Aggression Poll

This is where to talk about Pit Bulls!

Is your dog dog-aggressive?

OMG s/he will kill any dog in sight.
5
10%
Yes, but it's controllable.
25
52%
Nope.
18
38%
 
Total votes : 48

Postby Maryellen » June 15th, 2006, 10:55 am

any breed can be DA. its just how much DA.. all in all, i think this is a very good heated discussion going on. everyone is being nice , no name calling has been done, and we are all argueing like proper adults :clap: thank you everyone for keeping it real!!
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Postby a-bull » June 15th, 2006, 11:10 am

Karen wrote:
a-bull wrote:Here's a decent link/opinion regarding what I'm referring to regarding pitbulls still being bred for dog aggression.

http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/thoughts.html

Here's a quote from the article, and I have found this to be true:

The American Pit Bull Terrier's story is mired in sad reality. Some fanciers, many who call themselves "dogmen", claim that in order to produce the real APBT, the dogs must be fought so they can prove their gameness (i.e. willingness to keep going despite pain and exhaustion). In their opinion, only the candidates that don't quit a fight are true representatives of the breed and should be bred - The others are called "curs" and eliminated.

Those people firmly believe that the abolishment of "Gametesting" would destroy the APBT breed.


You are talking about an org that was started BY A DOG FIGHTER AND HIS WIFE. Hellfreakingo? V and Rob ran with a hard assed crowd back in the day and found Jesus. A lot of dogs died after that some owners were found guilty others got an oops so sorry have a nice life too bad the dogs are dead.

V and Rog had REGISTERED dogs too. Know what they did to one female because she was DA? Put her down. Xena's breeder asked many times for her to be returned instead of killed.

All of that dog fighting crap on PBRC I take with a boulder of salt.


Whatever . . . I didn't say I go out drinking with them, I simply thought the info. was well-put in the article. Besides, who better to give such info. than people who have been there?? I'm glad he found Jesus. Sounds like it did him some good.
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My posts are my own opinions unless otherwise stated. They are not necessarily correct for all dogs or all owners.
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Postby cheekymunkee » June 15th, 2006, 1:10 pm

Wow look, a post on another board about a DA scnauzer. How did THAT happen?? :?


Schnauzer Went After B *RANT*

We were out walking this evening (on leash of course) and going by a neighbor's fenced in yard, the little crap snarled and barked at us like crazy but then it came OUTSIDE the fence and into the street, right up to B and started jumping up and viciously snapping at him...
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Postby SpiritFngrz » June 15th, 2006, 1:14 pm

My MIL's yorkie is DA. I think it's just Napoleon syndrome though. :ROFL2: :shake:
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Postby call2arms » June 15th, 2006, 3:40 pm

I've met quite a lot of pit bulls. Some were dog aggro, some not. BUT... The most intensely DA dog I've ever seen, hold on... Was a JRT.

He was at the kennel where I worked, and would not even play with us in the playroom because he KNEW that there were dogs around and he would just stand thre, go to the kennel door, wait, whine...

He was there to be TRAINED for his severe DA. Mind you nothing worked, the bad trainer that worked there didn't know anything about that kind of stuff. During his 1 month stay, he attacked a Bearded Collie and a Border collie mix, and almost got to another JRT and a Cocker. Mind you that was bad management, and that was not me.

So. Yes, very intense DA is ANY breed's problem. And that little twat would be very happy to REDIRECT on your hand whenever he felt like "getting it on" and it was too close.
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Postby DemoDick » June 15th, 2006, 7:17 pm

cheekymunkee wrote:
Actually Demo Dick said he likes his dogs 'gameness' and so do others with truly gamebred dogs.


Dog aggression and gamness are NOT the same thing. My dog is DA, that is NOT to say he is game.


Thanks. My thoughts exactly.

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Postby DemoDick » June 15th, 2006, 7:28 pm

cheekymunkee wrote:
I have seen some of these gamebred dog on this and other forums and they appear to have lots of scars?????


Why the mention of game bred? Do you really think you can tell a game bred dog by looking at a picture?

Demo has NO idea if his dog is game or gamebred, he is a rescue dog. He has never been tested as far as he knows & if he WAS game I doubt he would have been in the dumpster where he was found.


He's never been fought (to my knowledge). But I do believe that he is game. I define gameness as the refusal to quit the task at hand despite a clear and known risk of death or serious injury.

Connor has been in at least one situation in which he KNEW that he was close to dying, in fact he almost did...but he refused to quit (despite my screaming at him to give up and swim to shore). Michelle was there and can verify it. Once he decides he's going to do something he will either do it or die trying. That's game.

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Postby dogcrazyjen » June 15th, 2006, 9:18 pm

Connor has been in at least one situation in which he KNEW that he was close to dying, in fact he almost did.


You really cannot know what the dog was thinking, or that he knew he was dying.

However, I apologize for misinterpreting what you meant by gameness.

My point was that the list that someone made did indeed have some grain of truth in it. If the other person assumed like I did that by game you meant DA and unrelenting drive, then that comment could indeed have been valid.

I have heard death stories (I seem to recall involving a kitchen and two doors which were breached), rehoming (anissa does indeed count-just the potential for DA has her rehoming (again, a decision I agree with), scarring (my own girls).

These are not things to be ashamed of, they are what they are. But lets not deny them, or qualify them by saying there must be x amount of examples before it is valid.
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Postby cheekymunkee » June 15th, 2006, 10:36 pm

I have seen some of these gamebred dog on this and other forums and they appear to have lots of scars?????


I have heard many of you talk about rehomeing your dog, and putting them to sleep due to dog aggression so I guess it is a problem isnt it.



Many and lots indicate more than one. "You" & "this board" make it personal.


Rehoming dog- you dont allow people to post those- but my shelter is full of them along with every shelter in the USA



we have a rescue section where she is free to list dogs from her shelter if she so chooses, I have yet to see anyone told they could not list a dog.

Annissa is rehoming her pup due to more than just the possibility of dog aggression. Her husband is leaving for Iraq, she has a young child & is due to have surgery. Her life is going to be chaotic enough with what she has on her plate now, she realizes the puppy would onl ADD to her stress. By the sound of her posts she is already beyond stressed & her husband has not left yet. I would hate to be in her shoes.

In Munkee' case, he had not shown any DA until the day he grabbed Justice. I was watching him closely because he had become less tolerant but had shown no DA as of yet, it was more like annoyance. When he turned DA he turned on with a vengance. I am ok with his dog aggression. I understand it, I expected it, I deal with it. I accept him as he is & I love him with a passion. He will never be a headline, he is not a problem to my neighbor's, there is never a time where he is allowed contact with any other dog but Ollie. When he leaves the house he is in the car, when he is on leash he is controllable as long as I control the situation. he is never anywhere that other dogs are, if they show up, we leave. My vet allows him to come in the side door to keep him from being stressed. My vet understands him. If he were in someone else's hands he probably would be a huge liabilty to the breed. With me, he is not. I make concessions for my dog, there are places I don;t go & things I do not do because of him. I am ok with that, it is my duty as his owner. My neighbor's never complain about him. Their dogs carry on at the fence & the window as much as he does when a dog walks by. It's a dog thing. :wink: He has bever hurt anyone's dog but my own. It happened 3 years ago & will never happen again.
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Postby DemoDick » June 15th, 2006, 11:22 pm

You really cannot know what the dog was thinking, or that he knew he was dying.


Yes, I can. Every air-breathing mammal knows that drowning=death, at least when they are in the midst of actually drowning. He was.

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Postby bouvierz » June 15th, 2006, 11:33 pm

In reference to my statement re: re-homeing dogs I thought I read potst of people trying to find homes for "their" ( not rescues) dogs and were told that was a no no! But As someone already said that is PBF. My mistake(when you jump back and forth between forums it is easy to get confused). I did try to find a rescue for an American Bull dog that I removed from a case but I didnt get any answers. Luckily I found a rescue on my own and she is on the mend and looking for a new home. As far as my ability to do my job as aan investigator I am very fair but firm. I dont let my opinions of people or how they treat their animals cloud my judgement. So I didnt appreciate the comments about my job(or my investigation skills) and Im not associated with PETA in any way. Most (if not all ) of you Im sure are in it for the long haul and are willing to do whats needed for the love of your dogs but you are not the Norm. Dog aggression is and will continue to be a problem as long as that is the case. Accidents happen way to much, scumbags are drawn to these dogs and for now Pit bulls are cheap and easy to get a hold of. I met a guy today that bought 2 pups out of a car for $100.
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Postby bouvierz » June 15th, 2006, 11:46 pm

Here are some of the "signs of dog fighting" I was trained to look for...

1. Springpoles (guilty)
2. Possession of break sticks (guilty)
3. Multiple dogs separated by tie outs (guilty)
4. Scarred dogs (guilty)
5. Possession of treadmills for the purpose of conditioning (guilty)
6. Possession of antibiotics and/or suturing kits (guilty-but these are not kept for, or used on the dogs)

Add to this that I keep my dog conditioned with visible ribs and vertebrae and he's dog-aggressive. But I don't fight my dog and actually enjoy his gameness. A game dog is a beautiful thing. Those who have them understand this.

These are good indicators but as you know we need more info and evidence than than. Cruelty cases are tough to prove, especially dog fighting because most of it is underground.
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Postby DemoDick » June 15th, 2006, 11:50 pm

Dog aggression is and will continue to be a problem...


Dog aggression is not a problem. The problem is that people want "no-maintenance" dogs. They want hypo-allergenic dogs that don't bark, don't shed, housebreak themselves, train themselves, exercise themselves, display zero aggression (of any kind), and can solve their own behavioral problems by reading self-help books.

Dog aggression is only a "problem" if the owner doesn't want to deal with it or refuses to acknowledge that it is NORMAL DOG BEHAVIOR. Sure, people put dogs down for dog aggression. They also put them down (or dump them in a shelter) because they bark too much, smell funny, take a lot of time to train or don't match the new sofa.

If "people" have that much of a problem with dog aggression then they should stick to non-canine pets.

Demo Dick
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Postby Jp » June 15th, 2006, 11:55 pm

uhmmmm I didn't read the whole thread...only page 1. I have three females right now :o yup....three and not one is da :)
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Postby mnp13 » June 15th, 2006, 11:58 pm

dogcrazyjen wrote:You really cannot know what the dog was thinking, or that he knew he was dying.


Actually, it was obvious and quite scary...

He went in swimming and decided to attempt to get the bouys attached to the old dock poles up at the lake. They were tied to a metal stake with a piece of old tow rope. We thought it was funny and he wouldn't give up on them. We figured he'd give up after a little while, as the tow rope wasn't budging. He kept pulling and swimming in circles. Then he went under. Then he went under again. He came up and kept pulling on the bouy - which he had never let go of.. Under again. Now we realize there really is a problem and start trying to call him off. It bacame apparent that he was knotted up in the rope. He's not coming - he's now bobbing and yanking on those stupid things every time he comes up. Demo starts taking his shoes off to go in after him, but we're not exactly close to him, as we were watching from the neighbor's dock. The rope broke, and he made it back to shore. He gagged the whole way back and coughed up a LOT of water, and then puked up more.

That's about as close to drowning as I can figure, and he never let go of the stupid bouys. Had we not been there, and the rope had not broken, he would have drowned. There is no doubt in our minds.

We got him up the hill and made him go into camp to rest... he couldn't be outside with us because he started heading back down the hill for the last one that was still attached.
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Postby Fear_the_Sheeple » June 16th, 2006, 12:14 am

Wow, that must have been so scary!
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Postby mnp13 » June 16th, 2006, 12:17 am

Fear_the_Sheeple wrote:Wow, that must have been so scary!


yeah.. it wasn't the best day. Hind sight is always 20/20 of course. We should have realized the problem long before we did.
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Postby Fear_the_Sheeple » June 16th, 2006, 12:21 am

The important thing is you didn't realize after it was too late.
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Postby Red » June 16th, 2006, 12:49 am

I believe I already mentioned it, the "ACCIDENTS" I dont get are the one that happen with dogs who you already know are DA. I have had hundreds of dogs in my home of all differernt Temperments and I have NEVER had an incedent!!!! ( but I know one poster believes Im hiding some kind of incident) Just lucky I guess.My fosters are never out unattended if they are problem children.


All the dogs currently here are dog aggressive to strange dogs but as you know it is not uncommon for even highly aggressive bulldogs to live peacefully with other dogs in your household.Things are okey for a long while and there is no sign or apparent reason for them to flat out attack a member of the household.But it can happen.The dog who grabbed one of my own did not show any kind of behavior that made me think he was going to do what he did.If there was a hint of it he wouldn't have been around my little dog.With several dogs here in the past 5 years I must have some understanding of how to manage multiple bulldogs otherwise I would have lost some of them and the only accident would have caused more than two puncture wounds.I don't belive in luck when it comes to these dogs.You are very confident you won't have to deal with a dog fight and I wish you the best on that but don't be too sure.It would be a mistake.Genetic can "hide" for years.
Dogs here get along fairly well under supervision (the foster who attacked mine has had no contact with the little mutt since he attacked and it will stay that way and some dogs are near each other only in certain circumstances) so I have no reason for permanent separation and zero interaction between them.I am talking about under supervision only since all dogs are separated when I am not around.That said I don't think this is a guarantee for anything.If I was only to rely on what I see daily then I would not keep breaking sticks in every room of the house and the little dog would have died.After all the dogs got along just fine for a long time, just like your "no problem children".
You can't possibly be sure that even the friendliest bulldogs in your household won't never get into a scrap.You make a judgement call on which dogs are less like to get into a fight, from behaviors, body signals, general attitude, sex and so on and you take away triggers.And that is about it.In the meantime you are ready to brake a fight and quickly.
Many situations are preventable but not all of them.

I don't see why this is bothering you though.People who have a single accident, react appropriately and don't dump one of the dogs are not your enemy.I paid the vet bills, cared for the injured dog and surprise surprise the dog who attacked him is still here.Not only is quite aggressive toward small dogs and males but he is also a pain to confine.I have just raised my fences to 8 feet so he won't have to be on cable when he is in the yard.He is too much dog for me to pass on to someone else.I took him as a foster and he is now my responsabilty, in the good an bad.
I agree with being upsetl toward those whose dogs turn out to be dog aggressive and one has to go.My opinion is that they knew what they were going to get, breed wise.They made the decision to take the dogs in and they should deal with it.A while ago I had an argument with someone who had just rehomed a highly aggressive bulldog who almost killed his other male.He was defensive ( and I am sure very upset) and told me that I would have to be in shoes to understand.I have been for a while now and with a dog who is not even mine but a foster.It is not a stress free situation for sure but nobody is forced to get two or more bulldogs.
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Postby Violet » June 16th, 2006, 3:33 am

I said yes but controllable..but hmm..Maggie was rescued from being a fighting dog..she came to me covered in scars. And she will fight at the drop of a hat. She absolutely, positively cannot be face to face with another female dog, period. She cannot be around most other dogs, period. She cannot be taken out in public because she is too hard to manage if there is a loose dog that approaches. Even in our home, with our pack she has to be cautiously managed at all tiems. If I cannot be on top of the dogs she is seperated from everyone else.

Kya is dog reactive. Not so much aggressive. She is about ten. I have only had her since december. Kya is, however, a total freak. She is, far and away, the most powerful and drivey dog I have ever handled in my life. Leash walking her is something akin to putting a leash on a steam engine. Although she has gotten better. I have told my husband we would have a serious problem if her and Maggie ever got a chance to get to each other without at least a fence between them. I am not sure I could break it up.

Kitten is 2 years old and shows no dog aggression whatsoever. (picked up as a stray recently) She also has zero drive and is one of teh easiest pit bulls I have ever had here.

Clifford is approximately two and is great with female dogs but has territorial aggression from crate or kennel to male dogs. Has been able to be around male dogs without aggression off leash. He is also a very low drive dog unless you are a cat. :|
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