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Postby msvette2u » June 7th, 2006, 6:44 pm

What that dog did is 100% normal dog behavior. His owner had nothing to apologize for.

Normal for a dominant dog that hasn't been corrected and taught it's not acceptable to be aggressive towards (and bite) people.
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Postby a-bull » June 7th, 2006, 7:08 pm

mnp13 wrote:
dogcrazyjen wrote:This dog would have nailed you had you not moved. This dog was out in public, being petted by an unwarned stranger. This is acceptable?


Yup. It is. Why? because sometimes crap happens. I was the one who was almost injured and I take full responsibility for what happened. I was there I experienced what happened. The error was mine. Period.


dogcrazyjen wrote:I think this man was being very irresponsible. You did not say he gave you a warning prior to touching the dog, and it would have been pertinant to the story if he had, so one has to assume he gave none.


funny, I was the one there and I didn't feel he was irresponsible. He was dealing with an adult (me) I'm sure it didn't occur to him to say "if you put your arm over his head and he makes a sound like he likes the ear rub that's really him communicating that you are challenging him". I didn't get a warning because he probably figured that my brain cells were in the 'on' position. I wasn't warned about the possibility of him biting because who in their right mind thinks someone is going to challenge their dog and ignore the warnings that dog gives?

What that dog did is 100% normal dog behavior. His owner had nothing to apologize for.


. . . and to a certain extent it's about 'personal responsibility," right, Michelle?? Maybe you and I are around the same age, because I was taught never to approach someone elses dog or to touch it without permission---not that I always abide by that---but if I don't, and a dog acts out towards me, I sort of view it as my own dang fault for not speaking to the owner first . . .

Now I'm really going to sound old, because when I was a kid, there was ALWAYS a dog or two in the neighborhood that every kid's mom told them not to go near because it bit . . . and we didn't . . .

When did every dog that bites become a 'problem?' Why can't dogs bite anymore??
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Postby Maryellen » June 7th, 2006, 7:57 pm

because now people are sue happy.. when i was young there were alot of dogs in the neighborhood we had to stay away from... i got bit by my best friends collie twice in 2 months.. both were my fault.. nothing happened to the dog, i went to the dr, got meds, and came home.. never blamed the dog....
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Postby cheekymunkee » June 7th, 2006, 8:11 pm

msvette2u wrote:
What that dog did is 100% normal dog behavior. His owner had nothing to apologize for.

Normal for a dominant dog that hasn't been corrected and taught it's not acceptable to be aggressive towards (and bite) people.


Wait a minute..........didn't Yaeger bite your son? Are you going to take him into public places where other children might be?

OH!! Never mind, I misread your post. IMO that is not a bite, that is an accident. He didn't bite your son, he bit the toy & your son's hand was in the way.
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Postby Sue » June 7th, 2006, 8:15 pm

Maryellen wrote:because now people are sue happy.. when i was young there were alot of dogs in the neighborhood we had to stay away from... i got bit by my best friends collie twice in 2 months.. both were my fault.. nothing happened to the dog, i went to the dr, got meds, and came home.. never blamed the dog....


I got bit in the face by my neighbors GSD... I was 6 or 7. Never should have put my face there - all my fault. I had a dog that bit my neighbor in the ass... as he was running across our driveway to go home. Neither dog was aggressive and both lived long and happy lives without another incident - and neither dog deserved to die because of what they did.
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Postby cheekymunkee » June 7th, 2006, 8:19 pm

I got bit all the time by my mom's chi's. I have a scar on my butt cheek from being bit by my friend's GSD. They told me not to run but I did anyway & he nailed me. Scars on my hand from being bit by my neighbor's Siamese cat. If a dog bit or scratched me or knocked me down .....the FIRST question my dad would ask is "what did you do to it?"
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Postby a-bull » June 7th, 2006, 8:26 pm

Maryellen wrote:because now people are sue happy.. when i was young there were alot of dogs in the neighborhood we had to stay away from... i got bit by my best friends collie twice in 2 months.. both were my fault.. nothing happened to the dog, i went to the dr, got meds, and came home.. never blamed the dog....


exactly!! One we avoided was also a collie, ha, ha . . . also a Dobie, and ironically, a Malmute.
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Postby a-bull » June 7th, 2006, 8:31 pm

Sue wrote:
Maryellen wrote:because now people are sue happy.. when i was young there were alot of dogs in the neighborhood we had to stay away from... i got bit by my best friends collie twice in 2 months.. both were my fault.. nothing happened to the dog, i went to the dr, got meds, and came home.. never blamed the dog....


I got bit in the face by my neighbors GSD... I was 6 or 7. Never should have put my face there - all my fault. I had a dog that bit my neighbor in the fanny... as he was running across our driveway to go home. Neither dog was aggressive and both lived long and happy lives without another incident - and neither dog deserved to die because of what they did.


One of my only bites was by a GSD as a kid in the same rear location. The dog was always off lease, but in his yard---we were told to not go in it if the dog was outside and I did anyways . . . and got bit. I shouldn't have gone through the yard.

I bet your parents taught you all about how to behave around dogs, too, huh?? Not many parents now-a-days do---instead your dog should never, ever act like anything other than a bunny rabbit or it should be put to sleep.
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Postby Maximus » June 7th, 2006, 8:33 pm

So, I'm reverting quite a bit because, frankly, this whole discussion about the Mal biter isn't something I'm at all interested in. But I am interested in the fact that the term "no-kill" has become such a hot-hitting, knee-jerk sound byte (no pun intended).

First, there are shelters and there are rescues. Two very different things. And in the best case, I would hope the best rescues are "no-kill," considering they're (presumably) pulling stable, adoptable dogs from shelters after evaluating them, for one thing. And I'm pretty sure the very term "no-kill" is a misnomer. Because shelters can euthanize dogs that don't pass, for example, a behavioral temperament test and NOT count that as a "kill." That's one reason Sternberg's Assess-a-Pet TT is so freaking controversial. It's given shelters across the country this very questionable standard at which to measure all dogs and given them an "out" in killing them without having to admit to it or tarnish their "no-kill" name.
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Postby Maryellen » June 7th, 2006, 8:43 pm

yep, my folks taught me to never go up to a dog without asking the owners permissionto pet it, make sure to never tease adog.(which i was doing as a child when my friends collie bit me, they told me to not stick my hand in the broken screen door , which i did twice,so when i got bit the first thing my dad said was What did you do to the dog??) i must have been 8 or 9 when that happened.. got bit by a cocker when i was in my 20's , dam dog was fine while i was petting it, then it bit me when i stopped... got bit by the neighbors standard poodle too. that dog got me in the butt.. told me not to run, and i didnt listen....
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Postby dogcrazyjen » June 7th, 2006, 8:55 pm

I meant the owner did not warn you the dog would bite. I thought that was fairly clear. Obviously the point of your story was the dog did warn you and you missed it.


I guess what we have here is a basic disagreement as to acceptable dog behavior.

To me it is not acceptable to have biting dogs. I cannot fathom that you are willing to have a dog which bites. I cannot risk it with my kids, my family, with other people. I would euthanize a dog which did what the Mal did if i could not train it otherwise, warning or no warning. To me it is an accident waiting to happen, and it is putting people at risk who have no ability to have a say in the matter. I do not think a dog which is willing to bite its owner or someone leaning over it in a friendly manner when the owner is right there is a well socialized dog who is below the owner in leadership. I am the leader in my home, and as leader I do not accept my dogs putting thier teeth on me or anyone else. Period.

You feel biting is acceptable. Blame the 'victim', not matter what. You feel your dogs are allowed to bite you in play, that it shows drive. That dogs will naturally show their dominance to humans, and that is normal and acceptable dog behavior.

As long as we have this difference in opinion on this, we will have to agree to disagree.
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Postby a-bull » June 7th, 2006, 9:01 pm

Oh man, if we're going down the road of "blame the victim," and slipping into an Introduction to Sociology class, we definitely should just agree to disagree. "Blame the victim" . . . oiy . . .
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Postby Sue » June 7th, 2006, 9:17 pm

a-bull wrote:I bet your parents taught you all about how to behave around dogs, too, huh?? Not many parents now-a-days do---instead your dog should never, ever act like anything other than a bunny rabbit or it should be put to sleep.


Funny, but I don't remember really. I just always had some kind of pet and I always LOVED animals, so I don't know if was nature or nurture :D
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Postby a-bull » June 7th, 2006, 9:24 pm

Sue wrote:
a-bull wrote:I bet your parents taught you all about how to behave around dogs, too, huh?? Not many parents now-a-days do---instead your dog should never, ever act like anything other than a bunny rabbit or it should be put to sleep.


Funny, but I don't remember really. I just always had some kind of pet and I always LOVED animals, so I don't know if was nature or nurture :D


Same here, but I do remember my Mom always telling me not to touch strange dogs, not to touch people's dogs without asking, don't pat a dog on its head, etc.

Of course I didn't always listen. I wasn't a victim though---I was just naughty. :devilWink:
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Postby cheekymunkee » June 7th, 2006, 10:15 pm

Sue wrote:
a-bull wrote:I bet your parents taught you all about how to behave around dogs, too, huh?? Not many parents now-a-days do---instead your dog should never, ever act like anything other than a bunny rabbit or it should be put to sleep.


Funny, but I don't remember really. I just always had some kind of pet and I always LOVED animals, so I don't know if was nature or nurture :D


Sure did!! My dad would tear me a new one for teasing dogs, acting stupid when I was told not to. You should have heard him when that GSD bit me. I remember very clearly the butt chewing I got over it. I deserved it, I was told the dog would bite me if I ran & did it anyway.
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Postby mnp13 » June 7th, 2006, 10:40 pm

dogcrazyjen wrote:I meant the owner did not warn you the dog would bite. I thought that was fairly clear. Obviously the point of your story was the dog did warn you and you missed it.


From my earlier post:
funny, I was the one there and I didn't feel he was irresponsible. He was dealing with an adult (me) I'm sure it didn't occur to him to say "if you put your arm over his head and he makes a sound like he likes the ear rub that's really him communicating that you are challenging him". I didn't get a warning because he probably figured that my brain cells were in the 'on' position. I wasn't warned about the possibility of him biting because who in their right mind thinks someone is going to challenge their dog and ignore the warnings that dog gives?


dogcrazyjen wrote:To me it is not acceptable to have biting dogs.


Oh, and I love them... infact I want ten of them :rolleyes2:

the difference is that dogs are dogs, ignore their warnings and you will get teeth. I don't make black and white statements about dogs anymore. Basic dog behavior has no absolutes.


dogcrazyjen wrote:You feel biting is acceptable. Blame the 'victim', not matter what. You feel your dogs are allowed to bite you in play, that it shows drive.


Oh really? I think biting is acceptable? you're sure about that? I think that there are times when a dog biting is completely understandable. I don't label dogs as "dangerous" for exhibiting behaviors that are inherent in all dogs.

Blame the victim? Give me a break. It's called accountability. The dog is an animal, as a "higher species" it is the responsibility of the humans to be responsible and aware of their surroundings. With the exception of loose dogs attacking people most bites are preventable. Most bites are the fault of the dog/dog owner AND the person bitten.

When did I talk about drive in relation to my dogs? I'm haveing a respect problem with my dominant dog that I am trying to find a solution to. If I thought it was "ok" why would I be finding a solution to it? I don't allow other people to play with him because of how he acts. that is my responsibility. If I tell someone to leave my dog alone and that person goes ahead and plays with him anyway and gets hurt tough luck.

dogcrazyjen wrote:That dogs will naturally show their dominance to humans, and that is normal and acceptable dog behavior.

Wow, twist things a little more why don't you? I have to wonder if you have been reading the same posts I have been writing.

Dogs don't "naturally" show dominance to people. If the do, by giving warnings, etc, and those warnings are not heeded yes, someone may get bit.
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Postby mnp13 » June 7th, 2006, 10:46 pm

Maximus wrote:First, there are shelters and there are rescues. Two very different things. And in the best case, I would hope the best rescues are "no-kill," considering they're (presumably) pulling stable, adoptable dogs from shelters after evaluating them, for one thing.


I think that discussion got started because some rescues will keep a dog in the rescue even when it has begun to exhibit behaviors that make it pretty much unadoptable. the ones that test well, but then "change" when their real personality comes through after being in a home environment for a while. Tons of time, energy and money get invested in a dog that may never be "fixed" instead of putting that dog down and saving another dog that is more readily adoptable.

I know of a few people who have gotten out of rescue because of the "save them all" mentality. Sometimes it's better for all involved to quietly put down a dog that will sit in the foster home for months and months (or years) so that another dog that is just as deserving - and far more adoptable - can be saved.

Maximus wrote:And I'm pretty sure the very term "no-kill" is a misnomer. Because shelters can euthanize dogs that don't pass, for example, a behavioral temperament test and NOT count that as a "kill." That's one reason Sternberg's Assess-a-Pet TT is so freaking controversial. It's given shelters across the country this very questionable standard at which to measure all dogs and given them an "out" in killing them without having to admit to it or tarnish their "no-kill" name.


I'm totally with you on this.
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Postby a-bull » June 7th, 2006, 10:54 pm

knock, knock, knock . . . Michelle . . . they've all gone home . . .

step away from the thread . . . step away from the thread . . .

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Postby mnp13 » June 7th, 2006, 11:02 pm

:door:
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Postby a-bull » June 7th, 2006, 11:06 pm

:cop:
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