What constitutes the theft of an "idea" or "design"?

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Postby mnp13 » January 29th, 2011, 8:25 pm

Like I said, I can strip just about anything from a photo - comes with the territory of my job. Noel, please email it to me and I'll take care of it so it can be posted.
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Postby sfbullygirl » January 29th, 2011, 8:33 pm

DemoDick wrote:
sfbullygirl wrote:
Hoyden wrote:There is identifying information in every shot that I took of this collar. When the collar comes back, I will remove the identifying information and post it.

I promised my client that I would keep them out of this because they don't want to deal with confrontational PM's from people again. I don't agree with them, I feel that they should forward all those messages to the moderator so that the offender can be dealt with but I will respect their request.



why can you not strip the information from the picture..I assume you mean in the EXIF, which can be removed? if it is in an around the collar itself that can be photoshopped out

Who harrassed your client...how would anyone know this? or was this for something other than this?

in any event I wanted to make sure I was not backing the wrong horse here so I checked Rebecca's IP address in her emails to me..and it is not even close to the one you have which makes me still believe that she is telling the truth.


At this point I get the feeling that there is no evidence you would accept as conclusive proof of anything you didn't want to believe.

Demo Dick




not true...I know some of the background on the stories aside from this issue with Noel..and there are always three sides to a story his/her side -his/her side and the truth...and there is other information regarding those issues that is not my place to tell. Just because Noel wrote a good story does not make it true.

I verified the IP address for my own sake, if I thought Rebecca did this I would not be defending her in the least as I think that it would have been wrong..but I am not going to just believe what either of them are saying with out checking it out..and THAT is not Rebecca's IP address

The same could be said for you with Noel...you are choosing to believe her side and that is fine you are her friend, I choose to dig a bit deeper when I can, and as I have said if I am wrong then I would apologize for sticking up for Rebecca.

Noel is not innocent either, she has copied other peoples work mine included, but I never got my panties in a wad because I think competition is a good thing it breeds creativity..but I truely believe that Noel thinks that Rebecca took this design and it hurt what ever business relationship she has with a client..so if that is the case then she should pursue this with legal representation and investogators to get to the facts..not spin stories on forums.
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Postby DemoDick » January 29th, 2011, 8:50 pm

sfbullygirl wrote:The same could be said for you with Noel...you are choosing to believe her side and that is fine you are her friend, I choose to dig a bit deeper when I can, and as I have said if I am wrong then I would apologize for sticking up for Rebecca.


What the hell are you talking about? I have repeatedly stated IN THIS THREAD that I do not have enough info to make my mind up, and that it is something that will have to be settled via attorneys. Do you even read posts that you respond to? Or are you using the Force to read my mind or something? I'll repeat it: Noel might very well be out of line and I accept that possibility. If I saw a bunch of evidence in this thread reflecting poorly on her, I wouldn't just close my eyes and say it's been faked or something.

Noel is not innocent either, she has copied other peoples work mine included, but I never got my panties in a wad...


Ah, now I see what's going on. :) Don't forget, I own products from everyone in this discussion (except Paco's collars). At this point, based on my experience the only collars that I will continue to purchase are Noel's and Brad's, based on quality alone.

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Postby sfbullygirl » January 29th, 2011, 8:53 pm

DemoDick wrote:
sfbullygirl wrote:The same could be said for you with Noel...you are choosing to believe her side and that is fine you are her friend, I choose to dig a bit deeper when I can, and as I have said if I am wrong then I would apologize for sticking up for Rebecca.


What the hell are you talking about? I have repeatedly stated IN THIS THREAD that I do not have enough info to make my mind up, and that it is something that will have to be settled via attorneys. Do you even read posts that you respond to? Or are you using the Force to read my mind or something? I'll repeat it: Noel might very well be out of line and I accept that possibility. If I saw a bunch of evidence in this thread reflecting poorly on her, I wouldn't just close my eyes and say it's been faked or something.

Noel is not innocent either, she has copied other peoples work mine included, but I never got my panties in a wad...


Ah, now I see what's going on. :) Don't forget, I own products from everyone in this discussion (except Paco's collars). At this point, based on my experience the only collars that I will continue to purchase are Noel's and Brad's, based on quality alone.

Demo Dick




using your usual tactic to say I am not reading your posts correctly...I read them your support is on the side of Noel and her" evidence", and that is fine, she is your friend I would expect that.

I am glad you are happy with her collars may have a long and happy relationship
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Postby Hoyden » January 29th, 2011, 8:54 pm

Lisa - Given your bias on this matter, I will not answer any of your questions nor will I provide any of the information that you have requested until I receive a subpoena. My attorneys have informed me that they are monitoring this thread with popcorn.

Had you asked me prior to this about how IP info is monitored on my site, I would have been happy to share that and almost any other information with you. I actually enjoy helping, sharing information and teaching others. I don't jealously guard or hoard information, although after this, I may very start.

As for any work that you claim I have copied, please share. You may do it here or email me at hoyden2894@gmail.com. Either way, any and all communication will be forwarded to my attorney.

If anyone asks me to copy another collar makers work, I flat out refuse. Instead, I work with them to figure out what they like and build from there.
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Postby sfbullygirl » January 29th, 2011, 9:03 pm

Wow your attorney sit on forums at 5:00 on a Saturday with popcorn...you must pay them well .

I never expected to see a picture of the collar anyway, but thought I would ask since I wanted to see the work she was accused of stealing since the details were so freely distributed I did not think the evidence would be a problem.

no mind on the IP information Rebecca can just call edirecthost themselves and ask them how and if that can be done.

In terms of copied work I am happy to email you about and you can do with it as you wish...I do not have a problem with it as I said, it was just ironic to me.
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Postby mnp13 » January 29th, 2011, 9:10 pm

Hoyden wrote:If anyone asks me to copy another collar makers work, I flat out refuse. Instead, I work with them to figure out what they like and build from there.

Yeah, two times you've pissed me off. When I asked you to make me a farmhand because you owed me a collar, and when I asked you to make me a ring belt because you owed me another collar. I don't like "no" for an answer. *scowl* I now have the farmhand (which I adore) I just don't have the belt yet...

And Lisa, if I find out Noel has been blowing smoke up my ass on this, no worries, I'll come clean... and it will be ugly, and it will be public. I'm a lot of things, but I'm not a liar.
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Postby DemoDick » January 29th, 2011, 9:17 pm

sfbullygirl wrote:using your usual tactic to say I am not reading your posts correctly...I read them your support is on the side of Noel and her" evidence", and that is fine, she is your friend I would expect that.


I promise you there were multiple facepalms in internetland when people read this, even people who dislike me. My posts in this thread have been crystal clear. I cannot be any more explicit than I already have and will not spend any more time trying to explain things to you. You are too in love with straw men to actually read my posts and respond to their content for me to waste any more of my time trying to get you up to speed on things. You see what you want to see, and that is painfully evident.

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Postby Hoyden » January 29th, 2011, 9:19 pm

It's 8:13 PM here on the East Coast.

The four feet of snow we've had since Christmas took out the satellite dish on their house and they are home with a sick kid.

The pictures can not be edited because a photographer took them for me with props that will identify the client. I don't have permission to edit them. I already called the photographer to see if he will edit them, but I haven't heard back. It is, as you pointed out, Saturday night. I am sure he has better things to do.
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Postby sfbullygirl » January 29th, 2011, 9:22 pm

oy vay

time for dinner and movie..I think a comedy, maybe a love story... I have had enough drama for today :)
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Postby cheekymunkee » January 29th, 2011, 10:19 pm

Hoyden wrote:There is identifying information in every shot that I took of this collar. When the collar comes back, I will remove the identifying information and post it.

I promised my client that I would keep them out of this because they don't want to deal with confrontational PM's from people again. I don't agree with them, I feel that they should forward all those messages to the moderator so that the offender can be dealt with but I will respect their request.

Hoyden wrote:It's 8:13 PM here on the East Coast.

The four feet of snow we've had since Christmas took out the satellite dish on their house and they are home with a sick kid.

The pictures can not be edited because a photographer took them for me with props that will identify the client. I don't have permission to edit them. I already called the photographer to see if he will edit them, but I haven't heard back. It is, as you pointed out, Saturday night. I am sure he has better things to do.



Captain Obvious reporting for duty again:

Wait..........what? Which is it? You said you took them, now you say you did not. This is all making less & less sense to me. I have no interest in this fight except that my curiosity is peaked and I too would like to see the proof as so far there has not been ANY.

Also I am surprised if your attorney is watching this thread ( mine charges $300 an hour with a 1 hour minimum just to pick up the phone on my case) he hasnt hit the roof for you posting about it on a very public forum. Mine would have reamed my ass AND charged me to do it. Just sayin'..........
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Postby Hoyden » January 29th, 2011, 11:24 pm

I am doing what I am told, in protest. I don't like it. I am angry about it. But I am not going to be able to stand in front of him and lie to him if I do what he told me not do do.

I made it clear to him that I was going to post something, he stipulated that I clear what I would post with him first that's why it wasn't posted yesterday.

When I said "every shot that I took of this collar" I am referring to TAKE as in selected from his images generated by this shoot. I should have phrased that differently, but I am overtired, over emotional and should have shut up a long time ago.

I am already in the dog house with them because I didn't clear a few things, I step out of bounds again, I loose council.
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Postby Rossignol » January 30th, 2011, 10:58 am

My 2 cents here, in regard to something I often hear (or see typed as it were), is there is only so much you can do with a collar. There is only so much inovation with leather and metal. If it can be done, its been done.


I strongly disagree. Creativity is a funny thing. Some nights are totally sleepless because there are thoughts and images running through your mind of things you want to do. Someone said it seems like everyone on here is making collars these days. If creativity, inovation, and invention is dead, there would be I think, far fewer people doin it. Competition would also be dead. Someone who is often over looked is Henry of Mojave Leather. Take a look at his stuff if you want a totally refreshing view of originality. Many of us could stand to pay a little more attention. It isnt always about a new design, sometimes its about making an old design better, do it better and more hard core than its ever been done before. Everyone has a signature in their design, a thing that is almost always repeated, a theme, something you look at and is instantly recognized as being unique to that maker even without a makers mark. Sometimes its the fine detail that seperates us. Quality will speak for its self, and if you have it, everyone else will speak of your quality. (that can be good or bad) I strive and push myself to be competitive, some days are harder than others, and settling for complacency and good enough, is never enough.

If I may quote the often profound AC/DC, "I tell ya folks, its harder than it looks. Its a long way to the top, if you wanna rock and roll."

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Postby sfbullygirl » January 30th, 2011, 12:51 pm

I would like to say that yesterday I indicated that Noel had copied something I thought to be an original idea of mine and after discussing it with her last night she indicated where she had seen it before I made it. This was unknown to me and unverified, but I am taking her at her word. Therefore I want to make sure it is known that she did not copy something of mine and I would not like that accusation to be wrongly put out there.

My apologies Noel

I hope this drama can be put to rest and Noel and Rebecca can reach a conclusion to this issue and go on with both of their quality work as the dog world suffers without their creativity in it, and there are enough dog necks out there for everyone.

Good post as well Brad.
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Postby Patch O' Pits » January 30th, 2011, 3:15 pm

BigDogBuford wrote:I'm very confused and clearly I've missed the drama llama again.

When it comes to making leather dog collars you've got two things in common: leather and metal studs. It seems to me that there are a finite number of patterns that you can do. You've got two artistic individuals working with the same materials. Is it so shocking that you may see repetitive stuff?


I agree....
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Postby ParisStreetPitCrew » January 30th, 2011, 6:19 pm

I have refrained from this debate, as I have not much interest in it. However, being an artist (although I rarely call myself that), I HAVE had someone here online take an idea of mine and start selling it. I was hurt and upset but didn't "own" the idea and finally concluded to myself that mine were better quality and whoever felt the same would still come to me to have their work done.

So, I give kudos to Brad here, in his response about quality. In my opinion on these "collar wars", QUALITY will speak volumes. I do think, however, that my opinion of the makers' may have been impacted. So.. while quality is top in my opinion, professionalism does play an important factor in who I support with my hard-earned money.
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Postby BullyLady » January 30th, 2011, 6:22 pm

ParisStreetPitCrew wrote:I do think, however, that my opinion of the makers' may have been impacted. So.. while quality is top in my opinion, professionalism does play an important factor in who I support with my hard-earned money.


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Postby Michele » January 31st, 2011, 8:34 pm

I know Rebecca and I will tell you one thing. She does not STEAL!! She doesn't have to. She is a very talented artist that does amazing work.

Hoyden: I know you and I know that you are a liar. And this goes way back to Mr. Eric from Smilin Pit Bull Rescue.

You are jealous. That's what it comes down to. Instead of bad mouthing another artist, why don't you try to learn from them. This is about the dogs, not about your insecurity issues.
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Postby DemoDick » January 31st, 2011, 9:04 pm

Michele wrote:I know Rebecca and I will tell you one thing. She does not STEAL!! She doesn't have to. She is a very talented artist that does amazing work.

Hoyden: I know you and I know that you are a liar. And this goes way back to Mr. Eric from Smilin Pit Bull Rescue.

You are jealous. That's what it comes down to. Instead of bad mouthing another artist, why don't you try to learn from them. This is about the dogs, not about your insecurity issues.


If you're going to cast your lot with Eric then your judgement on any matter, at any time, is less than worthless.

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Postby cheekymunkee » January 31st, 2011, 9:30 pm

Alright guys, this is getting ridiculous. Personal attacks are not allowed on this board & I do not want to see another one posted. The tone of this thread by the parties involved has remained civil and I expect it to stay that way.

Demo, Michelle is NOT siding with Eric, that isnt what her post is saying.

Carry on.......still waiting for evidence.......
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