Adoptathon

This is where to talk about Pit Bulls!

Postby a-bull » June 7th, 2006, 12:03 pm

I stand corrected . . . I mixed you up with "dogcrazyjen"---you guys post similar. You're right . . . that was actually her comment . . .
DISCLAIMER:

My posts are my own opinions unless otherwise stated. They are not necessarily correct for all dogs or all owners.
a-bull
I live here
 
Posts: 2926

Postby mnp13 » June 7th, 2006, 12:04 pm

Maryellen wrote:if dogs didnt evolve from wolves, then where did they come from? if they didnt evolve from wolves, then the wolf behavior cant be used to compare them can it?


They did evolve from wolves, or some canine that was before modern wolves. However, selective breeding has enhanced other traits that are not readily exhibited in wolves. I thik an example of this would be retreiving - a wolf will carry prey, but they probably aren't playing fetch all that often.

I think wolf behavior can give insight into dog behavior, but using it as an absolute is not accurate. I'm not saying that anyone is right now, but it's just something to think about.
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17232
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby msvette2u » June 7th, 2006, 12:06 pm

I actually find it fascinating to see how many pack traits dogs possess. And wonder why they still need it when we take care of them, pack traits exist in a wolf pack for their own survival, while our pets rely on us to take care of them.
Just pondering. :)
The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.
User avatar
msvette2u
I live here
 
Posts: 6812
Location: Eastern WA

Postby mnp13 » June 7th, 2006, 12:14 pm

msvette2u wrote:OK -- so in this case a working dog, one trained to do bite work would be more inclined to use his teeth? But in a regular situation those are the dogs that don't make it out of the shelter, unless going into a specialized program, correct??


First question - NO. Dogs trained in bitework are less likely to bite, as part of the training is a clear understanding of what a threat is and what it isn't. That is different than dominance.

Second - Yes, a dog that is a biter that is in a shelter or rescue might as well be put down. There are too many dogs that don't bite and don't have major behavorial flaws out there to keep the problem children around. Sure, most can be trained and 'fixed' but why waste the limited resources on a problem child instead of the ones that have a better chance of moving through teh system faster?

msvette2u wrote:I honestly think Yaeger is more dog than a household should own. He's got a huge working drive whatever that means, I mean he thrives on his "almost bite work" and can be almost dangerous to play with, but we love him and tolerate his drive. We were going to send him to police academy but backed out because he IS a good watch/guard dog.
But at the same time, he knows that he cannot display aggression secondary to his need to be dominant. When he was playing with Jeff that day that I snapped some pics, he was actually biting TOWARDS Jeff's shoulder and arm and not the toy itself. But he knows he cannot lay his teeth on us. He was showing alot of inhibition with regards to where his teeth were actually LANDING if not going.


Is he dominant or is he just a snot? Riggs is dominant and currently has no respect for my hands and bites them during play quite frequently. The result is that we don't play until I get help to stop the biting. I can't work on it alone because it's quite hard to correctly deal with the problem with a dog clamped on my hand. He's not aggressive he's just rude. His dominance manifests in other ways, but has not crossed "that line" to an overt challenge to me, he's just a pushy little brat who needs training that is a little more consistant than I am giving him.

I work with alot of K-9 officers, the ones with bite dogs, not drug dogs, and they are ALL "pussycats" who can be petted with the supervision of their handler. The most "unstable" ones I've met tend to be Malinois (whatever the plural is) and they aren't allowed to be petted! The GSD's I've met are all sweethearts and I've interacted with them.

lol I have the opposite opinion of Malinois. Most that I have met are honeys, but the ones that are not are not. Most of it is training.
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17232
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby msvette2u » June 7th, 2006, 12:36 pm

I really don't have an opinion of the Malinois, it's just that the handlers tell me, "You can't pet him (or her)" lol So I figured they must be...not nice!?

Is he dominant or is he just a snot? Riggs is dominant and currently has no respect for my hands and bites them during play quite frequently. The result is that we don't play until I get help to stop the biting.

I think Yaeger is dominant, because he bit my sons' hand the other day, when Tyler went to pick up a toy to throw for him. He left a bruise.
The difference is, with us, he respects us enough to not bite-or he knows if he does accidentally, he's in trouble. He's not an ISSUE or danger, he just grabbed the toy when Tyler did. With us, we put the smackdown on him so he knows he can't get mouthy. He would push with the kids but we stop that when we see it. Tyler happened to be on the other side of the yard at the time.
Yaeger displays a dominance when we go to walk him and he wants to be 1st (remember that thread a while back!?) so yelps. So we have his pinch on him and MAKE him wait then he will turn and "bite" (not hard, just teeth) our leg. He gets disciplined for that too.
We have a "through the door first" battle occasionally, and a "move when I walk by" thing now and again.
He is one dog I can honestly say is afraid of nothing except ME when I'm MAD at him in one of those "come to Jesus" moments.
The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.
User avatar
msvette2u
I live here
 
Posts: 6812
Location: Eastern WA

Postby mnp13 » June 7th, 2006, 12:42 pm

From your description it sounds like that dog is trying to run the house. I'd get a handle on that sooner than later.
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17232
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby msvette2u » June 7th, 2006, 12:46 pm

mnp13 wrote:From your description it sounds like that dog is trying to run the house. I'd get a handle on that sooner than later.


Yeah - we're always aware of it. Like you, we tend to slack more than we should.
But often I walk a step or two OUT of my way to move him ;)
It's a constant thing - always reinforcing status with him. He KNOWS, he just likes to try to take advantage of situations. I'd say he "has tried" to run the house but he definately is not successful.
The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.
User avatar
msvette2u
I live here
 
Posts: 6812
Location: Eastern WA

Postby msvette2u » June 7th, 2006, 12:48 pm

I think what it boils down to, and what alarmed me with the Malamute situation (and having a dominant dog, I am acutely aware of these things) stopping the dominance before it ESCALATES to an aggression. We keep a tight reign on our dog but I can't imagine what a tyrant he'd be if he was in a home that did not, or didn't know you should.
The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.
User avatar
msvette2u
I live here
 
Posts: 6812
Location: Eastern WA

Postby msvette2u » June 7th, 2006, 12:50 pm

And it goes back to this:
http://www.canismajor.com/dog/drives.html

http://www.volhard.com/training/cpp.htm

http://www.volhard.com/training/cpptest3.htm

Your dog's drives
Prey = 65
Pack = 55
Defense - Fight = 65
Defense - Flight = 5

I did Yaeger's drives. Some questions were too "limited" (He never pees when he meets new people)

http://www.digitaldog.com/behaviorintro.html


Yaeger's pack drive also tells him he must fit in and conform and submit to us if he wants to live.
The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.
User avatar
msvette2u
I live here
 
Posts: 6812
Location: Eastern WA

Postby Romanwild » June 7th, 2006, 2:50 pm

Image
User avatar
Romanwild
I live here
 
Posts: 2931
Location: Watertown NY

Postby dogcrazyjen » June 7th, 2006, 3:02 pm

I almost learned this the hard way this weekend. There was a beautiful Malimute. When I was taking pictures he repeatedly came up to me and licked the camera, my face, my hands, leaned on you for attention, etc. I was itching his head and put my arm over him to get the other side. He started makeing the rumbly sound that Pits make when they are enjoying an ear rub. As soon as his owner heard it he wipped around and said "Don't do that!!!!!!" I immediately moved and missed a bite by about 3 inches. His teeth snapped shut just short of my arm. That was 100% my fault for misreading the dog and assuming that Malimutes had the same body language as Pit Bulls.



This dog would have nailed you had you not moved. This dog was out in public, being petted by an unwarned stranger. This is acceptable?


If the dog is a working dog which is unable to deal with people, muzzle it.

I do NOT think that working dogs which are allowed to use aggression to assert their dominance to humans(is that specific and clear enough?) have any place in the public without either a muzzle or an extremely aware owner who keeps it away from people if it must be out(like a k9 officer). I think this man was being very irresponsible. You did not say he gave you a warning prior to touching the dog, and it would have been pertinant to the story if he had, so one has to assume he gave none.


We can discuss terminology all day, which is what this is becoming. In a public place, no aggression in any form towards human beings is safe or should be acceptable. Dominance, fear, possessiveness, protectiveness, aggression stemming from any of these have a place in the public outside of controlled PP demos. If your dog displays these characteristics, it is up to the owner to take responsibility.

If you want a working dog who is a biter, then you have the responsibility to keep it away from the public or muzzle it. I personally cannot see any reason to accept that behavior with the exception of a police swat team dog, who needs to be a loaded weapon for his job. Note those dogs are never out in public off the job. All police dogs I have met were not aggressive because of dominance or other drives, they were PP trained. My dad was a state trooper for 31 years, so I met a few growing up, they were all able to be petted and safe around the public, since part of their job was to police large gatherings, like carnivals and such.

My kids are home, I'll continue this in the morning if anyone is still on this thread. .
dogcrazyjen
Devoutly Bully
 
Posts: 922
Location: FingerLakes NY

Postby Maryellen » June 7th, 2006, 3:56 pm

the dog did give michelll a warning, he was growling/groaning at her, which she interpreted as loving his ear scratched, which wasnt the case... she stated that a few pages back... the dog DID give a warning, she just thought he was enjoying the ear rub with her hand over his back
Maryellen
I live here
 
Posts: 5971

Postby msvette2u » June 7th, 2006, 3:58 pm

Maryellen wrote:the dog did give michelll a warning, he was growling/groaning at her, which she interpreted as loving his ear scratched, which wasnt the case... she stated that a few pages back... the dog DID give a warning, she just thought he was enjoying the ear rub with her hand over his back

I read Jen's post as the MAN did not give Michelle a warning.
The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.
User avatar
msvette2u
I live here
 
Posts: 6812
Location: Eastern WA

Postby msvette2u » June 7th, 2006, 4:01 pm

I think this man was being very irresponsible. You did not say he gave you a warning prior to touching the dog, and it would have been pertinant to the story if he had, so one has to assume he gave none.


"This man" is the qualifier in this paragraph, with "he" in the second sentence being "this man".
The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.
User avatar
msvette2u
I live here
 
Posts: 6812
Location: Eastern WA

Postby msvette2u » June 7th, 2006, 4:13 pm

psst...I meant "subject" not qualifier :oops:

gosh it's been a long time since h. s. !
The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.
User avatar
msvette2u
I live here
 
Posts: 6812
Location: Eastern WA

Postby a-bull » June 7th, 2006, 5:28 pm

msvette2u wrote:I actually find it fascinating to see how many pack traits dogs possess. And wonder why they still need it when we take care of them, pack traits exist in a wolf pack for their own survival, while our pets rely on us to take care of them.
Just pondering. :)


I find it interesting, too . . .
DISCLAIMER:

My posts are my own opinions unless otherwise stated. They are not necessarily correct for all dogs or all owners.
a-bull
I live here
 
Posts: 2926

Postby a-bull » June 7th, 2006, 5:29 pm

Romanwild wrote:Image


lmao . . .
DISCLAIMER:

My posts are my own opinions unless otherwise stated. They are not necessarily correct for all dogs or all owners.
a-bull
I live here
 
Posts: 2926

Postby a-bull » June 7th, 2006, 5:31 pm

Maryellen wrote:the dog did give michelll a warning, he was growling/groaning at her, which she interpreted as loving his ear scratched, which wasnt the case... she stated that a few pages back... the dog DID give a warning, she just thought he was enjoying the ear rub with her hand over his back


I tried to explain that . . . good luck . . . :)

:tmi:
DISCLAIMER:

My posts are my own opinions unless otherwise stated. They are not necessarily correct for all dogs or all owners.
a-bull
I live here
 
Posts: 2926

Postby cheekymunkee » June 7th, 2006, 5:35 pm

:backRoll: :backRoll:
There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.

Debby
User avatar
cheekymunkee
I Have Your Grass
 
Posts: 28540
Location: Dallas

Postby mnp13 » June 7th, 2006, 6:09 pm

dogcrazyjen wrote:This dog would have nailed you had you not moved. This dog was out in public, being petted by an unwarned stranger. This is acceptable?


Yup. It is. Why? because sometimes crap happens. I was the one who was almost injured and I take full responsibility for what happened. I was there I experienced what happened. The error was mine. Period.


dogcrazyjen wrote:I think this man was being very irresponsible. You did not say he gave you a warning prior to touching the dog, and it would have been pertinant to the story if he had, so one has to assume he gave none.


funny, I was the one there and I didn't feel he was irresponsible. He was dealing with an adult (me) I'm sure it didn't occur to him to say "if you put your arm over his head and he makes a sound like he likes the ear rub that's really him communicating that you are challenging him". I didn't get a warning because he probably figured that my brain cells were in the 'on' position. I wasn't warned about the possibility of him biting because who in their right mind thinks someone is going to challenge their dog and ignore the warnings that dog gives?

What that dog did is 100% normal dog behavior. His owner had nothing to apologize for.
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17232
Location: Rochester, NY

PreviousNext

Return to Pit Bull Talk

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

cron