viciously attacking Gloria who had formerly been his friend. He used to cuddle with her and then one day turned on her and could not be allowed any where near her. I have a photo of the damage he did to her neck. God bless her, she never fought back, she just tried to get away and was so sad. :(

We discussed it with out vet and decided that Harley was probably brain damaged and that it was just now showing up. He was dangerous to one dog now and the fact that it was a dog he knew and formerly loved, made it very worrisome. He was only going to get bigger, stronger and more dangerous. We made the heartbreaking choice to remove him from the gene pool for everyone's safety.

Killing a puppy should break your heart. If it doesn't you are broken and should be culled.

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Postby mnp13 » July 13th, 2009, 12:49 pm

GloriasMom wrote:If a dog doesn't meet breed standards, so what -- there are a lot of people looking for a purebred dog they won't want to breed. The people who cull don't want it known that they produce puppies that aren't perfect. It's all about them and what they need and the hell with the puppy.

To some people, it isn't "so what."

Here's an example: someone breeds dogs for a specific purpose - show, work, whatever - let's pick show just for this. They get a litter of six puppies. Two are stunners with impecable temperaments, one is a stunner but just average temperament, one is ok but nothing special, one is definatly not show quality with average temperament, one is not show quality but good temperament. We'll assume that all homes will be active and "out there" with their dogs.

Which ones does the breeder want out in public to represent the breed and the kennel? Every dog they produce says something about the lines, the kennel and the breeder. Having a less-than-ideal dog representing them is not what some people want. They can't stop an owner from identifying the lines, kennel, etc when asked, so that reflects poorly on all the dogs and people involved in creating that dog.

Another example: Dogs with no apparent genetic defects have a puppy that is deaf (we'll assume it's just a random thing). Deaf dogs can live happy, healthy, productive lives. But does that breeder want people in the working/show world to see that dog and assume that the lines have genetic problems? Something like that could ruin the reputation of the breeder and their entire line.

EVERY breeding has the potential to have puppies that do not fit the goals of the litter. Lots of people talk about not buying a dog but rescuing one instead. Is it better to have breeders placing less-than-ideal dogs? That's up to the breeder.

Killing a puppy should break your heart. If it doesn't you are broken and should be culled.

There is a difference between doing it for a reason and just "killing them." I seriously doubt any responsible breeder finds putting down puppies a "fun" thing to do. I agree that anyone who enjoys it is a sick individual. That said, I don't judge the breeders who choose to cull. There are many reasons that I don't breed, and being unsure that I could cull a puppy if it didn't fit the goal of the litter is one of them.
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Postby DemoDick » July 15th, 2009, 10:38 pm

GloriasMom wrote:Killing a puppy should break your heart. If it doesn't you are broken and should be culled.


**edited** though I understand the sentiment, you are an educated and articulate adult, so you can find a better way to express your opinion. I don't particularly "like" what GloriasMom said, but swearing at her will not change her mind. Thanks for listening. Love, Michelle

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Postby BullyLady » July 15th, 2009, 10:50 pm

DemoDick wrote:
GloriasMom wrote:Killing a puppy should break your heart. If it doesn't you are broken and should be culled.


smurf you.

Demo Dick


I always enjoy the subtle intricacies of your discourse Demo. :wink:

GloriasMom, this isn't a subject that is black and white and it's inappropriate for you to judge people who are working just as hard to better the breed and it's reputation as I know that you are, just because you don't fully grasp the hows and whys of their practices.
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Postby kera09 » July 15th, 2009, 10:57 pm

whatever they want to do is up to them. but i think ALL breeders should chill out for awhile until shelters arent 100% full ALL THE TIME. in a perfect world that would happen....
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Postby DemoDick » July 15th, 2009, 11:16 pm

kera09 wrote:whatever they want to do is up to them. but i think ALL breeders should chill out for awhile until shelters arent 100% full ALL THE TIME. in a perfect world that would happen....


It is not the fault of the good breeders that shelters are full. They are not the problem.

If I were to ever breed, I would cull hard and most people would be hard-pressed to get their hands on one of my dogs. I would also require a civil agreement, drawn up by a lawyer, preventing the owner from ever placing the dog anywhere but right back with me should a problem arise. NONE of my dogs would end up in shelters and if one did, I would be getting it back and suing the crap out of the owner for breach of contract.

Most likely, I would keep pick male and female and cull every other pup. CULL, not alter.

But understand I'm a cold, heartless asshole who probably doesn't even deserve to breathe.

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Postby amazincc » July 16th, 2009, 12:37 am

DemoDick wrote:
Most likely, I would keep pick male and female and cull every other pup. CULL, not alter.
Demo Dick


WHY??? This is the part I don't get, I guess... why NOT speuter them and place them as pets??? W/the same civil agreement, of course.

I would make a really crappy breeder, I think... I couldn't kill 8 pups out of a litter of ten. And let's call it what it is... it's killing, not culling. :rolleyes2: :neutral:
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Postby TheRedQueen » July 16th, 2009, 12:42 am

Yeah...I don't get the culling because the pup is not up to standard...I'd have more respect for a breeder that sells spay/neutered pups that are not up to the breeder's ideals...rather than respecting one that kills anything deemed not good enough.

Of course I've got a bunch of rejects at my house... :|
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Postby amazincc » July 16th, 2009, 12:44 am

TheRedQueen wrote:Yeah...I don't get the culling because the pup is not up to standard...I'd have more respect for a breeder that sells spay/neutered pups that are not up to the breeder's ideals...rather than respecting one that kills anything deemed not good enough.

Of course I've got a bunch of rejects at my house... :|


Me too... but I can't imagine it any other way. :)
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Postby DemoDick » July 16th, 2009, 8:28 am

amazincc wrote:WHY??? This is the part I don't get, I guess... why NOT speuter them and place them as pets??? W/the same civil agreement, of course.


Because shelters are full of pets. No need to make more. I'm talking about breeding for work, and work only. I don't believe in breeding for "pet quality." I have a problem with the hypothetical working dog breeder who produces pet quality dogs and then sells them for a profit. Is this about money, or bettering the breed? I would never want dogs that I produced to become someone else's burden.

I would make a really crappy breeder, I think... I couldn't kill 8 pups out of a litter of ten. And let's call it what it is... it's killing, not culling. :rolleyes2: :neutral:


When have you ever known me to use a euphemism in order to soften my tone? I use the term "culling" (and specifically explained what that means) because it is killing for a very specific purpose, and is widely understood as such in breeding circles.

In my opinion, responsible breeders cull. Finding one that does these days is damn tough.

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Postby furever_pit » July 16th, 2009, 9:09 am

Demo has brought up some really good points. I agree that one should never purposefully breed for pet quality dogs. Pets should be the BYPRODUCT of a breeding, while the intention of the breeding should be to improve on the working abilities of the parents. But, undoubtedly, not every pup in every litter is going to be working quality.

So what do you do with those pups that are not working prospects? For those that have "issues" - whether they be temperamental or medical I believe that the responsible breeder has two options, to cull or to keep those dogs themselves. IMO it is wrong of a breeder to place such a dog into a home because I think the people who end up with the dog will end up with broken hearts.

And for those puppies who don't have any issues but do not seem to be working quality dogs then I would prefer to spay/neuter them and get them in good homes. But the truth is that the people I would trust with my dogs are few and far between and I would rather cull a pup than put it into a home that I don't think is the right fit.
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Postby LMM » July 16th, 2009, 9:26 am

Yea, I don't have the stomach or the heart for this. And all in all it makes me extremely uncomfortable that it goes on.
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Postby kera09 » July 16th, 2009, 10:25 am

DemoDick wrote:
kera09 wrote:whatever they want to do is up to them. but i think ALL breeders should chill out for awhile until shelters arent 100% full ALL THE TIME. in a perfect world that would happen....


It is not the fault of the good breeders that shelters are full. They are not the problem.

If I were to ever breed, I would cull hard and most people would be hard-pressed to get their hands on one of my dogs. I would also require a civil agreement, drawn up by a lawyer, preventing the owner from ever placing the dog anywhere but right back with me should a problem arise. NONE of my dogs would end up in shelters and if one did, I would be getting it back and suing the crap out of the owner for breach of contract.

Most likely, I would keep pick male and female and cull every other pup. CULL, not alter.

But understand I'm a cold, heartless asshole who probably doesn't even deserve to breathe.

Demo Dick




yes but most breeders do not go that far into things, there are good breeders but a ton more BYB that are screwing crap up! and yes you must be heartless to KILL a puppy :confused:
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Postby kera09 » July 16th, 2009, 10:39 am

i cant believe ive never heard of all of this before i read this post, once again im an idiot. it makes me sick tho!
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Postby furever_pit » July 16th, 2009, 10:46 am

Culling is not a new thing. It has been going on as long as people have been breeding dogs. It is a wonderful tool when people are breeding responsibly.

To be perfectly honest, today's lack of culling is a problem IMO.
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Postby LMM » July 16th, 2009, 10:50 am

See I get why it's necessary, not that it makes me feel any better. But when killing puppies is described as a "wonderful tool" is where I can no longer stomach the whole process.

Necessary tool? Maybe, most definitely according to some. Wonderful? Not effin' likely.
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