Breed a litter and then kill half the pups???

This is where to talk about Pit Bulls!

Postby Big_Ant » February 2nd, 2006, 2:53 pm

mnp13 wrote:We're glad you like it here! Now go invite your friends! :D


I would, but that list is pretty short, lol.

One of the things that I found funny about the original thread was that lady Garm's Girl. She jumps in on everything Pit Bull like she knows her Sh**, but always goes back to Border Collies.

I met up with her in person for a dog walk once. She claimed to have a pit bull, but when I met her it was a very small 'brainy look' type of Staffy Bull. Extremely bad knees, and just in general looked like it wasn't feeling well.

When she got out of the car, Weda did her excited hops trying to get over to them to meet them, and the lady freakin' stops and says "Is she friendly? She doesn't look too friendly"

Weda was in full wag, and this lady has the nerve to ask that.

She wouldn't let the dogs interact. They got to sniff once, and that was it. On the walk she kept her dog away from Weda.

She can talk all she wants about Border Collies (the irritating little rats that they are), but she doesn't know squat about Pit Bulls.

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Postby SisMorphine » February 2nd, 2006, 2:54 pm

Jesseca wrote:I understand culling, I just like to be ignorant when it happens. It makes me feel better. :)


LOL! Ignorance really is bliss in some cases. I fully understand that.
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Postby Karen » February 2nd, 2006, 2:56 pm

[quote="Big_Ant]Completely OFF-TOPIC, but has anyone seen the female from Midnight Sun named 'Trouble'. Oh my god I would love a dog out of that girl.

AMazing. Capital A and Capital M.

She's heading for GR CH right now I believe, I'd love to see what she's like outside of the ring. Sport or anything. I'd love a dog with structure like that to do some Schutzhund with, and possibly some agility.

- Anthony[/quote]

She bought that female. She's out of Bug's Aunt Kity and is actually from PbarK kennels in Texas. Kim Hyusman bred her and a couple others Elissa owns.
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Postby Big_Ant » February 2nd, 2006, 2:57 pm

One other thing of note is that MidnightSunAPBT didn't post the pictures and then say, "I'm culling what I don't want"

Someone else kept trying to drag it out of her. She did make attempts not to go into detail, but the person was persistent.

I think the problem everyone is having is that the pups were shown, everyone had that warm fuzzy feeling, and then they find out that some of them will be PTS.

Whether everyone will admit it or not, culling is a necessity to any breed's good for the future. Most just prefer to be in the dark about it, and over on that other board, everyone is still in ATTACK MODE after the Diane incident, and are trying to find ways of ripping anyone and everyone apart.

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Postby Karen » February 2nd, 2006, 3:02 pm

Big_Ant wrote:One other thing of note is that MidnightSunAPBT didn't post the pictures and then say, "I'm culling what I don't want"

Someone else kept trying to drag it out of her. She did make attempts not to go into detail, but the person was persistent.

I think the problem everyone is having is that the pups were shown, everyone had that warm fuzzy feeling, and then they find out that some of them will be PTS.

Whether everyone will admit it or not, culling is a necessity to any breed's good for the future. Most just prefer to be in the dark about it, and over on that other board, everyone is still in ATTACK MODE after the Diane incident, and are trying to find ways of ripping anyone and everyone apart.

- Anthony


Nope. Elissa is an irresponsible fruitcake period. Her placement skills are sorely lacking and in one case she made a puppy buyer get rid of a dog she already had to get the new puppy. She has produced more dogs since 2000 than Ruth has in over 20 years. She way beats Lora's amounts. But hey that's ok, right? It's only one measly litter a year....
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Postby Big_Ant » February 2nd, 2006, 3:07 pm

Karen wrote:
Big_Ant wrote:One other thing of note is that MidnightSunAPBT didn't post the pictures and then say, "I'm culling what I don't want"

Someone else kept trying to drag it out of her. She did make attempts not to go into detail, but the person was persistent.

I think the problem everyone is having is that the pups were shown, everyone had that warm fuzzy feeling, and then they find out that some of them will be PTS.

Whether everyone will admit it or not, culling is a necessity to any breed's good for the future. Most just prefer to be in the dark about it, and over on that other board, everyone is still in ATTACK MODE after the Diane incident, and are trying to find ways of ripping anyone and everyone apart.

- Anthony


Nope. Elissa is an irresponsible fruitcake period. Her placement skills are sorely lacking and in one case she made a puppy buyer get rid of a dog she already had to get the new puppy. She has produced more dogs since 2000 than Ruth has in over 20 years. She way beats Lora's amounts. But hey that's ok, right? It's only one measly litter a year....
:puke:


I don't know all of the specifics of her as a breeder, I was more referring to the specifics of the culling topic.

I honestly cannot comment on her breeding as I know nothing of it.

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Postby babyreba » February 2nd, 2006, 3:39 pm

Just out of curiosity . . . say I found a litter at the shelter that had, say, 3 flashy, fun puppies that had good temperaments and were excellent examples of the breed, and 4 puppies that had fine temperaments but just so-so in coloration and perhaps had rather unattractive or imperfect physical breed traits.

Is it OK if I take the litter and adopt out the prettiest ones and "cull" the 3 that are likely to take forever to be adopted and may not represent as fine-looking examples of the breed?

I do realize that breeding is a different world than rescuing, and with different goals and ethics, but I think ultimately we all face the same problem: What to do with pups that are harder to place than others.
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Postby mnp13 » February 2nd, 2006, 3:51 pm

I think the OP was baited and drawn into going into the litter details, and it seemed obvious that the instagator was going to post about the culling if she didn't.

Culling is killing, calling it "humane euthanasia" is a load of crap, at the end puppies are killed.

um... there are plenty of inhumane ways to kill unwanted animals. Yes, in the end they are still dead; but which would you like? tie them in a pillowcase with a rock and throw them in a pond or an injection and they just fall asleep?

Yup, while we discuss about the so admirable breeders who cull pet quality pups many solid dogs got a needle stuck in their legs

Exactly. And those people who do desparately need a 'pet quality' dog from a breeder should look beyond their own ignorance and adopt one of those solid dogs.

Elissa is an irresponsible fruitcake period.

I don't know the breeder, and hadn't heard of her before the thread on PBF so I don't know if this is true or not. Karen, you are welcome to your opinions, and you are more than welcome to express them. However, please knock off the name calling.

Completely OFF-TOPIC, but has anyone seen the female from Midnight Sun named 'Trouble'. Oh my god I would love a dog out of that girl.

That's great, so start a new thread about it. :neener:
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Postby Big_Ant » February 2nd, 2006, 3:56 pm

mnp13 wrote:
Completely OFF-TOPIC, but has anyone seen the female from Midnight Sun named 'Trouble'. Oh my god I would love a dog out of that girl.

That's great, so start a new thread about it. :neener:


Where's the Smart-Ass Emoticon? :twisted:

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Postby mnp13 » February 2nd, 2006, 3:59 pm

babyreba wrote:Is it OK if I take the litter and adopt out the prettiest ones and "cull" the 3 that are likely to take forever to be adopted and may not represent as fine-looking examples of the breed?


Well.... yes. The decision has to be made somehow doesn't it?

Here's a senario for you:
You have room for 20 dogs and only 20 dogs. No way around it. 30 healthy, decent dogs come in. You have to decide on 10 to kill by the end of the day. All 30 are good dogs, friendly, etc etc. But you have to make the decision. (for the sake of this discussion, you have no other way to get rid of the dogs but to put them down.)

Out of those 30 dogs, some of them are ultra flashy dogs that will most likely get adopted quickly. Some are great dogs, but have appearence 'issues' that will make them difficult to adopt out.

What do you do? Keep the difficult ones, pretty much guarenteeing them weeks or months or longer in a kennel run? Or do you put down the ones that don't have a realistic chance of getting out of the shelter in the near future so that the more adoptable animals have a shot at a home life?
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Postby Maryellen » February 2nd, 2006, 4:10 pm

yep erin, its sad but true.. take black/dark dogs for example, they hardly get adopted out.. no one likes the blacks/dark dogs... you have a littler of flashy pups, and 2 black ones at the shelter.. unfortunately, the black ones will be hard to adopt out, but the flashy ones will go in a heartbeat... while i understand the concept, what i dont like is that she posted the pics of the pups knowing full well that everyone knows everyone on forums, and that someone would probably call her out on it... yes, it is to better the breed, i understand that.. however, i also understand that there are alot of sound dogs in shelters too.. its easier to cull for temperment/defects then for color only for show quality.. but it is done...also, i know a few rescues that will take only flashy dogs, and dogs that they know will be adopted out right away.... is it right? no.. do some people do it? yes...
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Postby babyreba » February 2nd, 2006, 5:42 pm

Well I guess what I was getting at is that, if I take responsibility for a life, by either breeding puppies or by taking them on from an animal shelter, is it right for me to discard those lives when they are no longer convenient?

I know and understand the reality of overpopulation and the fact that some dogs are more adoptable than others based simply on looks. I was basically waiting to see whether people thought it would be OK for me to say, 'yep, i'll take that litter off your hands, Mr. AC' then dispose of the ones I didn't want by euthanizing.

I personally think that'd be wrong. And I'd sort of equate that with bringing a bunch of dogs into the world intentionally, then doing away with the ones you just don't want.

Yes, people have done this for centuries, sure it helped make the breed what it is today. But we don't live in the same world we did 50 years ago--hell, 50 years ago, it was pretty damn normal to chain your dog in the backyard and feed it nothing but whatever you could afford to give it from your dinner table. Now, we think that's barbaric.
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Postby mnp13 » February 2nd, 2006, 6:04 pm

babyreba wrote:Well I guess what I was getting at is that, if I take responsibility for a life, by either breeding puppies or by taking them on from an animal shelter, is it right for me to discard those lives when they are no longer convenient?


I don't think this is a matter of 'convienience'.

In the case of the shelter, if the dogs are gonig to be kenneled long term or put to sleep, yes, I think they should be put to sleep. Life in a cage is not a life.

In the case of a breeder, if they don't want to sell pet puppies what should they do with them? Put them in a kennel for their whole life? Life in a cage is not a life.

To me it is a matter of reality - harsh reality. No, not every breeder 'has' to cull, but I think judgeing one breeder for doing it is not right either.
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Postby pLaurent » February 2nd, 2006, 6:08 pm

Well I guess what I was getting at is that, if I take responsibility for a life, by either breeding puppies or by taking them on from an animal shelter, is it right for me to discard those lives when they are no longer convenient?


Rescuing a dumped litter and doing your best to find them loving homes is one thing. Deliberately bringing a litter into the world, knowing you'll be killing some of them if they don't meet your criteria is quite another.

If you are not prepared to take responsibility for the lives you create - forever - and making sure they have the best lives possible, then don't create them.

Save the best and kill the rest? Ugh...
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Postby Sariss » February 2nd, 2006, 6:37 pm

I don't really like how they put the picture in their avatar... especially since not all of them will be alive in a bit...
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Postby Violet » February 2nd, 2006, 6:45 pm

I used to work for a breeder who bred Afghan Hounds. She culled most litters down to just a few. On rare occasions she would give away a pet quality pup to be spayed/neutered. I never liked it. But sadly I understood it and still do. By euthinizing the puppies they ARE taking responsibility for them. Just not in an acceptable way by many peoples standards. Could I do it? hell no..Which is why I own my own person stock of unadoptable rejects. :D
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Postby Red » February 2nd, 2006, 6:48 pm

I urge everyone to think about this from a rational, logical perspective.


That is easy to do from sitting behind a keyboard.There are emotions involved in rescue and they show up when hearing of another litter.Personally I have no desire putting aside these kind of emotions, at least some of them.If I do it then I would be one of those who knows very well what is happening to the breed and couldn't care less.And they own pit bulls, go figure.
If we did not have thousands of pit bulls killed every year then I would maybe support ethic breeding.Till the situation doesn't change I don't see it possible.There is much more to do for the breed than breeding more.

Most just prefer to be in the dark about it, and over on that other board, everyone is still in ATTACK MODE after the Diane incident, and are trying to find ways of ripping anyone and everyone apart.


People post pretty much the same, that has nothing to do with it.
Again, people happen to not like the idea of more pit bulls out there , like it or not.
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Postby Patch O' Pits » February 2nd, 2006, 6:50 pm

gf turtle wrote:
I did not know that! Yes, I asked about it as it seemed awfully young to be able to tell the conformation and structure.

But the thing that really gets me is that these are puppies from health tested and titled parents.

And there are quite a few people who would not adopt a shelter or rescue dog because they want to know about the parents and they want health testing and titles. So these "pet" quality pups could easily be sold with a spay/neuter contract.

Those people who want a papered pet would not get a rescue dog in any case so it is not taking homes away from the rescue dogs.

It's just wrong to bring puppies into the world and then kill them as babies just because you want more show dogs.

Those puppies are living things and deserve to live.

If they had bad temperaments or major health problems, that's one thing but to just kill them because they are not "pretty" enough is sick!
.


I agree with you ...

There is a great video out called Puppy Puzzle on evaluating pups for correct structure and temperamnet
http://www.dogfolk.com/puppypuzzlevideo.htm
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Postby babyreba » February 2nd, 2006, 7:53 pm

mnp13 wrote:
babyreba wrote:Well I guess what I was getting at is that, if I take responsibility for a life, by either breeding puppies or by taking them on from an animal shelter, is it right for me to discard those lives when they are no longer convenient?


I don't think this is a matter of 'convienience'.

In the case of the shelter, if the dogs are gonig to be kenneled long term or put to sleep, yes, I think they should be put to sleep. Life in a cage is not a life.


I think this will be my last post on this topic because I think after this I'll just be saying stuff that other people have already said.

But I wanted to point out that I wasn't talking about "life in a cage." What I'm saying is, is it right for me to actively go to a shelter, take animals into my foster program and after figuring out which I liked best, put the rest to sleep? I personally don't think it is. But I equate that to the rescue version of what breeder culling is about. Like POP said, if you can't provide for a life you bring into the world, you shouldn't bring it into the world. Likewise, I do think if this were a different circumstance and a rescue org. posted a litter of pups they picked up and told everyone that they were only going to adopt out the cute ones and PTS the rest, the entire board would be in uproard. Not that this topic didn't create uproar where it was posted, but still . . . I'm not naive, but I am a bit surprised how accepting people are of this practice.

And like Red said, at this point a breeder concerned about overpopulation ought to not breed or breed so selectively that they are prepared to place responsibly all the lives they bring into the world. Not just the pretty ones that'll earn ribbons and weight-pull trophies or whatever.

And now that I know how prevalent culling is, I have one more reason to feel more strongly about personally not buying from a breeder . . . and I'm not, at this point, judging Midnight Sun for her actions only. Next time I have any reason to ask a breeder what their practices are, I'll know to ask about culling and consider that when deciding whether to recommend them to other people. So basically, I'm judging all breeders who, in this modern day and age, cull based on looks and conformation.

But whatev, there are dogs and pups dying everywhere and there always will be in my lifetime. I know I'm not in any place to stop 99.999999999 percent of it, no matter what I do.
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Postby mnp13 » February 2nd, 2006, 8:01 pm

Red wrote:
I urge everyone to think about this from a rational, logical perspective.


That is easy to do from sitting behind a keyboard.There are emotions involved in rescue and they show up when hearing of another litter.


No, it isn't. Not from behind a keyboard, and not in real life. Please don't imply that people who understand a breeder's or rescuer's decision to put down unwanted puppies are unfeeling or uncaring. and yes, they are unwanted for whatever reason. Unwanted by the breeder or by an adoptive family.There are emotions involved in owning any animal.

Red wrote:Personally I have no desire putting aside these kind of emotions, at least some of them.If I do it then I would be one of those who knows very well what is happening to the breed and couldn't care less.And they own pit bulls, go figure.


Well, some people (like myself) choose to put those emotions aside to make the decision from a different perspective. Decisions made outside of the realm of emotional response are often very different than the ones driven by emotion, and sometimes you have to remove that emotion to arrive at the best decision for all involved. This holds true for everyone in every situation.

I feel that culling is part of ethical breeding. I could never kill a healthy dog so I don't breed and I don't work in that section of rescue. There are many responsible breeders that don't cull and that is their choice, and if they can take care of all of the puppies they produce then they are responsible in their own right.

there are activities that you can not do with an altered dog. The people who want to participate in those activities have to get dogs from breeders to participate, since you can't get an unaltered dog anywhere else. Maybe the FIRST place to start is all the dog sports that refuse to allow any altered dogs in. I think that would make a difference in rescue.
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