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Postby SisMorphine » May 5th, 2009, 11:43 pm

BullyLady wrote:Wait.... so you bred a dog whose current OFA evaluation was negative? Now, if it had come back subluxated and then you re evaluated her before breeding her and it came back with a positive evaluation, that I would not have a problem with. But you talk about Wally and watching him die, well I had to watch Sophie slowly waste and die from hip dysplasia. Maybe her breeder's bitch was in heat at the time of OFA and he decided to go along with it anyways.....

And, to whom has Teeny proven her working ability? Certainly not to any nationally recognized and regulated organizations, otherwise she'd be titled. I think Shelby is an AMAZING working prospect. I think that.

The whole thing is just a little much for me, I thought more of you than this.

Cathleen: she was bred prior to getting the hip results back. Again, I'm not a liar, no, so I'm going to lay it all out there. No matter her hip results she would have been bred. This is a controlled breeding for a purpose. Personally I don't feel her hips to be an issue according to her movement and conformation.

Teeny has proven her working ability to Mike (amongst others), the foremost person IN this breed. I have had a police dog trainer say that she had the ability to be a police dog . . . which is something that most dogs in bitework are not cut out for.

Only a handful of Alapahas have recieved there CGC. 7 have earned their TT, ONLY 1-2 have earned their registration through TDI, and only one (Blue) has earned it's registration through TDInc. Katrina or Britney can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think only 2 or 3 have earned their PDC through PSA.

Teeny is the first Alapaha to be registered through CPE and will be the first Alapaha to be titled in agility. Sure, I would have liked to have had her titled first to avoid this bullshit, but due to timing that didn't happen.

This litter (who by the way is NOT up for sale!!) is going to be a very nice working litter.

These dogs were not health tested for the things that APBTs are traditionally tested for because THEY DO NOT SUCCUMB TO THOSE ISSUES. Cancer, which is obviously my biggest, isn't a normal problem in the breed. I know of many purebred dog breeders, from Boxer, to APBT, to Golden who have to deal with cancer at a young age on a regular basis. That is not the Alapaha. They are not prone to cancer, bad hips, bad eyes, bad heart, etc that most other breed have to worry about and I'm lucky for that.

I also didn't want the board to think that I was hiding this from them. I just felt that it was inappropriate to announce a litter on a rescue based board, and was trying to figure out the best way to announce it.
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Postby airwalk » May 5th, 2009, 11:50 pm

So regardless of her hip results you would have bred...so this wasn't a matter of breeding the best to the best to ensure only the best...so Alyssa, you call it a controlled breeding ... it's beginning to sound like something else to which I won't give a name.
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Postby SisMorphine » May 5th, 2009, 11:55 pm

airwalk wrote:So regardless of her hip results you would have bred...so this wasn't a matter of breeding the best to the best to ensure only the best...so Alyssa, you call it a controlled breeding ... it's beginning to sound like something else to which I won't give a name.

Darling, this is a new breed. This is taking what you love from one dog and breeding it to what you love from another dog. This IS best to best. And in addition to best to best, this is the responsibility of following up down the line. That is the important part of these guys. The people who breed these dogs keep a close eye on what happens. This is about the dogs. Period. No one is making money off of this litter, nor are they expecting "cute itty bitty babies." :|
"All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another." -Anatole France
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Postby airwalk » May 5th, 2009, 11:58 pm

Okay, my response will only degenerate this conversation so I'm just going to bow out...but please remember something....new breeds have a bad habit of becoming something other than intended and often end up down the line as mutts.

I'm sure every "new breed" was intended to be watched and cared for..I have a bunch of them in my shelter every day.

Good luck I hope everything goes well and you meet your intended goals..I do not approve but you really don't care about that, do you?
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Postby BullyLady » May 5th, 2009, 11:59 pm

Alright, heard and understood. But I can't back it up, I feel you did this incorrectly and for the wrong reasons. That's all from me.
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Postby Mickle » May 6th, 2009, 12:01 am

I think they are gonna be cute itty bitty babies...with one hell of a bite!! HEHE! YAY working babies!
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Postby Mickle » May 6th, 2009, 12:03 am

Oh and Alapahas arent new like cavapoos are new and Alyssa is plenty responsible to make sure those puppies have the right homes and dont end up in shelters.
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Postby SisMorphine » May 6th, 2009, 12:09 am

airwalk wrote:Okay, my response will only degenerate this conversation so I'm just going to bow out...but please remember something....new breeds have a bad habit of becoming something other than intended and often end up down the line as mutts.

I'm sure every "new breed" was intended to be watched and cared for..I have a bunch of them in my shelter every day.

Good luck I hope everything goes well and you meet your intended goals..I do not approve but you really don't care about that, do you?

Diana, I don't care about whether or not you approve. As I said earlier in this thread: prior to learning more I felt the same way. smurf breeding dogs. No dogs DESERVE to be bred. Blah Blah Blah. But again, I learned more about breeding from all sides. And I learned more about MY side.

I also know about new breeds degenerating into something they weren't intended to be. Go check out all of the "pet" Alapaha breeders out there. They are ruining what this dog was developed to do, they are taking away the beauty of a working dog simply because people are more willing to pay money for looks than actual working ability of a breed. It's true, feel free to ask any "pet" Alapaha breeder.

You live in the Northwest, so I'm sure every once in a while you run across an Alapaha because I know of a few pretty awful peddlars up that way. But those aren't my dogs. Nor will you ever see my dogs wallowing away in a shelter.
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Postby TinaMartin » May 6th, 2009, 9:01 am

Well this is an interesting way for people to find out. I will jump in and say that this has been thought through and was not a snap decision. How do I know? I have spent A LOT of time talking to Sis. and I happen to be one of the people that she is trusting with a pup. Yes it will be worked and I have some good size boots to fill to do right by this dog. Sis is not doing this on her own but is being mentored by people who I honestly feel know what they are doing and have a track record to prove it.
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Postby airwalk » May 6th, 2009, 9:26 am

Tina, I'm quite sure she is being mentored, but it doesn't change any of the facts that this was a breeding without proper testing or titling and is opposite everything Alyssa has stood for in the past and publicly stated so it's beginning to sound like a breeding for money, fame or personal gratification...none of which are mentioned anywhere in the breeders COE.

And gee, now two of the pups are going to members on PBT - yet Alyssa was trying to figure out a nice way to announce it on a rescue board? Seems as if the pups were peddled pretty effectively to members of a rescue board. So it was no real surprise except to those of us she knew would object.
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Postby SisMorphine » May 6th, 2009, 9:38 am

airwalk wrote:Tina, I'm quite sure she is being mentored, but it doesn't change any of the facts that this was a breeding without proper testing or titling and is opposite everything Alyssa has stood for in the past and publicly stated so it's beginning to sound like a breeding for money, fame or personal gratification...none of which are mentioned anywhere in the breeders COE.

And gee, now two of the pups are going to members on PBT - yet Alyssa was trying to figure out a nice way to announce it on a rescue board? Seems as if the pups were peddled pretty effectively to members of a rescue board. So it was no real surprise except to those of us she knew would object.

Diana, no pups were "peddled". Wow. These pups are being placed in homes who sought me out prior to any breeding taking place. Working homes, raw feeding homes, perfect homes.

I truly don't think I am going against anything that I have said on the board. I have openly admitted to having changed my views of breeding over the past year or two, which is apparent in recent posts on the board.

I had it planned out to let PBT know about the litter on Friday, but unfortunately I was not given the courtesy of being able to announce it myself.
"All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another." -Anatole France
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Postby TinaMartin » May 6th, 2009, 10:57 am

airwalk wrote:Tina, I'm quite sure she is being mentored, but it doesn't change any of the facts that this was a breeding without proper testing or titling and is opposite everything Alyssa has stood for in the past and publicly stated so it's beginning to sound like a breeding for money, fame or personal gratification...none of which are mentioned anywhere in the breeders COE.

And gee, now two of the pups are going to members on PBT - yet Alyssa was trying to figure out a nice way to announce it on a rescue board? Seems as if the pups were peddled pretty effectively to members of a rescue board. So it was no real surprise except to those of us she knew would object.

I can assure you that Alyssa was not the one to approach ME. I approached her. She peddled nothing. Her dog has been worked and proven her worth. She is making no money off the pups, is not seeking fame and it is not for personal gratification. She thought very long and hard about it. If anything she is loosing a boatload of money in the care that she has given Teeny and the pups. As for not posting that was her option. It was going to be posted but someone else was so kind as to do that for her. These are not pups that are going to end up in a shelter or dumped. I feel very lucky that she felt I was good enough and responsible enough to get one of them.
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Postby airwalk » May 6th, 2009, 11:19 am

Well Tina, all I can tell you is reading this thread is just like repeating my average conversation with your average back yard breeder.

They are all convinced their pups are different, their pups are better, their pups will never end up in a shelter, their dog is amazing and the stud is too and they aren't breeding for any reasons but the best.

They are going to make something new and better and they have nothing but the best intentions.

I have this conversation on a regular basis, with folks from many walks of life, with a variety of breeds of dogs and intents.

The breeders COE was something I figured folks here would minimally comply with....seems i was wrong.

Alyssa, as for Teeny being CGC'd..come on..that basic obedience and you and everyone else here knows it. I have a CGC'd dog too...I sure as hell wouldn't use it as an excuse to breed him. That has nothing whatsoever to do with the health or temperament or breedability of your dog...it's simple, it's basic and to use it as in your explanation as to why Teeny is breedable is really a stretch.
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Postby Mickle » May 6th, 2009, 11:40 am

I too approached Alyssa as I have known her for well over two years and have been there for Teenys entire life! She has peddled nothing and isnt a backyard breeder. A ton of thought has been put into this breeding as I have been there for the ENTIRE process. So she preached some stuff before and as been explained in a previous thread her opinion has changed. It happens. Get over it! The breeding happened whether you approve or not and Teenys having pups. Pups are being placed where Alyssa can moniter them and with fantastic homes. The ppl getting pups are fully aware of any testing or lack there of, its not like it was kept a secret.
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Postby a-bull » May 6th, 2009, 12:06 pm

Alyssa~Do these guys suffer from the usual merle genetic issues or defects? (I know very little about this breed, but thought they fell into the merle category). Owning a merle breed that does, (ended up in the rescue system), I was wondering because you mentioned they have few health issues.

Merle can be a bugger . . .
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Postby airwalk » May 6th, 2009, 12:11 pm

Mickle wrote:I too approached Alyssa as I have known her for well over two years and have been there for Teenys entire life! She has peddled nothing and isnt a backyard breeder. A ton of thought has been put into this breeding as I have been there for the ENTIRE process. So she preached some stuff before and as been explained in a previous thread her opinion has changed. It happens. Get over it! The breeding happened whether you approve or not and Teenys having pups. Pups are being placed where Alyssa can moniter them and with fantastic homes. The ppl getting pups are fully aware of any testing or lack there of, its not like it was kept a secret.


Thankfully we are all entitled to our own opinions.

Unfortunately I have no obligation to "get over it"...If my calling things the way I see them is offensive to you...well sorry, but then simply don't read my stuff, cause you're defense isn't going to change my opinion.
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Postby mnp13 » May 6th, 2009, 12:22 pm

1. There was no peddling involved, I have known about this litter since day one, I know for a fact that she was approached, not the other way around.

2. At this time, no dogs are being sold.

3. As I understand it - and please correct me if I'm wrong Alyssa - the litter is more under the charge of the owner of the male, not Alyssa.

4. There is an "understanding" when someone hands you a working dog - and that is that it may be used for breeding and it is somewhat expected that it will be used if asked. No, it's not a hard and fast rule, and no, it's not always on paper. However, it's still out there.

5. I used to be a total anti-breeding holy terror. I'm not anymore.

6. There are two bitches out there who I would breed Riggs to in a heart beat. They are exactly what he needs to temper his faults and magnify his strengths. He doesn't have good OFA results. If I were to breed him the litter would be carefully placed and likely heavily culled. Sometimes "the good of the breed" takes a slightly winding road.

7. I did not agree with this litter from the beginning for a number of reasons. Alyssa and I are friends and I expressed my feelings way back when she first told me about it. I have said everything to her about it that I need to say about it, I don't plan to smack her around here.

8. Sue, posting this was WAY out of line. You knew that Alyssa was going to post it on Friday (or possibly Saturday) I know you knew because I told Jen, and I'm quite positive that she told you. Had Sunday rolled around and nothing, then I would feel differently but I think this was a cheap shot from you especially since you haven't posted in what? A year?

9. Now that a few people have "mysteriously" reappeared on the board, I would hope that you prove that you weren't only here to cause trouble - and keep posting.

10. BYB or not (and she's not) if someone decides to knowingly get a dog from someone who hasn't done what some of us consider to be the "minimum" then that is on that individual.

That's it for now... I have to go get some plants in the ground.
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Postby airwalk » May 6th, 2009, 12:33 pm

Michelle, your signature line seems to apply here.
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Postby airwalk » May 6th, 2009, 12:40 pm

mnp13 wrote:1. There was no peddling involved, I have known about this litter since day one, I know for a fact that she was approached, not the other way around.

So folks just approached her assuming that Teeny would be bred and asked ahead of time if they could have a puppy when and if Teeny was bred? No prior conversation about breeding Teeny?

2. At this time, no dogs are being sold.

There's sold and then there's sold. I'm assuming you are using the definition of exchanging money.

3. As I understand it - and please correct me if I'm wrong Alyssa - the litter is more under the charge of the owner of the male, not Alyssa.

Very thin line

4. There is an "understanding" when someone hands you a working dog - and that is that it may be used for breeding and it is somewhat expected that it will be used if asked. No, it's not a hard and fast rule, and no, it's not always on paper. However, it's still out there.

I don't disagree - once the minimum levels of testing etc are conducted...but please don't give me the new breed crap - that's what goldendoodles were too.

5. I used to be a total anti-breeding holy terror. I'm not anymore.

Your choice..I choose otherwise

6. There are two bitches out there who I would breed Riggs to in a heart beat. They are exactly what he needs to temper his faults and magnify his strengths. He doesn't have good OFA results. If I were to breed him the litter would be carefully placed and likely heavily culled. Sometimes "the good of the breed" takes a slightly winding road.

See and I differ...the good of the breed should be only the best to the best...anything less is not for the good of the breed.

7. I did not agree with this litter from the beginning for a number of reasons. Alyssa and I are friends and I expressed my feelings way back when she first told me about it. I have said everything to her about it that I need to say about it, I don't plan to smack her around here.

8. Sue, posting this was WAY out of line. You knew that Alyssa was going to post it on Friday (or possibly Saturday) I know you knew because I told Jen, and I'm quite positive that she told you. Had Sunday rolled around and nothing, then I would feel differently but I think this was a cheap shot from you especially since you haven't posted in what? A year?

Apparently the only people that were not already aware are those here that would object...so the whole who outed seems to be a rather moot point.

9. Now that a few people have "mysteriously" reappeared on the board, I would hope that you prove that you weren't only here to cause trouble - and keep posting.

Thankfully Michelle, those folks are subject to uber god mod issues.l

10. BYB or not (and she's not) if someone decides to knowingly get a dog from someone who hasn't done what some of us consider to be the "minimum" then that is on that individual.

you say this isn't a byb....I call it as is one. Yes it is on the individual..but this is no different than someone getting a free pup from the paper...maybe have a better chance of getting a good pup... but bottom line, that's the only real difference.

That's it for now... I have to go get some plants in the ground.
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Postby Mickle » May 6th, 2009, 12:45 pm

I could care less if I change your opinion or not. If your entitled to your opinion I too am entitled to mine and mine was get over it.
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