Culling

Food, Fitness and how to keep them healthy.

Postby LMM » May 7th, 2009, 11:17 am

Call it my own morbid curiosity but every time the subject of culling comes up, I find myself wondering about it. I've put it off for so long because I told myself I reallllly don't need to know but apparently I do. So I figured I'd ask my questions on a board where someone is likely to know.

1. How do you know you need to cull, what are you looking for? And for that matter when does this usually happen?

2. Is it done humanely? Please don't take offense but when I think of culling all I can picture is some breeder barbarically breaking a puppy's neck :(

I guess I'm just looking for someone to explain the process :confused: and I really hope I don't regret asking, yea I'm a wimp that way.
User avatar
LMM
I'll Kick Your Ass
 
Posts: 1834
Location: Bitch please....

Postby mnp13 » May 7th, 2009, 11:47 am

1. Two of the seven dogs in Riggs' litter were culled at about 10 weeks when it was clear they had inherited all of their dad's dominance. The reasons for culling vary as widely as the reasons that people breed.

2. I'm not sure. Some people consider culling to be "removing from the gene pool" so say that they "cull their litter" by altering the dogs that don't meet the aims of the breeder. In my opinion, culling is putting the puppies down and only before about 12 weeks. After that, it's just putting the dog down. I personally feel that culling is part of responsible breeding.
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17232
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby BullyLady » May 7th, 2009, 11:48 am

This discussion was had on another board, and one thing that I learned that made it easier for me to take, is that the definition of culling is to take a dog out of the gene pool. Meaning that sometimes spay/neuter is used as a form of culling, but referred to as culling so that people will understand why the dog was speutered. That gave me a little peace about the whole issue. I now choose to believe that every animal that is culled is speutered...... :rolleyes2:
"I'm not all bad but I'm a faithful sinner."
~Dave Matthews
Cathleen
Shelby - AB Mix 1 yr - CGC
User avatar
BullyLady
Proud Uber Nerd
 
Posts: 1060
Location: E Washington State

Postby maberi » May 7th, 2009, 1:53 pm

I've always wondered as to the age they cull

So is it safe to say you have an accurate picture of a dogs personality at the age of 10 weeks?

mnp13 wrote:1. Two of the seven dogs in Riggs' litter were culled at about 10 weeks when it was clear they had inherited all of their dad's dominance. The reasons for culling vary as widely as the reasons that people breed.
Look beyond what your own eyes see
User avatar
maberi
I Save My Empty Calories For The Bottle
 
Posts: 2781
Location: rochester, ny

Postby mnp13 » May 7th, 2009, 3:14 pm

maberi wrote:I've always wondered as to the age they cull

So is it safe to say you have an accurate picture of a dogs personality at the age of 10 weeks?


Me personally? No. But a breeder who has raised / lived with the puppies for the first 10 weeks of its life, I would assume that yes they would.

I don't believe that spay/neuter is culling. Culling is killing. If a breeder s/n's a puppy because it isn't want they were looking for in their lines that's fine; however, in my book they are not culling. That's fine, but for me, breeding should have a purpose. You're not going to necessarily get a litter of puppies that fit that purpose - the question is, what to do with the ones that aren't what you wanted?

With some breeds and some temperaments, you can probably place in a pet or lower level working home. However with some breeds and temperaments, the dogs won't work for their job but may not be at all suitable for a "pet only" home.

I can't imagine some of the Flyball and Agility dogs that I've seen in a "normal" household. They would eat the walls, couch and everything in between just out of sheer boredom.
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17232
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby fenella » May 8th, 2009, 1:21 am

mnp13 wrote:1. Two of the seven dogs in Riggs' litter were culled at about 10 weeks when it was clear they had inherited all of their dad's dominance. The reasons for culling vary as widely as the reasons that people breed.


Not trying to start anything here, but if the dad was dominant, and that was a bad thing, why was he bred? Did the puppies end up being more aggressive than the sire or something?
User avatar
fenella
Hyper Adolescent Bully
 
Posts: 286
Location: Maryland

Postby katiek0417 » May 8th, 2009, 5:05 am

Me personally? No. But a breeder who has raised / lived with the puppies for the first 10 weeks of its life, I would assume that yes they would.


Okay, I know breeders who cull and those who don't. Most that do, do so WITHIN the first 3-4 weeks of life (and this is, sadly, common practice in the US and Europe with MANY). So, it does beg the question: can you tell at that age what a puppy is going to be like. My answer? No. Puppies change EVERY day. I've seen that first hand

In addition, you're talking about 10 weeks...but, in reality, how many breeders keep their puppies until they're 10 weeks old? That's not a reality. UNLESS the breeder plans on raising the litter and placing them later, this doesn't happen. Most litters are gone at 7-8 weeks.

Another dose of reality, most breeders do not do it in ways that we consider to be "humane."

Personally, if I have to cull, I do so with a speuter then place in a pet home. I offer free training to these people...and I keep in close contact with these people...if at some point the dog "turns on" I offer to take the dog back (first right of refusal)...This is just the way I do it...
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

Katrina
Sacha CGC - Dumb Lab
Nisha CGC, PDC, PSA TC, PSA 1 - Crazy Malinois
Drusilla SLUT- Pet
Nemo - Dual-Purpose Narcotics
Cy TC, PSA 1, PSA 2, 2009 PSA Level 3 National Champion
Axo - Psycho Puppy
Rocky - RIP My Baby Boy
User avatar
katiek0417
pointy ear hoarder
 
Posts: 6280
Location: Glen Burnie, MD

Postby DemoDick » May 8th, 2009, 8:45 am

fenella wrote:Not trying to start anything here, but if the dad was dominant, and that was a bad thing, why was he bred? Did the puppies end up being more aggressive than the sire or something?


You're assuming that dominance is a bad thing. It isn't. You breed a dog to a bitch that compliment each other's structural and temperamental strengths and weaknesses. If you are looking to produce bitework dogs, there's gotta be some spice in there somewhere or the product comes out pretty bland. If the sire is very dominant and you wish to temper that, you find a suitably soft female, or vice-versa.

To me, culling is killing. I feel it is a part of responsible breeding, and obviously should be done as humanely as possible.

Demo Dick
"My first priority will be to reinstate the assault weapons ban PERMANENTLY as soon as I take office...I intend to work with Congress on a national no carry law, 1 gun a month purchase limits, and bans on all semi-automatic guns."-Barack Obama
"When in doubt, whip it out."-Nuge
User avatar
DemoDick
They Like to Fondle My Gun
 
Posts: 1910
Location: New York

Postby mnp13 » May 8th, 2009, 9:19 am

fenella wrote:
mnp13 wrote:1. Two of the seven dogs in Riggs' litter were culled at about 10 weeks when it was clear they had inherited all of their dad's dominance. The reasons for culling vary as widely as the reasons that people breed.


Not trying to start anything here, but if the dad was dominant, and that was a bad thing, why was he bred? Did the puppies end up being more aggressive than the sire or something?


dominance is not a bad thing when it's a normal level of dominance. Baxter was a total ass, but manageable. The two puppies at about 8 weeks were showing signs of being more of an ass than Baxter... and that says something. Mom was a soft, mushy show dog selected to temper Baxter's personality.
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17232
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby TheRedQueen » May 11th, 2009, 9:12 am

In Aussies...(as well as other breeds with the merle gene)...culling is done when a merle to merle breeding happens (on purpose or otherwise). A certain percentage of the pups will be born with a majority of white on them...which often leads to deafness or blindness or other medical problems. They're called Homozygous or "Lethal Whites". While I think it's a good idea to cull such puppies...since otherwise they clog up the rescues with blind and deaf white dogs...I don't agree with many breeders who purposely breed merle to merle to get flashier colored dogs, and then cull the whites. That's not responsible to me... :|
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
User avatar
TheRedQueen
I thought I lost my Wiener... but then I found him.
 
Posts: 7184
Location: Maryland

Postby Malli » May 11th, 2009, 2:13 pm

I agree Erin, not only is that awful, I think it goes right against what a true breeder should be :(

That just seems so, contradictory; breeding a dog - wich should be for the all around improvement of the breed and the love of dogs, but only breeding for looks and then killing what you KNEW would come from it.
I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day, tomorrow doesn't look good either.
_______________________________________
"You didn't know of the magical powers of the break stick? It's up there with genies and Harry Potter as far as magic levels go." SisMorphine 01/07/07
User avatar
Malli
E-I-E-I-O!
 
Posts: 6341
Location: CANADA EH?

Postby plebayo » May 11th, 2009, 5:56 pm

I think culling some of the litter is one of the most responsible things a breeder can do.

In terms of spaying/neutering, if you've produced puppies, like some that have been mentioned that are overly dominant and showing signs of aggression early on it is more responsible for the animal to be killed[euthanized] than for it to be altered and sold/adopted to a family. You are only prolonging the inevitable.

I think especially in large dog breeds and breeds dealing with BSL it is safer for puppies showing signs of temperment issues early on to be culled from the litter than to send them out on an altering contract. At some point the dog's temperment will flare and there will be a problem and you're only adding to the bad rep that large dog breeds and breeds dealing with BSL already have.

We actually have a dog who comes in to the clinic I work at. She is a Rottweiler and at the young age of 8 weeks for her first exam showed signs of being aggressive towards people. She is now 2-3yrs old and tried to attack one of out staff in a parking lot[she was just walking in from her car]. She literally lunged at the end up her leash and went up on her hind legs while the owner tried to contain her. I'm not a breeder, but I know that good breeders know their puppies and a good breeder should have seen early on that that particular puppy was going to have problems because you could see it right away when she came in for her exam.

I do agree that if a dog already has a temperment problem IE: overly dominant, fearful etc because I do agree you're setting yourself up to cull puppies that wouldn't need to be culled if the breeding had never taken place. I also know though that you can breed an even tempered dog to another even tempered dog and get dogs with temperment issues. Breeding is kind of a crap shoot and I do think it's situational. It sounds like in the breeding mentioned above the dog had some dominance issues but they thought he could produce nice puppies if crossed with a female who was more easy going. I'm glad the breeder caught on that these puppies were going to be worse than the father, to me that really is what breeding is about.
Suzanne
Seth, CGC & LiLo
♥♥Sofie - Always in my heart. ♥♥
User avatar
plebayo
Mrs. Dr. Kildare
 
Posts: 941
Location: Oregon

Postby Malli » May 12th, 2009, 3:40 am

Oh, I don't disagree.

I disagree with TheRedQueen's example of breeding a dog(s) knowing you are going to get dog's with medical handicaps and issues that will then be euthanized (by whatever method). I recognize that culling pups in this situation (instead of flooding rescues and shelters with these dogs) is responsible, how about just avoiding such breedings in the first place? :neutral:
I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day, tomorrow doesn't look good either.
_______________________________________
"You didn't know of the magical powers of the break stick? It's up there with genies and Harry Potter as far as magic levels go." SisMorphine 01/07/07
User avatar
Malli
E-I-E-I-O!
 
Posts: 6341
Location: CANADA EH?

Postby DemoDick » May 12th, 2009, 9:01 am

Malli wrote:Oh, I don't disagree.

I disagree with TheRedQueen's example of breeding a dog(s) knowing you are going to get dog's with medical handicaps and issues that will then be euthanized (by whatever method). I recognize that culling pups in this situation (instead of flooding rescues and shelters with these dogs) is responsible, how about just avoiding such breedings in the first place? :neutral:


To which breedings are you referring? The ones Erin wrote about or the one that Michelle referenced?

Demo Dick
"My first priority will be to reinstate the assault weapons ban PERMANENTLY as soon as I take office...I intend to work with Congress on a national no carry law, 1 gun a month purchase limits, and bans on all semi-automatic guns."-Barack Obama
"When in doubt, whip it out."-Nuge
User avatar
DemoDick
They Like to Fondle My Gun
 
Posts: 1910
Location: New York

Postby Mickle » May 12th, 2009, 9:41 am

I think she was just using it as an example of when culling is done and not as a breeding she agrees with
Liisa
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken
User avatar
Mickle
Loyally Bully
 
Posts: 556
Location: Pepperell, MA

Postby mnp13 » May 12th, 2009, 12:15 pm

plebayo wrote:I do agree that if a dog already has a temperment problem IE: overly dominant, fearful etc because I do agree you're setting yourself up to cull puppies that wouldn't need to be culled if the breeding had never taken place.

Well, that could be said about any breeding. No matter what the aim of the litter, you are always going to get varied results. Not every dog is going to fit the goals of the litter, and the ones that don't are the ones that, in my opinion, should be culled. I do not believe in breeding to intentionally create pets. Ever.

Being extremely dominant is not a temperament problem. It may not be desired by many people, but it's not necessarily a problem either. I own a very very dominant dog, he was pick of his litter because of his other traits, his dominance was just something that came along with the good stuff. Riggs is not the dog for everyone - in fact he's not the right dog for most people. Frankly, a lot of times he's not the right dog for me. I would never send him back where he came from, and with few exceptions I would never re-home him either.

I also know though that you can breed an even tempered dog to another even tempered dog and get dogs with temperment issues. Breeding is kind of a crap shoot and I do think it's situational. It sounds like in the breeding mentioned above the dog had some dominance issues but they thought he could produce nice puppies if crossed with a female who was more easy going. I'm glad the breeder caught on that these puppies were going to be worse than the father, to me that really is what breeding is about.

Actually, breeding to a female with the same level of dominance would have likely created puppies that few people would have wanted to even bother with - though they would likely have been structurally sound and have great work ethic. Riggs' brother and sister have been quite sucessful in the AKC show ring, Jill's temperament came through on them and created a couple of "total package" dogs that many people would be happy to own, even with their high drive.

Riggs is an ass, plain and simple. He and I are experts at pushing each other's buttons. At the same time he is uber-drivey and wants to work and wants to please. Well, until he doesn't want to please then that's where the "I'm a dominant jackass" comes into play.
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17232
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby Patch O' Pits » May 12th, 2009, 7:30 pm

Awe, stop piking on Riggs. He is a doll!
Patch O' Pits Pursuit-O-Perfection

Run Hard at the Rainbow Bridge My Angel Sock-M! I Love You Baby Girl! Now that your Mom Starlit is up there too, please help her learn the ropes, love and keep her company until I can see you both again. Starlit I love you!
http://i14.tinypic.com/2a8q345.jpg
User avatar
Patch O' Pits
Welcome Wagger
 
Posts: 4426
Location: Northeastern, USA

Postby DemoDick » May 12th, 2009, 9:49 pm

Patch O' Pits wrote:Awe, stop piking on Riggs. He is a doll!


So was Chucky.

Demo Dick
"My first priority will be to reinstate the assault weapons ban PERMANENTLY as soon as I take office...I intend to work with Congress on a national no carry law, 1 gun a month purchase limits, and bans on all semi-automatic guns."-Barack Obama
"When in doubt, whip it out."-Nuge
User avatar
DemoDick
They Like to Fondle My Gun
 
Posts: 1910
Location: New York

Postby TheRedQueen » May 12th, 2009, 9:56 pm

Dolls are scary and out to get me...:lookaround:
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
User avatar
TheRedQueen
I thought I lost my Wiener... but then I found him.
 
Posts: 7184
Location: Maryland

Postby Malli » May 13th, 2009, 3:33 am

Mickle wrote:I think she was just using it as an example of when culling is done and not as a breeding she agrees with


what Mickle said :)


I disagree with breeding KNOWING that dogs will have to be put down(whatever method that may be) because of it.
I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day, tomorrow doesn't look good either.
_______________________________________
"You didn't know of the magical powers of the break stick? It's up there with genies and Harry Potter as far as magic levels go." SisMorphine 01/07/07
User avatar
Malli
E-I-E-I-O!
 
Posts: 6341
Location: CANADA EH?

Next

Return to Nutrition & Health

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

cron