Some people are NOT helping... (long)

This is where to talk about Pit Bulls!

Postby Pitcrew » June 3rd, 2006, 7:04 pm

I just came back from a small ... dogfest of sorts, near downtown Syracuse.
Found alot of pitbull friendly people. The owners of Dog Daze Bakery, who put on the event are proud pitbull owners (2), and planned the event, were very nice.
I brought Libby for a little socializing, and brought fliers to hand out for our Bull-ympics.
Met a guy there (I have seen him around before) with a BIG pit. Now mind you, my Luke is almost 22" and about 65 lbs. and this dog had at least 10 lbs. on him! AND HE WAS ONLY 6 MONTHS OLD!
His dogs appeared to have very nice, friendly temperaments. No argument there. He seemed to be trying to promote the breed... I guess... I listened to him talk about his dogs short crop being the cheapest he has gotten at $350, his other dogs "ears cost him $600" (funny, my dogs ears were free, and came with the dog).
NO, I am not trying to start an anti crop thread... its just what this guy was talking about and I couldnt resist the sarcasm.
I also heard him bragging that they were American Pits, and how that was different than Am Staffs... I dont know how he could differentiate since to look at his dogs, it appears he hasnt read the standard in quite some time. Work them, show them, health test them, I dont think so. Breed them, yes... apparently often.
The guy then disappeared and came back with 3, 4 week old puppies! Now I consider this a peddler! He may not have been selling them, or placing them at this age, I heard him tell someone they coudnt go home for a couple weeks, but they shouldnt even have been in that environment!
Then he left, after padlocking the puppies crate, and came beck with a large male (presumably the father). Now, he is a friendly dog, and was behaved, but on a 3 inch thick collar and heavy leash, he was pulling the owner from person to person and dog to dog.
My problem is, while watching at a distance, I saw many people steering clear of this guy and his dog. Yes, I'm sure part of this is the pitbull thing... but I think alot of people with big friendly dogs are blissfully unaware of how a large dog PULLING towards you appears to people. Its intimidating! And if its a BSL breed, it doesnt help their image!
I know, I know... that is the image some people want.
But friendly or not, some of the people and dogs he was forcibly visiting, were NOT interested. This is not good PR. Its also a good way to start a fight. A dog growling or snapping at the unwanted attention... people turn and see a pitbull pulling on his leash at other dogs. It doesnt matter he didnt do anything... thats not what people see. I was at a distance to hear the comments. Its hard to defend. He seemed like a nice guy, but he is not doing his breeds (he has Am Bulls too) any favor. Friendly isnt enough.
No... I didnt talk to him much. A little when he first got there. But after listening awhile I thought it would be like talking to a wall.
My patience and political correctness were wearing thin.

I guess I am just on ultra-defense after a "viscous pitbull at large" in Cicero, was in the news yesterday.
I am just too mad to watch the news or read the paper.
They didnt say where, how or why this man was bitten. No one has apparently SEEN the dog (before or since) or knows if its a stray or if someone owns it... or if its REALLY a pit, for that matter. Just that its black with white.
The news channel had alot of footage of the area, as if they had been there awhile hoping to see some carnage. Made a big deal about how school children are being accompanied as they walk to buses, even there no one had seen the dog.
As an after-thought they added it may have an injury to its jaw.

Now maybe its just what I want to believe... but has anyone considered that this man may have been abusing the dog and caused the injury to his jaw and therefore the bite, and then the dog was turned loose or escaped?
I just dont think whatever happened, pit or not, the truth will never come out... even if they knew.
That headline was just too good.

Charles! Help!
Probably have the same crap you had in Watertown, going on down here now. I cant even get up the guts to call and find out the facts (if there are any) from animal control.
I can handle emergencies, and blood and guts, calm and collected. But I'm not so confident about calmly dealing with media, or people who think they love the breed they are doing a disservice to.

Sorry for venting.

I'm done now.
"Pedigree indicates what the animal should be;
Conformation indicates what the animal appears to be;
But, Performance indicates what the animal actually is."
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Postby Romanwild » June 3rd, 2006, 8:06 pm

Damn!

There should be a club in SYR. You guys have more problems then we do.

Let me know if I can help.
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Postby Fear_the_Sheeple » June 3rd, 2006, 8:08 pm

What an idiot. I really think people can be just that dense.

Loved your comment about the ears. lol

Isn't it bad for puppies to be exposed to all those other dogs at such a young age? :o
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Postby Patch O' Pits » June 3rd, 2006, 9:21 pm

Sounds like a frustrating day to say the least!
Hnag in there!

Fear_the_Sheeple wrote:What an idiot. I really think people can be just that dense.

Loved your comment about the ears. lol

Isn't it bad for puppies to be exposed to all those other dogs at such a young age? :o


I agree what an idiot. Unfortuntely it seems some just don't know any better and are completely ignorant. Even when I feel like I'm talking to the wall I hope that something sinks in w/ people like that.

I too love the ear comment :clap:

Yes, it is bad for pups that age to be at a public event with lots of dogs. Puppies should not be out like that until completely vaccinated.
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Postby Pitcrew » June 3rd, 2006, 9:25 pm

Puppies that age? No shots, and it was quite cool and damp (raining all day, maybe in the 60's). STUPID!

Dont know Charles... havent herd any major crap yet... hoping it will roll off... maybe if I take my fingers out of my ears and stop saying la, la, la la, la, la.
I dont know if I can do the club thing. I am kind of anti-club... but I know it could do good things. Yours has.

Yea, that dogs crop was one if those super short fighting type crops you see on Neo's... didnt help the dog was blue.

Ita not ALL about the size...
or the color, or the crop... but you put them all together it says FAD.
They werent really even a reasonable example of a pit in my opinion.
I dont have a problem with variety if types within the breeds, but these dogs didnt have TYPE.
I love ALL bullies... but a "breeder" should do better. All pups dont grow up to be beauties, but that look / size seems to be what he wants... and I dont like it. I dont know that I could swear that they isnt AB mix in background.
"Pedigree indicates what the animal should be;
Conformation indicates what the animal appears to be;
But, Performance indicates what the animal actually is."
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Postby Patch O' Pits » June 3rd, 2006, 9:31 pm

Lisa wrote:Yea, that dogs crop was one if those super short fighting type crops you see on Neo's... didnt help the dog was blue.

Ita not ALL about the size...
or the color, or the crop... but you put them all together it says FAD.
They werent really even a reasonable example of a pit in my opinion.
I dont have a problem with variety if types within the breeds, but these dogs didnt have TYPE.
I love ALL bullies... but a "breeder" should do better. All pups dont grow up to be beauties, but that look / size seems to be what he wants... and I dont like it. I dont know that I could swear that they isnt AB mix in background.

NeoXPits seem to be popping up alot IMO from the look of some of the dogs I've seen :nono:
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Postby Cuda » June 8th, 2006, 11:40 am

Lisa wrote:Ita not ALL about the size...
or the color, or the crop... but you put them all together it says FAD.
They werent really even a reasonable example of a pit in my opinion.
I dont have a problem with variety if types within the breeds, but these dogs didnt have TYPE.
I love ALL bullies... but a "breeder" should do better. All pups dont grow up to be beauties, but that look / size seems to be what he wants... and I dont like it. I dont know that I could swear that they isnt AB mix in background.


Okay so the guy wasnt the brightest dude in America and he most def shouldnt have been breeding the pups from the sound of you description. BUT why does it have to be a FAD thing if the guy has a BIG BLUE? I myself have a BIGGG blue, probably one of the biggest pitties on this forum at just a tad under 100lbs. Is it a fad thing? NO! I wanted 3 things when i got my dog. A Blue cause ive loved the color ever since i saw my first one. A big dog, just cause i love big dogs i can wrestle with and lay my head on when i choose to. And lastly i wanted a pittie. Having been around them for almost 20 years and had own 2 already it had to be a pittie.
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Postby Malli » June 8th, 2006, 1:25 pm

But are you breeding your big blue dog Cuda? I think that may be the issue.


On that note, all these super large pits and crosses etc I see, sometimes I wonder why people don't just get another breed. Because at some point, that oversized x-lrg dog could just as well be a Cane Corso, Boer Boel, etc etc etc.

Keep in mind, this is all coming from the owner of an 80 lb, tall and long Brindle APBT/AmStaff *possibly* with some AmBull a few generations back.


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Postby Cuda » June 8th, 2006, 1:58 pm

Malli wrote:But are you breeding your big blue dog Cuda? I think that may be the issue.


On that note, all these super large pits and crosses etc I see, sometimes I wonder why people don't just get another breed. Because at some point, that oversized x-lrg dog could just as well be a Cane Corso, Boer Boel, etc etc etc.

Keep in mind, this is all coming from the owner of an 80 lb, tall and long Brindle APBT/pit bull wanna be *possibly* with some AmBull a few generations back.


Malli


Well its quite possible that i may breed him in the future. All depends on how he does with his training, titles and competitions, and of course finding a comparable female.

And the reason I personally didnt get another breed is i didnt want a breed that was a guardian breed or a herding breed with natural aloofness and guarding bred into it. Now granted from the size of my dog its hard to tell if it has any other breeds in there which may be completly possible, BUT i do know both his parents are UKC PR's and DNA-VIP's.
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Postby Pitcrew » June 11th, 2006, 9:14 pm

My personal opinion on size is with most breeds, people seem to want to breed them bigger and bigger.
Labs, for their original intent and purpose were NOT supposed to be 100 lbs. ... neither were shepherds, goldens, or pits.
Bigger is not necessarily better.
There is a natural variation in size with any breed. There is an average... with pits its about 45 - 65 lbs. There are "pocket pits" which do occur in the 20-40 lb. range... and the bigger 70-80 pounders that also happen.
But breeding for the dogs that are substantially outside of the standard in my opinion is breeding to supply a fad market. As is, breeding exclusively for a particular color that is popular.
I have a blue dog. I got him for who he is, not his color... although I do like his color. I also have a dog who is over standard, a rescue who couldnt be much further from the standard, and a champion. I love them all for what they are. I dont breed.
If I did, and decided to breed either of those individuals I would want them to be a superior specimen in health, temperament and working ability. Also, if I were breeding a registered dog I would also breed not only to an equal quality female who does NOT double up on the trait that goes outside the BREED STANDARD.
For my oversized dog I would chose a smaller female to balance out the size of the pups... rather than to intentionally produce dogs well outside the norm.
For my blue, I would breed to a non-blue dog (preferably to a black or black brindle) to maintain pigment, and if I wanted to produce blue dogs the bitch should have blue in her background. Since color is of the least importance to me that would not be a primary consideration.
I called this guy a fad breeder because I feel he is breeding for superficial characteristics which in his case, especially (but not only) because of size, are against breed type. His dogs are NOT readily recognizable as pitbulls... even big ones.
A fad breeding is taking something unusual about a breed, size or color, and producing and marketing based on that superficial, unusual trait. "Giant" Pits... "rare" blues... Neither trait, is particularly bad or undesirable, but you shouldnt breed PRIMARILY on those traits! Head size and weight should not be major selling points or stud criteria.
Nothing against big dogs... but if you are going to call yourself a breeder, choose a breed, responsibly breed good examples... or dont.
If I wanted a BIG dog of a bull type, there are over a dozen to chose from who are SUPPOSED to be that size. If I want a big pit, I guess I can look for one and find one... but to breed FOR that, is against the breed standard, and I feel is only to fill a market.
A good breeder knows, loves, and seeks to improve and protect their breed. Not change and distort it, or create their own version.
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Conformation indicates what the animal appears to be;
But, Performance indicates what the animal actually is."
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Postby Cuda » June 12th, 2006, 10:33 am

Hi Lisa, the following post isnt meant as a rebuttle for your post as it made some great points. Its just me throwing out some thoughts for discussion.

I understand exactly where you are coming from and can agree with alot of it. I guess it just gets me ticked that whenever people on the forums talk about big blue's the word fad just pops right in there. Also if i remeber correctly the breed standard doesnt specifiy size only proportions. (correct?)

Although i think the size/color conversation has been BEATEN TO DEATH on the forums (on the others much more so than here) it just seems that fad is the wrong word to use for it. There seems to be a demand for these larger dogs(all breeds). Thats quite apparent from the prices these breeders are getting for the dogs. Although im not proud of the price i paid for Cuda (outrageously high compared to what ive seen titled and health tested dogs going for) I would do it all over again in a second (in my best Cher impression) "If i could roll back time" :) And demand is where different breeds have been started and evolved from(maybe the wrong choice of word since evolution suggests something completely different than what has actually happened).

How many people would happily give up the dog aggressiveness of the breed if they could keep all the other traits we love so much about them. In an era where dog fighting is illegal and only the bootyhole idiot schmucks are still participating in it i think we could happily lose that trait.

I dont know i just get defensive when someone calls my big mushy boy a fad (goes and cries in a corner j/k) :)

Bye Bye for now all
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Postby mnp13 » June 12th, 2006, 10:56 am

I think the major downfall of the standards of the AKC, UKC and ADBA is that they don't have height and weight listed in the standard. Many otehr breeds do, and the APBT should as well.

"Height in proportion to weight" means nothing. Fatties are put up with alarming regularity. These dogs are the pinnicle of the dog world as athletes. Regardless of structure, if a dog looks like it can't get to the mailbox without needing a rest then that dog does not deserve to be put up.

They no longer belong in the pit, but they should look like they could perform there.
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Postby Cuda » June 12th, 2006, 11:00 am

mnp13 wrote:I think the major downfall of the standards of the AKC, UKC and ADBA is that they don't have height and weight listed in the standard. Many otehr breeds do, and the APBT should as well.

"Height in proportion to weight" means nothing. Fatties are put up with alarming regularity. These dogs are the pinnicle of the dog world as athletes. Regardless of structure, if a dog looks like it can't get to the mailbox without needing a rest then that dog does not deserve to be put up.

They no longer belong in the pit, but they should look like they could perform there.


Oh i agree completely the dogs from muglestons look like big ass kegs and shouldnt be bred for anything but taste testing dog foods. but there are alot of big pitties out there that are pretty damn athletic.
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Postby Pitcrew » June 12th, 2006, 10:31 pm

Thanks Bryan. I appreciate your point of view and agree with you. Thanks for not being defensive, as I meant no insult to Cuda.

I have NOTHING against blue or big pitties, all colors are allowed. I like a good balanced working type bully. Period.
Its not about size/color, its about responsibly breeding and representing the breed... and he wasnt.
I guess my real point was... it wasnt that this guy was breeding big pits or blue pits, or big blue pits... they were incredibly ugly dogs, with NO type. They didnt look like pits, they didnt look like ABs, they were incredibly poor examples, other than temperament, and the size and color were the only traits I could see he was breeding for. IF they were registered, they certainly werent being shown. They would have been laughed out of any registries ring.
I have, and have had, dogs that werent correct or typy, and maybe even ugly, or an unusual color. I love them and would not sell them at ANY price... but no matter how wonderful they were I didnt breed them. They were not the complete package. As much as there were people who love the color, or personality, or something...

I just get frustrated.

I see people every day who want to breed Fluffy (or Spike) because they love them and want one like him. I have had 9 dogs in my life (6 bullies) and have been very fortunate to have had WONDERFUL dogs. I have had very close contact with many of my dogs relatives and have NOT found related dogs to be any more similar than non-related dogs in the characteristics I desire, physically or mentally. Which is why, although I admire some lines, breeders (Patch O :wink: ), or dogs, I dont stick to anything exclusively. I just look for what I want at any given time. Which is not always the same, and not always perfection.
In my opinion a breeder should have a goal, to work towards perfection, an ideal... not the almighty dollar. They have a certain responsibility to the future owners of the puppies they create, and the puppies themselves.

My pet peeve is when superficial characteristics like size or color are pulling ridiculous prices, without the health tests and working titles to back it up. I dont believe a dog is worth any more than the breeder has invested in the time, training, tests in the parents. But BYBs get top dollar (or better) with NO investment whatsoever! I love my blue boy... but he was not worth more (nor did his breeder charge more) than his black, patched, or brindle siblings.
Although I have been lucky enough NOT to pay these prices for my dogs. If I had it, I would pay it, for the dog I wanted. I cant fault you for that.

Perhaps fad IS the wrong word. I am at a loss for a better one. Its not the dogs that are the fad (especially not Cuda :D ) its the mentality. Its a people problem. Isnt everything? All breeds suffer a similar problem in some form. Chocolate Labs, white Boxers, Bronze Newfs, blue Dobes, etc. I know we cant change what the wrong type of popularity does to breeds... not to mention the Labradoodles, Golden doodles, Puggles, and other fad (for lack of a better word) poodle and other crosses (NO, I'm not gonna go there!).

I developed, over the years, an ideal. That ideal was a combination of traits, (mind, body and drive) that was the perfect apbt/ast for me. These were things I saw in my first 2 ASTs. If I could have cloned certain things from each of them (mentally and physically) into the perfect dog, thats what I was looking for and somehow, by luck or chance, I got with Vegas. She is a champion now, but I am not going to breed her. Why? I am not interested in what it takes. I know where to get another good dog, and quite frankly, I dont think I can easily find 12 homes good enough for my babies. I would keep them all.
The 2 dogs i have gotten since her did not need to meet the same criteria, one a rescue, the other a pet and packmate... but the next dog (no plans in near future) will have to fill another niche.
The breeders of all of my dogs have had to meet a particular requirements, which have changed over the years. #1 thing is that the dogs come first.

About giving up dog aggression... I dont think that needs to define the breed. I dont think people understand dogs or aggression well enough to define or control it properly. I am not going to say none of my dogs have never been, or shown aggression towards another dog, but I dont consider them dog aggressive. I also dont expect them to socialize with any dog they meet.
I have not had any real dog aggression in any of my dogs and they live together (4), and are chosen and trained based on their temperament and personality to keep the harmony. (NO, they are not left together unsupervised...) Keeping my dogs as a social pack is a very serious commitment, I do not take lightly.

Please forgive the harp and rant. Monday... long day at work.

Michelle... oh how you forget how close some peoples mailboxes are to the door. :D
"Pedigree indicates what the animal should be;
Conformation indicates what the animal appears to be;
But, Performance indicates what the animal actually is."
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Postby mnp13 » June 12th, 2006, 10:57 pm

Lisa wrote:Michelle... oh how you forget how close some peoples mailboxes are to the door. :D


lol

my mail actually comes directly into my front hall.
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