Seppel is at the vet...

[SisMorphine]

I use Primal for my guys and I adore it. Your food guy sounds fantastic

And I'm glad to hear he's doing better. Yay Sepp!!!

[CinderDee]

Great news! Yay Seppel!

[TheRedQueen]

Christine, in case you're interested...I emailed the other trainer that has the lab with the acute case...here's what she told me about his meds...

Simon was put on a high dose of prednisone for a period of 4 months, after which it was tapered off and now he is on no medications. Also, as he was tapering the meds, I was working on rebuilding his confidence about putting things in his mouth, because at that point, I was hoping he would still be able to do service work. I started by having him take a towel or a sock in his mouth, and slowly building up. But, the important part is the high level of pred. I believe it was 80 mg / twice a day for a while and then once a day, and then slowly tapered off from there. It was pretty scary.

[call2arms]

Wow... Did he get very pu/pd (urinating a lot + drinking a lot, accidents in the house, pudginess)?? That's a wow high dose of pred...

[Malli]

yeah, thats a CRAZY high dose of Pred. Is it a big lab?

[TheRedQueen]

He's an average sized lab...short and squat.

I don't know anymore than she told me...

[Mickle]

Thats awesome! YAY Seppel!!! I also use Primal and the stuff is fantastic!! That is a nice food guy!

[Pit♥bull]

Lots of still going your way

[blabsforbullies]

Christine, in case you're interested...I emailed the other trainer that has the lab with the acute case...here's what she told me about his meds...

Simon was put on a high dose of prednisone for a period of 4 months, after which it was tapered off and now he is on no medications. Also, as he was tapering the meds, I was working on rebuilding his confidence about putting things in his mouth, because at that point, I was hoping he would still be able to do service work. I started by having him take a towel or a sock in his mouth, and slowly building up. But, the important part is the high level of pred. I believe it was 80 mg / twice a day for a while and then once a day, and then slowly tapered off from there. It was pretty scary.

Sometimes, in an emergency situation, if you are trying to defeat an immune mediated disease, you have to give enough pred to suppress his immune system. Often it is that high, but rarely does it ever stay that high.

I am SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO glad to hear that Seppel is doing better!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That made my whole day!!!!

[amazincc]

Thanks,all... and especially Dr. Blabs, for all the great info and good thoughts.

I picked up the meds earlier today (30mg twice a day). The vet told me that the only other "unusual" thing she noticed during Mondays exam was that Sepps gums bleed very, very easily... but she saw no evidence of gum disease or tartar build-up.
Hmmm.

Seppel was feeling much, much better... he head-butted Daisy several times, barked, dragged his rope around, being his pesky annoying self all afternoon. YAY!
So, later on I noticed that he's sort of "leaky"... little pee spots all over the house. I took him out pretty frequently because of that, and he peed up a storm each time. He ate okay, but is constantly slurping water.
The breath is still PUTRID, seriously. He did a few surprise-drive-by kissings, and I was close to gagging.

Internet junkie that I am... I googled all those "symptoms" (foul breath, frequent urination and leaky-ness, bleeds easily... yadda... yadda... yadda), and up popped kidney disease.

So, my questions are - should I wait to start him on the Prednisone and ask for a kidney values test first?
The second 2M test won't be back until next week to confirm our vets diagnosis.
If something is wrong w/his kidneys... would the Prednisone make it worse? Could he have a kidney infection, or worse?
I'm 100% certain that the stinky breath is NOT caused by what I'm feeding him... even though my vet still disagrees w/me. She wasn't very happy when I mentioned that I fed him Primal this morning.
Could the Clavamox or the Tramadol (only gave him half his pain med dosage today) make him extra thirsty? Could the whole thing just be a big fat coincidence (the jaw pain, the peeing, the bad breath, and all the other stuff)?
Is it a conspiracy to drive me insane?

He doesn't have a temperature, isn't lethargic or depressed, appetite is good.


I need a drink.

[Marinepits]

Did they do general bloodwork when he was first in the hospital? If so, his kidney values should be included in that bloodwork.

Has he has any pred yet? That makes them very very thirsty so he'll drink and pee a LOT.

[amazincc]

I don't know if they checked his blood for anything else once she suspected MM...

I haven't given him any Pred yet - I was waiting for you guys to chime in first.


Edit: Just looked at my paperwork, and, no, they didn't do any other blood work.

[mnp13]

I've had very well educated vets tell me that raw will kill my dogs, that raw is the best thing in the world and raw is fine as long as it is done correctly.

I've had doctors tell me that red meat will kill you, that any meat will kill you, that no meat will kill you.

I had reconstructive surgery on my feet 10 years ago. I heard the following: there was nothing wrong with them that orthotics wouldn't fix, that my shoes were the whole cause of the problem, that walking barefoot was the problem, that if I didn't have surgery I'd eventually be crippled, that surgery would eventually cause me to be crippled.

Put three experts in a room and the only thing that two of them will ever agree on is that the third has no idea what they are talking about.

MOST medical advice - for people or animals - is colored by the personal experience of the medical professional giving that advice, and almost anything they say is 100% true or 100% false depending on the invidivual needs of the patient. I think Dr. Blabs handles her patients perfectly, gives them her professional recommendations based on her extensive education and then lets them make their own decisions. Berating them isn't going to do any good anyway.

In my personal experience, if there is an issue with any particular batch of raw food then you see changes out the front or back end... usually in technicolor.

[Marinepits]

I don't know if they checked his blood for anything else once she suspected MM...

I haven't given him any Pred yet - I was waiting for you guys to chime in first.


Edit: Just looked at my paperwork, and, no, they didn't do any other blood work.

Probably wouldn't hurt to get a urinalysis done, then, especially if he keeps peeing and having accidents, and chugging down a LOT of water.

You don't see a pink tinge or any blood in his urine, do you?

[amazincc]

Yeah, the whole raw debate at the vet... I'm SO over it. If his diet caused all those symptoms I'm pretty sure I would've noticed something a few weeks back.
I only mentioned the Primal because they - again - tried to sell me a bag of their kibble when I picked up his meds.

He doesn't have diarrhea, and the only thing he vomited right back up was the A/D that they recommended.

[amazincc]

Probably wouldn't hurt to get a urinalysis done, then, especially if he keeps peeing and having accidents, and chugging down a LOT of water.

You don't see a pink tinge or any blood in his urine, do you?

No blood or a pink tinge... but it smells.

I'm thinking of getting the whole damn dog dismantled and have someone put him back together the "right" way.

Thanks, Jen... I think I'll drag him back tomorrow for more testing before I start him on Pred then.

[Marinepits]

Hey, if they told you to start the meds, start the meds. I'm not a vet and don't know all of Seppel's history -- I'm just throwing semi-educated ideas out there. He *most likely* has MMM and needs the pred to get better. He *might possibly* have a UTI, and that's really quite fixable at any time.

[amazincc]

Hey, if they told you to start the meds, start the meds. I'm not a vet and don't know all of Seppel's history -- I'm just throwing semi-educated ideas out there. He *most likely* has MMM and needs the pred to get better. He *might possibly* have a UTI, and that's really quite fixable at any time.

Stop that...
The told me that before he peed and leaked all over the place. And, seriously, they think the stinky breath is caused by his food. I am not convinced.
Sepps history... well: He likes the ladies and enjoys long walks on the beach.

[Marinepits]

You're gonna make Dr Blabs smack me in the head.

[blabsforbullies]

I would seriously doubt a kidney problem, as he looks really good otherwise. By the time that the bad breath kicks in, the kidneys are usually pretty far advanced into failure, and you would have seen other signs (weight loss, decreased appetite, chronic lethargy, etc).

Having said that, I generally recommend doing a CBC/Full Chemistry Panel/UA before starting any type of immunosuppressive treatment. If there were underlying disease there (be it kidneys, liver, diabetes, urinary tract infection ,etc), steroids can make that worse (but since he is on AB's already, a UTI would be unlikely). If he is feeling better, and seems less painful, eating, drinking, etc, I'd say wait on the steroids if you can and have some further testing done. If he weren't better, I would have suggested starting them.

It is possible that he is drinking (hence urinating more) due to stress or they may have given him fluids while he was sedated? We do IV fluids on any animal that is heavily sedated or under anethesia. Just a thought.....