Aggression Poll

This is where to talk about Pit Bulls!

Is your dog dog-aggressive?

OMG s/he will kill any dog in sight.
5
10%
Yes, but it's controllable.
25
52%
Nope.
18
38%
 
Total votes : 48

Postby SisMorphine » June 16th, 2006, 7:48 am

DemoDick wrote:Dog aggression is only a "problem" if the owner doesn't want to deal with it or refuses to acknowledge that it is NORMAL DOG BEHAVIOR.

I would say it was normal pit bull behavior, but not exactly normal dog behavior since dogs in general are a pack animal, with the exception of the breeds that we (as humans) have tampered with.

Personally I see dog aggression as a problem. Probably because I don't want to deal with it. And it's not that I want a no maintenance dog, it's just that I find dog aggression unacceptable in my house, with my job and lifestyle, which is one of the reasons I do not have a pit bull. I am along the lines of hoping that one day the aggression can be bred out, to make the "perfect" dog, though as has been said before the attempt to do so would bring on some other effects along with it, which most likely would be bad. It's just a dream I guess.

So until I live in a big enough house where I can crate and rotate, and where I DON'T have many many many different and new dogs walking through my house each week, I am unwilling to deal with dog aggression and yes, it is a problem.

Which sucks, because I love everything else about the breed.
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Postby DemoDick » June 16th, 2006, 10:04 am

RE: Dog Aggression
I would say it was normal pit bull behavior, but not exactly normal dog behavior since dogs in general are a pack animal, with the exception of the breeds that we (as humans) have tampered with.


Even wild dogs who live in packs frequently exhibit some aggression to their own kind. That is, after all, how pack order is decided. That's why it is normal. There are examples of every breed that are dog aggressive. It's something that anyone who gets a dog should be prepared to deal with.

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Postby cheekymunkee » June 16th, 2006, 10:49 am

You really cannot know what the dog was thinking, or that he knew he was dying.


You don't know that. Animals know when they are about to die, ever been to a shelter on euth day? They know.
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Postby cheekymunkee » June 16th, 2006, 10:54 am

bouvierz wrote:In reference to my statement re: re-homeing dogs I thought I read potst of people trying to find homes for "their" ( not rescues) dogs and were told that was a no no! But As someone already said that is PBF. My mistake(when you jump back and forth between forums it is easy to get confused). I did try to find a rescue for an American Bull dog that I removed from a case but I didnt get any answers. Luckily I found a rescue on my own and she is on the mend and looking for a new home. As far as my ability to do my job as aan investigator I am very fair but firm. I dont let my opinions of people or how they treat their animals cloud my judgement. So I didnt appreciate the comments about my job(or my investigation skills) and Im not associated with PETA in any way. Most (if not all ) of you Im sure are in it for the long haul and are willing to do whats needed for the love of your dogs but you are not the Norm. Dog aggression is and will continue to be a problem as long as that is the case. Accidents happen way to much, scumbags are drawn to these dogs and for now Pit bulls are cheap and easy to get a hold of. I met a guy today that bought 2 pups out of a car for $100.


Sorry my comments offended you, you have made a few offensive remarks as well. I just think if someone uses investigative skills for work, they would use them in other aspects of life as well. This is NOT PBF, doesn't even LOOK like PBF. We do have some of the same members but that is all. It doesn't take much to look around to see if the comments or observations you are making are about the correct forum. PBF allows rescue posts, they just prefer the poster be familiar with the dogs they are posting.

It seems to me if someone is going to make comments, remarks & observations about people & dogs they do not know they would do a little investigating before hand. :|
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Postby SpiritFngrz » June 16th, 2006, 10:54 am

cheekymunkee wrote:
You really cannot know what the dog was thinking, or that he knew he was dying.


You don't know that. Animals know when they are about to die, ever been to a shelter on euth day? They know.


Which is exactly why I think shelter/rescue dogs are all the more appreciative of the people who adopt/"save" them. I firmly believe they really do know.
My mom's Rottie was on death row at the pound. That was 10 years ago, we bought him for $5. Best $5 ever spent! He is a love-bug and I truly think he appreciates us.

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Postby msvette2u » June 17th, 2006, 1:52 am

Personally I see dog aggression as a problem. Probably because I don't want to deal with it. And it's not that I want a no maintenance dog, it's just that I find dog aggression unacceptable in my house, with my job and lifestyle, which is one of the reasons I do not have a pit bull.


That is how I feel as well, and I think that DA IS killing the breed at least to an extent because it seems many people feel that way. If they didn't, and if pit bulls weren't, they would be MUCH easier to find homes for.
Plus BSL crops up whenever "incidents" happen, such as pit bulls attacking and killing other dogs. So to an extent, I'd have to say that DA definately "hurts" the breed.
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Postby dogcrazyjen » June 17th, 2006, 10:01 am

You don't know that. Animals know when they are about to die, ever been to a shelter on euth day? They know.



Dogs are not capable of abstract thought. Death is an abstract thought. Dogs are, however, very astute at reading body language. It is far, far more likely that dogs in a shelter are reading the body language of the shelter workers, which would be different on the days that euthanizations are carried out. Death may indeed carry a smell which is an alarm call to dogs, I don't know. I do not think that the dogs are capable of conciously thinking "I am going to die today."

Any dog who has been to the vet may be afraid of needles, so even seeing the needle and having fear does not mean they know they will die.

Dogs will act as if they are afraid of death, when more likely they are afraid of the pain most causes of death inflict, or their bodies are chemically reacting to outside stimulus.

A dog may have a gut panic reaction if it is drowning, but it is unlikely it understands that the result of drowning is death. An infant will struggle if it is drowning, but even at 3 years old a child has no real concept of death. If you have ever tried to explain to a toddler what death is, it is quite obvious they cannot concieve of the idea. The body has very strong chemical reactions when it is in danger which have nothing to do with conscious thought. If you would like I can get out my psychology book and point out what parts of the brain are reacting with what chemicals. It is very interesting how much of our actions are unconscious.

Which is exactly why I think shelter/rescue dogs are all the more appreciative of the people who adopt/"save" them. I firmly believe they really do know.
My mom's Rottie was on death row at the pound. That was 10 years ago, we bought him for $5. Best $5 ever spent! He is a love-bug and I truly think he appreciates us.


You have a rott. They are by definition cuddly and human pack oriented. I have seen many paid for bred rotts act the same way.


Dogs from a shelter may or may not be grateful, but again, I do not think that dogs are capable of that level of thought. All of my dogs have been rescues, and some seemed 'grateful' and some not. I think it is more likely that we pick dogs which exibit the behaviors we want. I do not look for really cuddly, 'grateful' dogs, so I usually do not get that show of 'gratefulness'. I rescue dogs because usually I am looking for a performance dog, not a warm fuzzy feeling, so I get more drive and independance than velcro dogs. Tess is certainly a lot better off than before, but she acts as any pit bull of that level of drive and affection would. I could read she is grateful since she loves to be with us and cuddle, but I do not think that is what it is. My border/lab appeared grateful, but she was just a very human driven, very submissive, needy, cuddly dog anyways, and even if I got her at 8 weeks likely would have been the same.


The anthropomorphizing here is astounding. It really does not hurt anything, but if we are going to talk behavior lets stick with that. If we are going to be emotional, I am more than happy to do that. But the two really have little to do with each other.
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Postby SisMorphine » June 17th, 2006, 10:16 am

DemoDick wrote:RE: Dog Aggression
I would say it was normal pit bull behavior, but not exactly normal dog behavior since dogs in general are a pack animal, with the exception of the breeds that we (as humans) have tampered with.


Even wild dogs who live in packs frequently exhibit some aggression to their own kind. That is, after all, how pack order is decided. That's why it is normal. There are examples of every breed that are dog aggressive. It's something that anyone who gets a dog should be prepared to deal with.

Demo Dick

I don't see deciding pack order as aggression. I see it more as social necessity. When I think "dog aggression" I think of a dog who either wants all dogs dead, or who wants certain dogs dead, seemingly based on little to no reason. Irrational Behavior.

Deciding pack order is rational. Correcting other dogs is rational. Wanting a dog dead because it's in your sights is not. I see a HUGE difference there.
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Postby Maryellen » June 17th, 2006, 10:28 am

there are rotts that are not cuddly and affectionate. it depends on the genetics, background, where they came from. i did rott rescue, and alot of the rotts were not as affectionate as pit bulls. some were, some werent.
as far as feeling grateful, my rott shows it more then jesse and rufus. he was in a shelter when i got him, and even though he is a mix, he was more grateful when i brought him home to live in a house as opposed to a shelter.
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Postby a-bull » June 17th, 2006, 10:41 am

SisMorphine wrote:
DemoDick wrote:RE: Dog Aggression
I would say it was normal pit bull behavior, but not exactly normal dog behavior since dogs in general are a pack animal, with the exception of the breeds that we (as humans) have tampered with.


Even wild dogs who live in packs frequently exhibit some aggression to their own kind. That is, after all, how pack order is decided. That's why it is normal. There are examples of every breed that are dog aggressive. It's something that anyone who gets a dog should be prepared to deal with.

Demo Dick

I don't see deciding pack order as aggression. I see it more as social necessity. When I think "dog aggression" I think of a dog who either wants all dogs dead, or who wants certain dogs dead, seemingly based on little to no reason. Irrational Behavior.

Deciding pack order is rational. Correcting other dogs is rational. Wanting a dog dead because it's in your sights is not. I see a HUGE difference there.


I agree.

I even think when you hear about people who have pitbulls that have lived happily together and then there is a horrible fight---I think those situations are often just pack order disputes, but because we're dealing with a very dog aggressive breed, a breed that is very strong and tenacious, it goes over-the-top.

Of course it's "irresponsible owners" that are the problem---people who shouldn't own the breed in the first place---but what do you do about that? Should we maybe implement some people specific legislation regarding pitbull ownership? Would all of the owners on these forums---seemingly responsible people---even qualify??

Dog aggression in pitbulls in this day and age is not "just a trait" anymore---it is a problem, and it is one of the main problems that is causing headlines and it is one of the biggest reasons pitbulls are being put down. It is adding to the bsl issues and bsl is making it difficult for all of us.

Of course I don't like it, of course I'd love to see 'more responsible ownership,' but that's not the reality right now---so I think to just compare a pitbulls dog aggression to a Jack Russell's, or to talk about other breeds that aren't making headlines and aren't suffering from bsl, is pointless. It isn't the Jack Russells of the world that are making the headlines, it's this breed, and we need to address ALL issues surrounding it---not just lull ourselves into thinking the only problem is irresponsible ownership and the only solution is more responsible ownership.

Isn't what happened in Denver proof enough that being a resonsible owner just isn't enough?
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Postby msvette2u » June 17th, 2006, 11:12 am

a-bull wrote:I even think when you hear about people who have pitbulls that have lived happily together and then there is a horrible fight---I think those situations are often just pack order disputes, but because we're dealing with a very dog aggressive breed, a breed that is very strong and tenacious, it goes over-the-top.

Of course it's "irresponsible owners" that are the problem---people who shouldn't own the breed in the first place---but what do you do about that? Should we maybe implement some people specific legislation regarding pitbull ownership? Would all of the owners on these forums---seemingly responsible people---even qualify??

Dog aggression in pitbulls in this day and age is not "just a trait" anymore---it is a problem, and it is one of the main problems that is causing headlines and it is one of the biggest reasons pitbulls are being put down. It is adding to the bsl issues and bsl is making it difficult for all of us.

Of course I don't like it, of course I'd love to see 'more responsible ownership,' but that's not the reality right now---so I think to just compare a pitbulls dog aggression to a Jack Russell's, or to talk about other breeds that aren't making headlines and aren't suffering from bsl, is pointless. It isn't the Jack Russells of the world that are making the headlines, it's this breed, and we need to address ALL issues surrounding it---not just lull ourselves into thinking the only problem is irresponsible ownership and the only solution is more responsible ownership.

Isn't what happened in Denver proof enough that being a resonsible owner just isn't enough?


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Postby Romanwild » June 17th, 2006, 12:19 pm

I know you're trying to come up with an answer to the dillema but the stuff you say scares the crap out of me.

a-bull wrote:
I even think when you hear about people who have pitbulls that have lived happily together and then there is a horrible fight---I think those situations are often just pack order disputes, but because we're dealing with a very dog aggressive breed, a breed that is very strong and tenacious, it goes over-the-top.

Of course it's "irresponsible owners" that are the problem---people who shouldn't own the breed in the first place---but what do you do about that? Should we maybe implement some people specific legislation regarding pitbull ownership? Would all of the owners on these forums---seemingly responsible people---even qualify??


You just suggeted BSL! Call it people specific if you want but what you wrote is breed specific!

Dog aggression in pitbulls in this day and age is not "just a trait" anymore---it is a problem, and it is one of the main problems that is causing headlines and it is one of the biggest reasons pitbulls are being put down. It is adding to the bsl issues and bsl is making it difficult for all of us.


DA will not be bred out. Any study of genetics will show that that is not a realistic alternative. If you disagree with me, then show me where it has previously been done and please tell me how you propose to get all pit bull breeders on board with this idea.

Of course I don't like it, of course I'd love to see 'more responsible ownership,' but that's not the reality right now---so I think to just compare a pitbulls dog aggression to a Jack Russell's, or to talk about other breeds that aren't making headlines and aren't suffering from bsl, is pointless. It isn't the Jack Russells of the world that are making the headlines, it's this breed, and we need to address ALL issues surrounding it---not just lull ourselves into thinking the only problem is irresponsible ownership and the only solution is more responsible ownership.


ahhhh.....how can you discount the idea of responsible ownership? The dogs are dogs. They are what they are and some global breeding plan isn't going to change them even if you had magical powers that could brainwash all the breeders.

[b]Isn't what happened in Denver proof enough that being a responsible owner just isn't enough?


Denver doesn't have BSL despite responsible owners! They have it because of irresponsible owners. That's nuts!

Sorry but I have zero tolerance for any idea that helps BSL.

If anyone in this breed feels like we should give up then do me a favor and send me your pit bulls so I can find homes for them with people who will be as "game" as the breed when it comes to fighting BSL. You'd probably be happier with a Lab.

Your line of thought plays right intot the hands of the Michael Bryants of the world. Why don't you stick a fork in the breed because to follow your logic can only lead to their extermination. [/i]
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Postby a-bull » June 17th, 2006, 12:55 pm

No kidding what I suggested was bsl. :nono:

My point was mass regualtions aren't the answer---whether they are breed specific, owner specific, tree specific, or monkey specific. The problem is multi-faceted, needs to be addressed on many levels, and to ignore some obvious issues is what is really detrimental to the issue at hand.

You're not seeing my point, nor are you even trying to when you make such antagonistic remarks.

Lashing out at a responsible pitbull owner and one who is actively involved in fighting bsl is not productive.

Pitbull owners not pulling together with thoughts and ideas, and instead lashing out at other responsible pitbull owners with such blanket assumptions is just not productive.
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Postby pocketpit » June 17th, 2006, 2:30 pm

Dog aggression in pitbulls in this day and age is not "just a trait" anymore---it is a problem, and it is one of the main problems that is causing headlines and it is one of the biggest reasons pitbulls are being put down. It is adding to the bsl issues and bsl is making it difficult for all of us


I have to disagree with this statement. DA is not one of the main headline causing situations and it is not the biggest reason pit bulls are being put down. People are the reason plain and simple.

Anthropomorphizing is a serious problem with people now days. When did animals stop being animals? Why do people feel that there must be "world peace" in the animal kingdom? Dogs are domesticated but they are still animals and behave as such. Why don't we breed the hunting insticts and territorial instincts out of domestic cats while we are at it? I mean they kill other animals too and fight at the drop of a hat with strange cats. I can understand why some people don't care for certain characteristics hence the reason for so many different breeds of dogs. If you don't care to live with dog aggression that's fine with me but why must you try and destroy the breed of dog I enjoy because it doesn't fit your personal taste?
And why are there so many irresponsible and stupid owners out there now days? They are a serious threat to animal ownership in general. I think people are way to domesticated and spoiled nowdays and it's causing a lack of common sense and understanding when it comes to animals.

Pit Bulls and other bull and terrier breeds were bred for how long to be aggressive towards other animals including other dogs? Stop and think about how many years. Now ask yourself why aggression towards dogs and other animals was never a problem before. Do we really think that the DA is new or has evolved to a new level never seen before? I personally don't think that. So why is it suddenly now a problem? Intolerance by certain people and the ability for mass persuasion if you ask me. The human race has throughout history shown a pattern of intolerance and desire to eradicate that which is hates or doesn't understand.

Until the 1980's when Sports Illustrated came out with their feature story on the fearsome Pit Bull and that one television special showed the pit bull running up the tree to catch his tire and Benny attacking the ACO officer, most households had never even heard of a pit bull. There was no problem with the breed, no largely held belief that they were viscious and had locking jaws, etc. Then thanks to that effort on the media's part to create controversy and ratings for financial gain, not only did the pit bull population explode but the mass persuasion of fear began. People with no experience suddenly are petrified and the unsavory and irresponsible folks took advantage of the fact and made pit bulls the new guard dog of choice. Thus began a serious downward spiral for the breed's temperment and health as well as their public reputation. Once they were war mascots standing for loyalty and courage and suddenly they are the devil with four legs.

And people had everthing to do with it.
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Postby cheekymunkee » June 17th, 2006, 2:34 pm

pocketpit wrote:
Dog aggression in pitbulls in this day and age is not "just a trait" anymore---it is a problem, and it is one of the main problems that is causing headlines and it is one of the biggest reasons pitbulls are being put down. It is adding to the bsl issues and bsl is making it difficult for all of us


I have to disagree with this statement. DA is not one of the main headline causing situations and it is not the biggest reason pit bulls are being put down. People are the reason plain and simple.

Anthropomorphizing is a serious problem with people now days. When did animals stop being animals? Why do people feel that there must be "world peace" in the animal kingdom? Dogs are domesticated but they are still animals and behave as such. Why don't we breed the hunting insticts and territorial instincts out of domestic cats while we are at it? I mean they kill other animals too and fight at the drop of a hat with strange cats. I can understand why some people don't care for certain characteristics hence the reason for so many different breeds of dogs. If you don't care to live with dog aggression that's fine with me but why must you try and destroy the breed of dog I enjoy because it doesn't fit your personal taste?
And why are there so many irresponsible and stupid owners out there now days? They are a serious threat to animal ownership in general. I think people are way to domesticated and spoiled nowdays and it's causing a lack of common sense and understanding when it comes to animals.

Pit Bulls and other bull and terrier breeds were bred for how long to be aggressive towards other animals including other dogs? Stop and think about how many years. Now ask yourself why aggression towards dogs and other animals was never a problem before. Do we really think that the DA is new or has evolved to a new level never seen before? I personally don't think that. So why is it suddenly now a problem? Intolerance by certain people and the ability for mass persuasion if you ask me. The human race has throughout history shown a pattern of intolerance and desire to eradicate that which is hates or doesn't understand.

Until the 1980's when Sports Illustrated came out with their feature story on the fearsome Pit Bull and that one television special showed the pit bull running up the tree to catch his tire and Benny attacking the ACO officer, most households had never even heard of a pit bull. There was no problem with the breed, no largely held belief that they were viscious and had locking jaws, etc. Then thanks to that effort on the media's part to create controversy and ratings for financial gain, not only did the pit bull population explode but the mass persuasion of fear began. People with no experience suddenly are petrified and the unsavory and irresponsible folks took advantage of the fact and made pit bulls the new guard dog of choice. Thus began a serious downward spiral for the breed's temperment and health as well as their public reputation. Once they were war mascots standing for loyalty and courage and suddenly they are the devil with four legs.

And people had everthing to do with it.


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Postby a-bull » June 17th, 2006, 2:51 pm

Great post.

My point is completely lost, though.

I know it's a people problem. I know, I know, I know . . . I KNOW it's an "irresponsible owner" problem . . .

But it is what it is, and not addressing other aspects of the problem is going to allow the problem to linger and get worse.

It is human nature to want to compartmentalize one small aspect of a problem and tend to only that issue.

In the case of the American Pitbull Terrier and its' current plight, that is not going to be enough.

Anyways, good post "pocketpit."
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Postby Marinepits » June 17th, 2006, 2:54 pm

a-bull wrote:Great post.

My point is completely lost, though.

I know it's a people problem. I know, I know, I know . . . I KNOW it's an "irresponsible owner" problem . . .

But it is what it is, and not addressing other aspects of the problem is going to allow the problem to linger and get worse.

It is human nature to want to compartmentalize one small aspect of a problem and tend to only that issue.

In the case of the American Pitbull Terrier and its' current plight, that is not going to be enough.

Anyways, good post "pocketpit."


I agree. For us as APBT owners, we need to fight BSL and public perception of our chosen breeds from all sides.
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Postby pocketpit » June 17th, 2006, 4:03 pm

I'll not disagree with that particular point. I'll be honest and say I have no real idea what the answer to our breed's problem is. There are going to be issues with every solution. I'm just not sure that deliberately trying to breed out dog aggression is an even semi reasonable answer.

If all dog aggressive dogs were eliminated, then I wouldn't have the opportunity to own a dog like Brooks. She ranks between an 8 and a 9 on DJ's scale yet I've been hugely sucessful with her. She's an Int. Ch. has all 15 of her AKC points (she needed one more major to finish), has both her AKC and UKC CD, has NADAC and AKC novice agility and AKC novice jumpers titles, has a leg towards her AKC open agility title, has her WDS with the IWA and was a gold and silver medallist two years in a row when she was pulling. She also has her TT, CGC and passed her FR Brevet.

If we try to breed dog aggression down are we also going to do that with other breeds? That would mean changing breeding practices for all of the working group and terrier group of dogs as well as many other breeds from other groups like the non sporting group.
I don't think it's feasable nor do I think that even if we attained our goal that the public's perception of our breed would change that much. The damage has been done. My personal bsl fight is trying to educate those around me. I may not be able to make a giant impact but if everyone made a small one it may eventually make a difference. When I first started at the clinics that I've worked for pit bulls were not held in a favorable light. I'm proud to say that is not the case anymore. And there will always be folks who don't care for them but I can say that even those co workers now treat incoming patients with respect and a little understanding instead of fear. Knowlege is power.

I can say the same thing is regards to a couple of the dog sports I'm involved in. My agility instructor was overly afraid that I would have an out of control dog that would eat the other student's dogs. She didn't see a cute, happy SBT at the end of my leash. She saw a dreaded pit bull. Not only she but the other students over the years have all walked away with a better understanding and positive memories associated with my dogs. I have one student that is paranoid about all large dogs being dog aggressive and she almost quit when she heard that there would be a "pit bull" on the premises during her classes. It did not help when someone's DA Golden attacked Brooks the first night of class and she naturally defended herself. She's still timid around my dogs and still fearful of dog aggression in general but she now proudly proclaims to others and reminds me constantly that she mustered up enough courage to pet Dice. She regularly gives treats and lovings to Brooks. This is a student who loves Scotties and her female is not good with other dogs :|

The French Ring crowd did not generally look upon pit bulls with favorable eyes either. The local folks have all been converted into fans of Brooks and now view pit bulls in a different light. Others who have joined the sport after us with their pit bulls and Am Bulldogs have done similar things for the breed all over the country.

It's a small thing but it's the only thing I know will work. To me education is the key. People need to be made aware that they are acting like sheep. Too many folks go through life without being able to think for themselves. Go through the expected motions and check the boxes as you complete them.

I don't have any answers other than that one and no way to make it feasable on a grand scale. My other post was more for people who continue to want to blame the breed's problems on the breed itself. I think we can all agree that breed characteristics make it difficult to fight our battle but I don't think it's fair to blame the battle on the breed.
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Postby Romanwild » June 17th, 2006, 4:47 pm

a-bull wrote:No kidding what I suggested was bsl. :nono:

My point was mass regualtions aren't the answer---whether they are breed specific, owner specific, tree specific, or monkey specific. The problem is multi-faceted, needs to be addressed on many levels, and to ignore some obvious issues is what is really detrimental to the issue at hand.

You're not seeing my point, nor are you even trying to when you make such antagonistic remarks.

Lashing out at a responsible pitbull owner and one who is actively involved in fighting bsl is not productive.

Pitbull owners not pulling together with thoughts and ideas, and instead lashing out at other responsible pitbull owners with such blanket assumptions is just not productive.


Please thicken your skin and I will tone down my responses.

There is nothing wrong with our breed. To say that DA is a problem is to say that part of the problem is the breed. BSL advocates would love to read that!

Education, promoting responsible ownership, public speaking, getting out there with yours dogs, etc is, imo, the best way to make a difference.

My club has changed quite a few perceptions in 9 months. Most importantly the medias.

We have given a talk at the local Teen Center to kids that have grown up learning it's o.k. to fight your pit bulls. We talked about animal cruelty, the truth about the breed, BSL, pay and nutering, other activities you can do with your pit bull etc.

That's how you change the state of the breed. In your own back yard.

Another example is the bullympics. We have to get militant and in your face with our approach.

Maybe you don't think what your saying is helping BSL but it is. You're suggeting that the dogs themselves are part of the problem. That will only help the other side to wipe these amazing creatures off the planet. Please don't feed the ignorance and fear that wants these dogs dead.
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Romanwild
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Postby a-bull » June 17th, 2006, 5:09 pm

lol . . . having a thick skin isn't a problem of mine . . .

And no I personally do not think that the dogs themselves are part of the problem, but just as there are "irresponsbile owners," there are also plenty of "irresponsible breeders." It's more than just a responsible ownership problem.

I appreciate what your club does and we could use many more of them.

I deal with bsl on a legal level. Feel free to pm me if you ever need any assistance.

:)
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My posts are my own opinions unless otherwise stated. They are not necessarily correct for all dogs or all owners.
a-bull
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