Endometrial damage

Food, Fitness and how to keep them healthy.

Postby SisMorphine » January 21st, 2009, 8:42 pm

I was discussing this with Dr. Blabs in PM and decided to take it to the board to see if anyone had any input or perhaps links regarding this.

An issue came up with a new club and their Breeder's COE as it states that dogs can have two back to back litters, then must rest for one. When confronted one of the board members posted this:
There are two types of female dogs those used ACTIVELY in a breeding program and those that are fixed. Due to the fact that every time a dog has a heat cycle damage is done to the lining of the uterus. Infection in the lining of the uterus is established as a result of hormonal changes. Following estrus ("heat"), progesterone levels remain elevated for 8-10 weeks and thicken the lining of the uterus in preparation for pregnancy. If pregnancy does not occur for a few estrus cycles, the lining continues to increase in thickness until cysts form within it. The thickened, cystic lining secretes fluids that create an ideal environment in which bacteria can grow. Additionally, high progesterone levels inhibit the ability of the muscles in the wall of the uterus to contract. The most common factor in missed litters is the condition of the uterus. Changes to the uterus occur because of low grade bacterial infection, and the progesterone stimulation that occurs in the 'false pregnancy' experienced by EVERY non pregnant bitch following her heat. Progesterone causes changes in the uterine lining and additionally lowers resistance to bacterial infections. A study was done by IAMS over the past several years with over 7000 females and 17,500 litters. It shows breeding every heat cycle (on average a female cycles every 6-10 months) is far healthier for the female dog and the puppies too.


Have at it!!! I'll check back in when I get home from work. I'm expecting links so I can debunk this. PBT DON'T FAIL ME NOW!!

lol
"All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another." -Anatole France
SisMorphine
They're like service dogs gone wrong.
 
Posts: 9233
Location: PR

Postby Jenn » January 21st, 2009, 9:19 pm

I used to think I was indecisive, but now I'm not so sure....
User avatar
Jenn
undecided
 
Posts: 11382
Location: TX

Postby Mickle » January 21st, 2009, 10:14 pm

Yes please...very interested!
Liisa
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken
User avatar
Mickle
Loyally Bully
 
Posts: 556
Location: Pepperell, MA

Postby Jenn » January 21st, 2009, 11:19 pm

Still searching for you, but I seem to be continually running into the same thing... Here is another link I just got through reading..
http://www.donabney.com/our_breeding_policy.php
A study provided by reproduction specialists has proven that a female may be bred in successive heats between the ages of two and five years. Breeding successive heats will provide a strengthening of the uterine muscles. Although this study demonstrates the positive effects of successive breedings, care should be taken to ensure the health and recovery of the female prior to consecutive breeding. Any consecutive breeding should be followed by one year of non-breeding. After each breeding our females undergo special attention to aid in regaining their strength and health. During this time the female is evaluated for the length of time required to recover, or any problems that may have arisen during the pregnancy and/or whelping period. A determination is made for future breeding. No dog will be bred that is not 100% healthy and in excellent mental and physical condition.


The main thing that stuck out most to me on everything I read was the emphasis placed on the female and her health. How often do you see a female that doesn't suffer in one way or another, from whelping a litter of puppies? I haven't googled reproduction specialist, just successive breedings, heats, etc.
I used to think I was indecisive, but now I'm not so sure....
User avatar
Jenn
undecided
 
Posts: 11382
Location: TX

Postby BullyLady » January 21st, 2009, 11:24 pm

Okay.... So I don't have any documentation to back this up, but let's think about it. It's HARD on the body to nourish other life. First the momma has to carry them in her belly, then she has to produce enough milk to support them once their born. Fat reserves are often severely depleted, even when supplements and additional calories are being given, it's just the way the body reacts to pregnancy and birth. Secondly, in humans at least, when the muscles don't have time to "bounce back" from pregnancy because the mother gets pregnant again immediately, prolapsed uteruses (uteri?) are VERY common. And third, let's be REAL honest here, if you are pumping out puppies what are the chances that truly excellent homes are being found for each and every puppy?
"I'm not all bad but I'm a faithful sinner."
~Dave Matthews
Cathleen
Shelby - AB Mix 1 yr - CGC
User avatar
BullyLady
Proud Uber Nerd
 
Posts: 1060
Location: E Washington State

Postby SisMorphine » January 21st, 2009, 11:48 pm

Thanks guys. I guess the angle I should take is that there is much more to breeding than just the uterus. Hopefully I'll have time tomorrow to look around online more. Busy busy busy tonight. It's like I can't have a few hours off. Ah well.
"All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another." -Anatole France
SisMorphine
They're like service dogs gone wrong.
 
Posts: 9233
Location: PR

Postby mnp13 » January 22nd, 2009, 12:45 am

I'd start with this:

Ask for the actual study information. I'd be willing to bet that it doesn't exist. If it's real, it will be published somewhere and will have been reviewed.

Just like the mythical choke chain / prong collar study from Germany that no one can actually find.
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17234
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby Malli » January 22nd, 2009, 4:23 am

From my perspective, that simply doesn't make sense :| But maybe I'm missing some important information?

No good breeder that I know(and I know at least 2 - one thats been doing it for over 20 years) impregnates her bitch at every heat cycle :|
I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day, tomorrow doesn't look good either.
_______________________________________
"You didn't know of the magical powers of the break stick? It's up there with genies and Harry Potter as far as magic levels go." SisMorphine 01/07/07
User avatar
Malli
E-I-E-I-O!
 
Posts: 6341
Location: CANADA EH?

Postby TinaMartin » January 22nd, 2009, 9:51 am

So all of the non bred female dogs out there that are not spayed are bacteria non resistant with thickened uteruses having false pregnancies every heat. Got to love their science. Which study papers were these results in cause I dont see them.
Not only am I a member of the Michelle says my dog is fat club I'm the president!
I can Alpha Roll hair!
User avatar
TinaMartin
The Hair Whisperer
 
Posts: 1240
Location: Rochester NY

Postby Leslie H » January 22nd, 2009, 8:25 pm

This doesn't sound off base to me. I went to a reproduction seminar, and the DVM who presented said there was no issue w/breeding back to back heats. Not breeding every heat, but doing back to back was no worse than breeding, skipping a heat, and breeding again.
Females all false to some degree w/every heat, and there are risks with this.

From my own experience, some females handle pregnancy, delivery and nursing w/no apparent mental or physical strain. Given good care and nutrition, they never get thin, produce a ton of milk, and stay level headed. Other dogs have a terrible time, both mentally and physically, and take a long time to recoup from a litter, despite receiving a good level of care and nutrition.
User avatar
Leslie H
Queen of Weight Pull
 
Posts: 372
Location: NW CT

Postby BritneyP » January 22nd, 2009, 10:46 pm

Leslie H wrote:This doesn't sound off base to me. I went to a reproduction seminar, and the DVM who presented said there was no issue w/breeding back to back heats. Not breeding every heat, but doing back to back was no worse than breeding, skipping a heat, and breeding again.
Females all false to some degree w/every heat, and there are risks with this.

From my own experience, some females handle pregnancy, delivery and nursing w/no apparent mental or physical strain. Given good care and nutrition, they never get thin, produce a ton of milk, and stay level headed. Other dogs have a terrible time, both mentally and physically, and take a long time to recoup from a litter, despite receiving a good level of care and nutrition.


What she said! :thumbsup:

I've actually heard from some very reputable breeders & reproductive specialists that, IN THEORY, it is healthiest and safest for breeding females to be bred back to back for 3-4 heats starting at age 2-2.5, then spayed and retired at 3-4 years of age. Again, this is just a theory, but to be completely honest, I think it makes a lot of sense. Damage is done to the uterus and the body each and every time the female goes through a heat cycle and either isn't bred or isn't spayed. This theory would also allow the female to retire from breeding at a young age and still be able to live a "normal dog" life. :|
Cruiser v Kellhof, CGC, TDInc- GSD
Jack z Esagilu, Police K9- GSD
Pia z Westwood- GSD
Darca z Perstatskeho mlyna- GSD
Sadie v Foster- GSD
Nala, CGC- GSD
User avatar
BritneyP
Hyper Adolescent Bully
 
Posts: 330
Location: Lakes Region NH

Postby pitbullmamaliz » January 23rd, 2009, 8:57 am

Alright, here's my ignorant question - I know female dogs don't have "periods," but isn't the blood that they leak the sloughing of the uterine walls just like in a human female? And if so, how is us having our monthly cycle any less "dangerous" than them having a heat?

I hope that made sense. And yes, I really am ignorant of heats - I had Inara spayed before her first one so I never had to deal with it.
"Remember - every time your dog gets somewhere on a tight leash *a fairy dies and it's all your fault.* Think of the fairies." http://www.positivepetzine.com"

http://www.pitbullzen.com
http://inaradog.wordpress.com
User avatar
pitbullmamaliz
Working out in the buff causes chafing
 
Posts: 15437
Location: Cleveland, OH

Postby BullyLady » January 23rd, 2009, 11:54 am

pitbullmamaliz wrote:Alright, here's my ignorant question - I know female dogs don't have "periods," but isn't the blood that they leak the sloughing of the uterine walls just like in a human female? And if so, how is us having our monthly cycle any less "dangerous" than them having a heat?

I hope that made sense. And yes, I really am ignorant of heats - I had Inara spayed before her first one so I never had to deal with it.


That is actually almost exactly the same question I have.
"I'm not all bad but I'm a faithful sinner."
~Dave Matthews
Cathleen
Shelby - AB Mix 1 yr - CGC
User avatar
BullyLady
Proud Uber Nerd
 
Posts: 1060
Location: E Washington State

Postby Malli » January 23rd, 2009, 5:41 pm

yeah. I was thinking along those lines, too.
I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day, tomorrow doesn't look good either.
_______________________________________
"You didn't know of the magical powers of the break stick? It's up there with genies and Harry Potter as far as magic levels go." SisMorphine 01/07/07
User avatar
Malli
E-I-E-I-O!
 
Posts: 6341
Location: CANADA EH?

Postby DemoDick » January 23rd, 2009, 5:52 pm

BritneyP wrote:
Leslie H wrote:This doesn't sound off base to me. I went to a reproduction seminar, and the DVM who presented said there was no issue w/breeding back to back heats. Not breeding every heat, but doing back to back was no worse than breeding, skipping a heat, and breeding again.
Females all false to some degree w/every heat, and there are risks with this.

From my own experience, some females handle pregnancy, delivery and nursing w/no apparent mental or physical strain. Given good care and nutrition, they never get thin, produce a ton of milk, and stay level headed. Other dogs have a terrible time, both mentally and physically, and take a long time to recoup from a litter, despite receiving a good level of care and nutrition.


What she said! :thumbsup:

I've actually heard from some very reputable breeders & reproductive specialists that, IN THEORY, it is healthiest and safest for breeding females to be bred back to back for 3-4 heats starting at age 2-2.5, then spayed and retired at 3-4 years of age. Again, this is just a theory, but to be completely honest, I think it makes a lot of sense. Damage is done to the uterus and the body each and every time the female goes through a heat cycle and either isn't bred or isn't spayed. This theory would also allow the female to retire from breeding at a young age and still be able to live a "normal dog" life. :|


From a biological standpoint, that makes perfect sense.

Demo Dick
"My first priority will be to reinstate the assault weapons ban PERMANENTLY as soon as I take office...I intend to work with Congress on a national no carry law, 1 gun a month purchase limits, and bans on all semi-automatic guns."-Barack Obama
"When in doubt, whip it out."-Nuge
User avatar
DemoDick
They Like to Fondle My Gun
 
Posts: 1910
Location: New York

Postby blabsforbullies » January 25th, 2009, 7:15 pm

pitbullmamaliz wrote:Alright, here's my ignorant question - I know female dogs don't have "periods," but isn't the blood that they leak the sloughing of the uterine walls just like in a human female? And if so, how is us having our monthly cycle any less "dangerous" than them having a heat?

I hope that made sense. And yes, I really am ignorant of heats - I had Inara spayed before her first one so I never had to deal with it.



OK... I cannot really answer this question intelligently, as I am not a breeding expert, nor do I know enough about human physiology. :| BUT.... I posted the question to my vet friends on VIN... maybe they can shed some light. :wink: I'll let you know. :dance:
We have a Mastiff... does that count??? :)
http://www.teamblabador.com

Akisa & Team Blabador
User avatar
blabsforbullies
Giver of the Wubba
 
Posts: 501
Location: Connecticut

Postby BritneyP » January 25th, 2009, 11:55 pm

Looking forward to the response! :mrgreen:
Cruiser v Kellhof, CGC, TDInc- GSD
Jack z Esagilu, Police K9- GSD
Pia z Westwood- GSD
Darca z Perstatskeho mlyna- GSD
Sadie v Foster- GSD
Nala, CGC- GSD
User avatar
BritneyP
Hyper Adolescent Bully
 
Posts: 330
Location: Lakes Region NH

Postby katiek0417 » January 26th, 2009, 2:48 pm

As I was told by my vet, the following stages occur in a heat cycle:

Anestrus
Proestrus
Estrus
Diestrus

The Anestrus period is before the female actually shows signs of a heat cycle. She isn't "bleeding" yet, although an experienced male may be able to tell she's coming into heat.

The Proestrus cycle is usually the first 7-9 days that people refer to when the bitch is bleeding (although some dogs don't bleed that much or at all). During this time, the estrogen concentration in blood cells becomes so highly concentrated that it can lead to capillary breakage in the lining of the uterus. This is what causes the bleeding that you're referring to as a "period."

So, it's not a period in the same sense as we, as humans, experience them. Dogs aren't completely shedding their uterine lining, just a little bit...the bleeding is actually occurring (if it occurs at all) because the cells are so concentrated with estrogen.

Estrus is the stage where a female will accept a male - usually the discharge will become light pink or clear.

Diestrus is the stage that occurs after estrus...again, bleeding may or may not occur here.
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

Katrina
Sacha CGC - Dumb Lab
Nisha CGC, PDC, PSA TC, PSA 1 - Crazy Malinois
Drusilla SLUT- Pet
Nemo - Dual-Purpose Narcotics
Cy TC, PSA 1, PSA 2, 2009 PSA Level 3 National Champion
Axo - Psycho Puppy
Rocky - RIP My Baby Boy
User avatar
katiek0417
pointy ear hoarder
 
Posts: 6280
Location: Glen Burnie, MD

Postby blabsforbullies » January 26th, 2009, 9:39 pm

This is what I got today from one of the specialists... 8)

"Humans do not have elevated progestrone after ovulation UNLESS they are pregnant. Dogs do--and that is what induces the changes in the endometrium." :wave2:
We have a Mastiff... does that count??? :)
http://www.teamblabador.com

Akisa & Team Blabador
User avatar
blabsforbullies
Giver of the Wubba
 
Posts: 501
Location: Connecticut

Postby Marinepits » January 26th, 2009, 9:44 pm

Thanks, Doc. :wink:
Never make someone a priority in your life when that someone treats you like an option.
User avatar
Marinepits
Proud Infidel
 
Posts: 15621
Location: New England

Next

Return to Nutrition & Health

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

cron