New Puppies

[katiek0417]

This will be my FIRST, LAST, and ONLY post regarding this topic.

First, let me address the “witch hunt” idea. Do I believe I was being baited in so that I could be bashed? Yes. I do (maybe not by all of you, but by some). As history has shown, people on this board have bashed me for allowing a breeding to take place under my roof between two dogs that belonged to another individual, who is an adult (although he may act like a 3 year old at times). I defended my position as someone who expressed an opinion, but would never give an ultimatum (I do not believe in them, and I especially do not believe in giving them to your partners), but was now in the position where I had to do best by the puppies. However, my answers were never enough. That was fine. It was, sadly, the few people that came to my defense that kept me coming back to this board.

That being said, it brings me to my second point. I do not know Karen from a hole in the wall. I do not know her from other boards, and she has only had 423 posts on this board. I know the people who have had thousands of posts (and even those in the high hundreds); however, I don’t know Karen. I did not know that she was one to ostracize people for breeding and buying puppies. As Michelle so eloquently stated, if I had known that, I wouldn’t have touched this thread with a 10-foot pole! Not knowing that, however, I wanted to extend to her the same thing that those people, who defended me and kept me coming back to this board, extended to me. What can I say? I believe in paying it forward. I believe that this forum has a wealth of information that can be shared, but when someone posts, then is ostracized for what they posted, they don’t want to come back. I’ve seen it on other boards; I’ve seen it on this board, and I like to believe that this board has standards that are so much better than that. So, I posted in response to Karen (again, not knowing who she was) that I was not going to judge her based on the occurrence of an accidental breeding. I, admittedly, do not know much about day blindness (or the genetic basis of it), so could, therefore, only speak on the breeding aspect of it.

That brings me to my third point. Yes, I may have an accidental breeding on my hands. I say “may” because I will not be able to confirm it until Day 21 (I could do a progesterone test now, but it may not be accurate because she could be going through a false pregnancy). None of the dogs in my house are fixed; however, if any of them were deemed to be un-breedworthy, they would be fixed. I keep careful track of every bitch’s heat cycle including the length of time she bleeds at the beginning; when her vulva swells, when she stops bleeding, when she starts again, what day she starts flagging (you can tell by petting a bitch on her back), what day she stops flagging, and what day she stops bleeding (when her heat cycle ends). I also keep track of the days she’s been bred before (if she’s been bred before). This particular female has a 21-day cycle; she stops bleeding on Day 6, her vulva swells on Day 6, as well; flags on Days 7-13, then stops bleeding on Day 21. She was previously bred on Days 7, 8, and 9.

We are very careful when our females are in heat to not let any males have access to them (unless we plan on breeding), and even wait a few days after the day we expect their heat cycle to end just to be sure. This particular incident occurred on the 27th day after the bitch started her heat cycle – she was no longer bleeding or flagging (in fact, he put the same two dogs out the day before and nothing happened). Greg put them out, and within 10 minutes he heard screaming. Thinking there was a fight, he ran out, and instead found the 2 dogs tied.

Therefore, there is a chance that the bitch might be pregnant. She may not be, but I have to prepare as if she was. This female is a proven producer, so I made a choice to not abort the puppies. Because I plan on breeding her in the future, aborting the puppies could put her at risk in the future. I did not want to take that chance. Her last litter was so popular that I had to turn people away; all were sold by the time they were 8 weeks old. I was holding one back to raise myself because her ear was floppy (and if I raised her, I could have Jerry take her and sell her to a department where looks aren’t as important), but I ended up giving her to a friend of a friend.

This bitch does work. She has OFA’d good on hips and normal on elbows, and she has tested negative for brucellosis. She comes from very good lines (KNPV lines). She has high drive and good nerves. I don’t work her, however, as much as I should (as I have other dogs to work); although that will be changing as we have a club member who wants to start working her (she would still be mine). She went through a period where she was choosey about who she liked, but now she’s social with everyone (except when she has puppies – then she likes me and Greg only). The bitch that I’m speaking of is Drusilla. This brings me to the first negative: if she is pregnant now, it will be a back-to-back breeding, which I would NEVER do intentionally.

The male is my new dog, Nemo. Nemo is a 1.5 year old imported male malinois with extreme drive and incredibly good nerve, and an incredible pedigree. This is the 2nd negative: I don’t like to breed before the age of 2. While he has not been OFA’d, if this breeding took, I plan on obtaining notarized letters from 2 different vets attesting to how good his hips and elbows look (in fact, in the words of one vet who saw his hip x-rays, “I’ve never seen better hips on a dog that age in that position”). Unfortunately, I still do not have clearance to drive; if I did, I’d take him and have a PennHip done. While Nemo is not yet titled, he was being sold as a dual purpose dog by Tarheel Canine. He is fully finished on drug detection (just waiting for me to get better so that we can certify as a team), and he is training for PSA (and people who have seen him work think he has a very good shot at competing successfully in the Level 3’s – a level that few dogs even make it to).

Nemo was not only purchased to be by next PSA dog or a dog with which I could do contractual detection work; he was also purchased to be the future of the Metropolitan K9 breeding program. Jue and Cy (our current top studs) will be getting too old to breed. Nemo is the future (I’ve already had other people ask me if I’d be willing to breed him to outside females – simply based on reputation). He is an extreme dog, and his pedigree compliments the pedigrees of the females we own, or co-own with others. In fact, a breeding between Drusilla and Nemo was one that would’ve taken place in the future, regardless.

Next (not sure what number point I’m on), whether you think my breeding practices are ethical or not, the fact remains that my puppies are selling. A majority of my puppies go to sport homes, although there are a few that go to police. I health test my dogs; I try to match the owner with the puppy (never putting a high drive pup in a first-time owner’s home); I offer both health and work guarantees; I offer a $100 rebate for hip testing and result copies; I offer to take back a puppy AT ANY TIME in the dog’s life. If there is a dog that is not as high drive, I speuter the dog, and place it in a home, with the offer of free training for the lifetime of the dog.

Next, Diana, I specifically want to address your concerns. I am very happy that some of the dogs you have encountered have been placed in PP/working homes. A majority of them can’t. I know this b/c I’ve tried to test shelter/rescue dogs for detection training, and out of 20 dogs, you MAY get 1 that is suitable. There are even fewer that can do PP/sport/apprehension training. The dogs that CAN do this work, rescues/shelters don’t want to deal with them to begin with because they are too high drive to place in just anyone’s home. And, the fact remains, as Michelle pointed out; sport people want these “mystical” papers. Some don’t care; some do. I can tell you that to compete at the National or International level in FR or MR, you must have a papered dog. Even in Schutzhund, if your dog is not AKC or FCI registered, it is put down as a “mix.” They don’t even recognize UKC. PSA grows more and more each year; and they do not discriminate against non-papered dogs, but the fact remains that the competitors looking for puppies still want the best of the best; and when a dog comes from a breeder, you can see what the parents are like (regardless of whether there are papers or not), and if the parents are titled, etc, which could tip the scales in your favor of getting a strong dog.

Believe this to be true, or not, but I am immersed in the sport world most days of the week, and I know what people want. It’s a ruthless world. In PP/K9/detection dogs, there’s no competition. In sport work, it’s you against everyone else. You constantly want the better dog with the better training so that you can play longer and win more. But, at the end of the day, it doesn’t matter if you’re the best trainer in the world; if you don’t have a strong dog, you already have the odds going against you.

Lastly, I want to thank those of you who came to my defense: Leslie, Alyssa, and especially Britney (and others of you). I very much appreciate your sticking up for me.

In closing, I am sorry that I created a raucous with my post. I really was trying to just do the same for Karen as others did for me. I saw it get out of hand, and I had flashbacks of how some members treated me when Asja had puppies. I simply didn’t want to go there again. So, rather than post, I chose to stay away from the board. This was completely voluntary; and I made a choice. I was not running away, tail tucked; however, the incidents in June (and the hurtful things that occurred both publicly and via PM) had me calling one of the admins in tears because it was so hurtful. If it were you in my shoes, and knowing that it could very well happen again, would you knowingly put yourself through that again? I’m pretty thick-skinned; I take things in stride; but when people badger you and badger you, and nothing you say is good enough, and it comes off as a personal attack over and over, it does wear on you (I know this because I’ve seen patients who have had this occur to them).

Once more, this is all I’m saying on this topic.

[airwalk]

This is also my last post on this thread..but I wanted to clarify I didn't say anything that Katrina doesn't already know and we've talked about in the past.

I understand the desire and "need" to breed high quality dogs for particular purposes and the betterment of the breed. I may not like it, but I understand it.

I still do not believe in accidental litters - accidental breedings yes - accidental litters no.

So you needn't defend Katrina to me - she and I have talked about this before and we are fully aware of each others opinions and positions and that doesn't affect our ability to talk to each other like adults.

[LMM]

They bleed for 21 days?!


Sorry, I read that and couldn't read further

[TheRedQueen]

Thanks for the clarification...

And yeah, I understand how these things happen. I'm so not a breeder, but I am friends with plenty of breeders...it's a whole different world than I'm in. So while I can never be 100% behind a breeding...any breeding...I do strive to understand. Just as folks that like papered purebreds can't understand my only wanting rescue dogs.

[cheekymunkee]

I just want to thank you Katrina for posting & clearing things up. Now maybe we can all move on. And please everyone remember, if you dont want something discussed PLEASE think twice before you hit 'reply' because we as a staff cannot & will not protect you from being questioned.

[cheekymunkee]

I had more than one inquiry about Katrina's post.

Why would people go to you about someone else's business? That baffles me, as I'm pretty certain SHE received no PMs in regards to it.

"This is what happened, these dogs, and we decided to keep the litter because..." ends somewhat rampent speculation on what's going on.

And then starts the execution? Pretty sure I remember a similar situation last year inregards to the Jue/Asja litter, where she WAS willing to post about it and defend herself, and she was nearly crucified. Sorry, I'm just not sold. Must be the skeptic in me...

I just wanted to address this. YES it does happen. I get pms & emails ALL of the time with questions about posts that have been made. "What is so & so talking about, why did they say this, what is going on", believe it or not I get them all of the time. We all do.

[KJS]

She does get themI can confirm that..because I send them ...I never know what the heck is going on in the 'in' crowd so I have to ask

[cheekymunkee]

Don't worry, I always make stuff up when K asks me.

[BritneyP]

Don't worry, I always make stuff up when K asks me.

Good plan, Deb.

[TheRedQueen]

Don't worry, I always make stuff up when K asks me.

[pitbullmamaliz]

Don't worry, I always make stuff up when K asks me.

Thank god! I thought I was the only one lying to her!

[BullyLady]

Katrina, I just wanted to say thank you for coming to this thread and clearing it up. After hearing your explanation it doesn't sound like you did anything wrong. I don't think you were being irresponsible, you obviously put alot of work into your dogs. It sounds to me like you had thought she was out of danger and proceeded accordingly, but as we all know sometimes nature has other plans. Whether or not a litter does come out of this you did your best and acted as a responsible owner, and if a litter does come out of it I think you will have ready and responsible homes.

On the flip side, you were the one who let this turn into a big deal. Had you explained yourself in the first place people wouldn't have gotten all up in arms, in fact I would bet that most people have been totally mollified by your explanation. You aren't new to this forum, you know how people act and react, if you didn't want it discussed you shouldn't have mentioned it. If you chose to mentioned it you should have explained yourself immediately, and since you didn't you should have known what was coming.

[Marinepits]

I just wanted to address this. YES it does happen. I get pms & emails ALL of the time with questions about posts that have been made. "What is so & so talking about, why did they say this, what is going on", believe it or not I get them all of the time. We all do.

Yes, we all do.

Katrina, I just wanted to say thank you for coming to this thread and clearing it up.....

On the flip side, you were the one who let this turn into a big deal. Had you explained yourself in the first place people wouldn't have gotten all up in arms, in fact I would bet that most people have been totally mollified by your explanation. You aren't new to this forum, you know how people act and react, if you didn't want it discussed you shouldn't have mentioned it. If you chose to mentioned it you should have explained yourself immediately, and since you didn't you should have known what was coming.

And thank you, Cathleen, for saying that so well.

[KJS]

Don't worry, I always make stuff up when K asks me.

Thank god! I thought I was the only one lying to her!

Dang it!...and I thought you only took so long to reply because you was giving me all the best info...not because you was gettin' your stories straight

[fenella]

Wow. I'm surprised this thread is still going. I wasn't going to post, but I'll put in my
It doesn't appear that Karen (whom I do not know) is going to re-post on here. I will just add to the plea to at least speuter the puppies! Accidents can happen, I suppose. It seems at least Katrina has the right testing, etc.
I am hoping for the best for all involved. If the litter is going to happen, and it sounds like it is, hopefully the puppies will be healthy, then speutered by their owners.

[BIGDOG2594]

Wow, you guys are really a bunch of tards. I guess nothing will ever change. Karen, don't even bother. You were open and honest and people will always find a way to attack. Whether they twist statements or flat out lie, they are all bull$hit. Everyone has an opinion but use your best judgment. Do what is best for you, your family and the dogs. Good luck with everything.

[airwalk]

Wow..a newbie with major attitude

[mnp13]

Wow, you guys are really a bunch of tards.

wow, what a mature comment.

I guess nothing will ever change. Karen, don't even bother. You were open and honest and people will always find a way to attack

Attack people about breeding? Most of us have learned from the true master of coming after people for breeding. That would be Karen.

Whether they twist statements or flat out lie, they are all bull$hit

You'll have to help me out with what's "twisted" here.

[TheRedQueen]

Wow, you guys are really a bunch of tards. I guess nothing will ever change. Karen, don't even bother. You were open and honest and people will always find a way to attack. Whether they twist statements or flat out lie, they are all bull$hit. Everyone has an opinion but use your best judgment. Do what is best for you, your family and the dogs. Good luck with everything.

Well helloooo to you too.

It's lovely to have new mature, members of the forum.

[BIGDOG2594]

some of you know me, some don't. It is all this pathetic bull$hit that ruins it for the good people in the breed. Boy am I glad I walked away.