Me no likey!

This is where to talk about Pit Bulls!

Postby Megumi-Oni » October 14th, 2009, 4:31 pm

**edited** Please post quotes from the thread, copy / paste sections... etc. We prefer not to send people onto other people's forums directly. :wink: If you need help doing it drop me a PM. -- Michelle

Check out this thread.

I don't like how these people think they're doing advocacy a favor by saying "yeah, my dog's gonna attack something so I avoid social contact all together and carry a break stick."

I'm like... WTF!... really? How can you advocate for something you're not willing to put out in public? How is the public supposed to feel better about the breed, and believe in the advocacy, if you're too scared to bring the animal TO THE PUBLIC!!??

Someone please tell me I'm not crazy before I explode.

:doh:
Megumi-Oni
Just Whelped
 
Posts: 57

Postby Dan+Bec13 » October 14th, 2009, 4:41 pm

Hey man. I'm new to the forum here, but I used to be over at that one. All I am going to say is that you probably won't get the best information over there and if you keep arguing with people you're gonna find your "connection" has slowed down and eventually not be able to post. Be careful what you say over there and in my opinion just stay off that forum.

I'm not trying to stir up anything here, I know how people feel about that "rescue". I just wanted to give a heads up to another new member here on Pit Bull Talk.
Dan+Bec13
Just Whelped
 
Posts: 42
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby DemoDick » October 14th, 2009, 4:45 pm

Megumi-Oni wrote:Check out this thread.

I don't like how these people think they're doing advocacy a favor by saying "yeah, my dog's gonna attack something so I avoid social contact all together and carry a break stick."

I'm like... WTF!... really? How can you advocate for something you're not willing to put out in public? How is the public supposed to feel better about the breed, and believe in the advocacy, if you're too scared to bring the animal TO THE PUBLIC!!??

Someone please tell me I'm not crazy before I explode.

:doh:


I think you should probably look around this particular forum before you try to advocate bringing Pit Bulls into social situations with other dogs. There is a wealth of information from very experienced, intelligent people here, and it would be a shame for it to go to waste.

Demo Dick
"My first priority will be to reinstate the assault weapons ban PERMANENTLY as soon as I take office...I intend to work with Congress on a national no carry law, 1 gun a month purchase limits, and bans on all semi-automatic guns."-Barack Obama
"When in doubt, whip it out."-Nuge
User avatar
DemoDick
They Like to Fondle My Gun
 
Posts: 1910
Location: New York

Postby Megumi-Oni » October 14th, 2009, 4:55 pm

DemoDick wrote:
I think you should probably look around this particular forum before you try to advocate bringing Pit Bulls into social situations with other dogs. There is a wealth of information from very experienced, intelligent people here, and it would be a shame for it to go to waste.

Demo Dick


Yeah... I know. See, that's the point everyone keeps missing. I'm not immediately and blindly bringing Megumi to a park. I have very slowly and cautiously introduced her, little bits at a time, to the park. Over time we have built a relationship of trust and understanding with the community there.

We've spent the last 6 months with this process, and coupled with proper care and training we've had excellent results. We use an accredited trainer, not some cookie cutter job. We're not ignorant or stupid with our dog.

Futhermore, Megumi is a boxer mix, and we can't confirm there's any APBT in her at all. She just looks like it, so we have to govern ourselves accordingly. It's the cautious approach we've chosen, rather than being another impulsive and irresponsible pet owner.

I feel like SPBR and pb-smiles is a bunch of people who say "don't be social because the dogs are dangerous!" Which is exactly the attitude I want to fight. It's very infuriating to see a proclaimed advocacy group take on that attitude and ridicule those who think differently.

With that said, I plan to continue my reading. Thanks for being real! So far...lol
Megumi-Oni
Just Whelped
 
Posts: 57

Postby mnp13 » October 14th, 2009, 5:11 pm

Personally I don't advocate breaksticks, nor do I own one. I don't feel that they are a reliable tool for breaking up a fight unless you have two people present and you either have two break sticks or can give clear instructions to the other party on exactly how to handle the other dog while you use the break stick on your dog.

Some of the things mentioned to break up fights include - pepper, pepper spray, a hose, a wooden spoon, tazer, shutting a door on them, a pan of hot water over the head, pulling them apart by their back legs... :shock:

Dear God, do these people actually own the same breed that I do? Can I please go get the dogs?

I don't like how these people think they're doing advocacy a favor by saying "yeah, my dog's gonna attack something so I avoid social contact all together and carry a break stick."

I consider Riggs to be a breed advocate, and he does not socialize with other dogs, nor does he socialize with all that many total strangers. Nor does he socialize with all that many people that I know. However, he is very obedient, he walks nicely on leash, when other dogs are rude to him I keep his focus on me and when his limits are reached I put him up. You don't have to have a social butterfly to have a breed advocate.

Megumi-Oni wrote: How is the public supposed to feel better about the breed, and believe in the advocacy, if you're too scared to bring the animal TO THE PUBLIC!!??

Scared? Far from it. What scares me are the people who think that their Pit Bull is just a giant Chihuahua and that it belongs at a dog park, a Pet Expo, a Fall Festival or any of the other giant pet gatherings with masses of dogs running around on flexi leads with inattentive owners.

Dan+Bec13 wrote:I'm not trying to stir up anything here

No worries, you're good. :)
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17234
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby DemoDick » October 14th, 2009, 5:14 pm

Megumi-Oni wrote:Yeah... I know. See, that's the point everyone keeps missing. I'm not immediately and blindly bringing Megumi to a park. I have very slowly and cautiously introduced her, little bits at a time, to the park. Over time we have built a relationship of trust and understanding with the community there.


That will go to hell when your dog ends up in a fight. I don't advocate off leash dog parks for any dog, let alone terriers. There's no predictability, no control, and no supervision. Just a bunch of well meaning owners with almost no clue what they are doing, allowing their dogs to interact socially the way canines do (i.e. sorting out pack order lagely with intimidation and force).

We've spent the last 6 months with this process, and coupled with proper care and training we've had excellent results. We use an accredited trainer, not some cookie cutter job. We're not ignorant or stupid with our dog.

Futhermore, Megumi is a boxer mix, and we can't confirm there's any APBT in her at all. She just looks like it, so we have to govern ourselves accordingly. It's the cautious approach we've chosen, rather than being another impulsive and irresponsible pet owner.


You and I have different definitions of "cautious" in this matter. I wouldn't do it at all with any dog. Too risky.

I feel like SPBR and pb-smiles is a bunch of people who say "don't be social because the dogs are dangerous!" Which is exactly the attitude I want to fight. It's very infuriating to see a proclaimed advocacy group take on that attitude and ridicule those who think differently.


No one here will tell you that Pit Bulls are "dangerous," but they are fighting dogs, and a lot of us have the real deal. To ignore this is folly. I wouldn't expect a Patterdale to "make friends" with rats, and I don't expect my Pit Bull to "make friends" with other dogs. I would do everyone a disservice with this kind of irresponsibility, because when it blows up, we all suffer.

There are a multitude of ways to advocate this breed that do not involve placing unrealistic expectations on your dog, or put him or other dogs at risk of serious physical injury. It's also not a good idea to create an unrealistic expectation of behavior among the general public, as that just increases the number of people who think thay they can "Cesar" the fighting instinct out of the dog. Better to be up front and honest about the fact that these dogs can and will fight with other dogs and animals better than anything on four legs. There are a LOT of people here who had to "cowboy learn" this lesson. Take their advice.

With that said, I plan to continue my reading. Thanks for being real! So far...lol


You won't find me anything but "real."

Demo Dick
"My first priority will be to reinstate the assault weapons ban PERMANENTLY as soon as I take office...I intend to work with Congress on a national no carry law, 1 gun a month purchase limits, and bans on all semi-automatic guns."-Barack Obama
"When in doubt, whip it out."-Nuge
User avatar
DemoDick
They Like to Fondle My Gun
 
Posts: 1910
Location: New York

Postby Megumi-Oni » October 14th, 2009, 5:23 pm

While I hear what you're saying, I happen to disagree. I'm sorry, and I'll do so as politely as possible without blowing up.

I feel socialization is key to a dog's development. Regardless of breed. Yes, there are other people to be worried about. But, that's why I don't go to just any dog park. That's why I go to one where I know the people, and I trust their ability to help me prevent and break up any incident that happens. In situations where I feel I've lost that edge, I leave.

So, please. Don't think I'm being irresponsible or reckless. That's the mistake SPBR made when I discussed the topic over there. Let's just leave it be, because I believe in what I'm doing. I get all the proper and necessary training as needed, so I'm not just blindly going into things.

Anyway. Let's go get dinner! :dance:
Megumi-Oni
Just Whelped
 
Posts: 57

Postby Dan+Bec13 » October 14th, 2009, 5:27 pm

I think there are other ways to be social with your dog then just taking him to a dog park. Demo makes a good point because even if it's not your dogs fault, the reality is because of the way your dog looks it's immediatly at fault. Sad but true. One way we got to be social with our dog Maddie was while on the other forum you mentioned I met some people that we became friends with. We used to meet up at some ones private property and let the dogs run around and play with eachother. This was great because we all knew each others dogs, everyone was concious of their dogs, and we never had a problem. I don't think as pit bull or pit bull mix owners we need to hide what society has dubbed menacing, but you need to know your own dog and stay out of situations that could turn ugly.
Dan+Bec13
Just Whelped
 
Posts: 42
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby mnp13 » October 14th, 2009, 5:47 pm

Megumi-Oni wrote:While I hear what you're saying, I happen to disagree. I'm sorry, and I'll do so as politely as possible without blowing up.

Stay polite and you'll be able to say pretty much anything you want. Start name calling and we'll have issues. Outside of that, have at it.

I feel socialization is key to a dog's development. Regardless of breed. Yes, there are other people to be worried about. But, that's why I don't go to just any dog park. That's why I go to one where I know the people, and I trust their ability to help me prevent and break up any incident that happens. In situations where I feel I've lost that edge, I leave.

Socialization is one thing, dog parks are another. Well, unless you're talking about dog parks in the way that I dream of using the ones that are being put up in Rochester - I want to become a member and then go at 7 in the morning when no one is there so that my dogs can play by themselves. Packs of dogs? No, not a chance.

So, please. Don't think I'm being irresponsible or reckless. That's the mistake SPBR made when I discussed the topic over there. Let's just leave it be, because I believe in what I'm doing. I get all the proper and necessary training as needed, so I'm not just blindly going into things.

People can think you are being irresponsible if they want to - that's an opinion. :| And you're going to be hard pressed to get anyone to "leave it be" if you bring it up. You may get all the "proper and necessary training" but does everyone else who is there? Does everyone else keep up with that training? Does everyone else read their dogs correctly?

I teach at a local dog club, and between classes I spend a lot of time telling people to get their dogs away from other dogs. Dogs I have never seen before start getting into each other's faces and I say "Please separate your dogs, they have had enough" and get dirty looks or the usual "they are just making friends" protests... and ten seconds later the dogs are flipping out at each other. I don't own the dogs, I don't know the dogs, I've never even actually met the dogs, but I can read them better then the owners... and that is not uncommon. I just don't have any faith in the general dog owning population, and do not trust them to handle their dogs properly.

I allow my dogs to meet other dogs on a very limited basis, under controlled conditions, and even then sometimes things go wrong. :oops: Let them run around in a group? Even a known group? No way... if they decide to get snarky over a blade of grass the ensuing rolling dog fight would be brutal, extremely difficult to break up, dangerous for the people wading into the middle and possibly deadly to one or more canines involved.

I do believe that dogs are social animals, I don't believe they need "doggy friends" to be happy.
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17234
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby DemoDick » October 14th, 2009, 5:53 pm

Megumi-Oni wrote:While I hear what you're saying, I happen to disagree. I'm sorry, and I'll do so as politely as possible without blowing up.

I feel socialization is key to a dog's development. Regardless of breed. Yes, there are other people to be worried about. But, that's why I don't go to just any dog park. That's why I go to one where I know the people, and I trust their ability to help me prevent and break up any incident that happens. In situations where I feel I've lost that edge, I leave.


Please consider my analogy regarding Patterdales and rats again. If your dog is even part Pit Bull, he has fighting in his ancestry. Murphy's Law-that ancestry will rear its head when you last expect and are least able to deal with it.

So, please. Don't think I'm being irresponsible or reckless.


Never said you were. I said it would be irresponsible for me to go to a dog park with my dog, as I am aware of the potential consequences. You are not being irresponsible, as you don't appear to fully understand what you are dealing with. In order to be irresponsible, one has to understand the ramifications of one's actions and act in a manner likely to cause harm. I don't think that applies to you.

That's the mistake SPBR made when I discussed the topic over there. Let's just leave it be, because I believe in what I'm doing. I get all the proper and necessary training as needed, so I'm not just blindly going into things.


I don't understand this. You started the discussion. And quite frankly, belief means nothing. Intentions mean nothing. All that matters are results, as results are ultimately what affect us all.

These are amazing dogs, and at this point I won't have any other. However, I strive to be realistic and honest about what they are, because if I do not do these things I perpetuate disinformation about the breed, which ultimately harms us all. If we wish to continue keeping this breed alive and in the right hands, we need to counter the idea that they are "just like every other dog" because, in fact, they are not. They are unique and require owners who can appreciate that uniqueness for what it is; not a detriment or a downside, but something special. It just so happens that the very thing that makes them so special, the utter refusal to quit in the face of adversity, doesn't always work out so well in real life when their owners aren't fully aware of what it means.

Demo Dick
"My first priority will be to reinstate the assault weapons ban PERMANENTLY as soon as I take office...I intend to work with Congress on a national no carry law, 1 gun a month purchase limits, and bans on all semi-automatic guns."-Barack Obama
"When in doubt, whip it out."-Nuge
User avatar
DemoDick
They Like to Fondle My Gun
 
Posts: 1910
Location: New York

Postby Megumi-Oni » October 15th, 2009, 4:53 pm

DemoDick wrote:... Murphy's Law-that ancestry will rear its head when you last expect and are least able to deal with it.


Am I the only one who finds it humorous that someone would quote 'Murphy's Law' in a scientific context? I guess I didn't preserve that context, but I'm not going to govern myself according to the paranoid cynicism Murphy's Law is based upon.

... I'll keep reading though, because I hope to find more of this. lol
Megumi-Oni
Just Whelped
 
Posts: 57

Postby Megumi-Oni » October 15th, 2009, 5:03 pm

DemoDick wrote:Never said you were. I said it would be irresponsible for me to go to a dog park with my dog, as I am aware of the potential consequences. You are not being irresponsible, as you don't appear to fully understand what you are dealing with. In order to be irresponsible, one has to understand the ramifications of one's actions and act in a manner likely to cause harm. I don't think that applies to you.


So is that how you call someone ignorant without actually saying it? Very smooth, sir! I like your style!

I must assert that just because you don't agree with my opinion or approach, doesn't mean I don't 'understand the ramifications' of my opinion or approach. Just because my opinion isn't popular, or doesn't match yours, does not in any way mean you have a right to think, or smoothly imply, that I'm ignorant... or by your words "don't appear to fully understand what you're dealing with."

That's the part that really gets me heated quite well... when someone disagrees with me and does so in such a way that they assume I don't understand, or I don't see the greater picture, etc. That, by definition, is being ignorant and I don't feel saying so means I'm name calling. I'm simply stating a fact. And, furthermore, by limiting your own point of view to what you're comfortable with and saying my point of view is incomplete, you're being ignorant of the fact that one point of view may not be applicable in all cases. So, again, it's fair to say you're being ignorant based on the pure definition of the word. When I made the similar case over on SPBR, they had a similar reaction... no name calling. Well, I'm sorry. I'm simply not doing that. I'm using the English language. It's in the dictionary and all that garbage.

So, with that said it seems like many of you seem to be convinced that you want to live your life with your dog in such a way that you succumb to the paranoid sensationalism created in the media from irresponsible dog ownership. The aftermath of the human element when we 1) do stupid things with the more aggressive breeds and 2) allow ourselves to be drawn to fear-mongering media reporting techniques. I don't choose to allow the bad PR to dictate how I socialize my animal, simply put. If that's how you want to operate... go for it. You have that right. But to imply I'm being irresponsible because I don't agree with your motivations is simply wrong.

Thanks!
Megumi-Oni
Just Whelped
 
Posts: 57

Postby Megumi-Oni » October 15th, 2009, 5:15 pm

"And quite frankly, belief means nothing. Intentions mean nothing. All that matters are results, as results are ultimately what affect us all."

You can't get results in anything if you don't believe in what you're doing. Results obtained haphazardly offer no reward at all. But, properly and fully socializing these animals will serve to show the community that they are capable of mixing well with everyone. It's up to the responsible owner to make sure the bad situations are avoided, but that's no reason to stay at home. I believe the reward of a more compassionate and understanding community is greater than just being able to own a dog at home. I believe the reward of lifting the 'aggressive breeds list' from insurance companies and leasing companies so that I can get an apartment anywhere starts with letting the community see how my dog interacts, etc. If we're going to make change, we can't sit back and stay within our own little walls. We have to reach out to the community. Does that mean I think EVERY pit should be out in public? Hellz no! I recognize that there are some problem dogs, regardless of breed, and if you own one... good luck! But I know my dog, and I know her limits and mine, so my approach works for me. My reward thus far has been great. I've already got my apartment to unofficially lift the breed restrictions because I've been able to show them a very well adjusted, social dog who is obedient and gentle, loving and kind. I have a file with countless petitions and papers submitted to the staff saying "no, I will not let you muzzle my dog just because of how she looks." So far, I have won. And by extension so have you. I believe in the progress I'm making, and I believe you should recognize that my efforts are in good faith and have yielded positive results for everyone.

I'm just a small example. One person, one dog. But, when we can all step outside our own fear and paranoia, we can all begin to make the same progress with other animals. Even the meanest dog can be trained out of their instinct to kill. They can be trained to focus more on their leader than their instinct. I believe that 100% because I've seen it. Will it work with EVERY dog? No. Probably not. But I won't let the minority case discourage me from showing the world how great my dog has been.

Thanks!
Megumi-Oni
Just Whelped
 
Posts: 57

Postby pitbullmamaliz » October 15th, 2009, 5:29 pm

I think you're judging all of us as hiding our dogs away just because the majority of us choose not to go to dog parks. I think once you've hung around a bit (which I hope you do!) and gotten to know us all better you'll find that the vast majority of us LOVE taking our well-behaved dogs out in public and educating people. I take my dog as many places as possible with me. She's changed so many people's minds. But I also know my dog (and the breed) and I know that she's selectively reactive to other dogs. As I am unable to pinpoint exactly what type/style of dog sets her off, she doesn't get to meet other dogs out in public. Does that make me a bad owner because I don't train train train to the point where simple obedience over-rides her anxiety? Maybe. But I don't like everybody around me and I snark at other people, so I don't expect her to be more of a saint than I am! lol

Regardless, I don't think we're perpetuating the breed stereotypes when we encourage people to do their homework before getting this breed and realize that with the way pit bulls are viewed right now, all it takes is one person to say, "I was attacked!" when actually the dog just jumped on them, for BSL to get passed in a city. All it takes is one incident, ONE SIMPLE INCIDENT by a dog that prior to now has been 100% compliant. One incident and the rest of us can lose our rights as well.
"Remember - every time your dog gets somewhere on a tight leash *a fairy dies and it's all your fault.* Think of the fairies." http://www.positivepetzine.com"

http://www.pitbullzen.com
http://inaradog.wordpress.com
User avatar
pitbullmamaliz
Working out in the buff causes chafing
 
Posts: 15437
Location: Cleveland, OH

Postby TheRedQueen » October 15th, 2009, 5:52 pm

I'm curious to know how your fantastic dog park is set up...because I've never seen such a thing. I used to frequent dog parks, but realized that my dogs grew tired of the idiot dogs (and I was tired of the idiot owners) that stole their toys, humped them constantly, and body slammed them out of nowhere...etc. And these dogs of mine were not terrier/bully breeds/APBTs...these were hounds and herding dogs. The dogs I see having a good time at dog parks are usually goldens, labs, and boxers...the perpetual puppy dogs...that will play and wrestle with anything in the park.

That said, my guys (all of them), enjoy a rich social life...they have a steady stream of visitors at the house...who they can play with or not, they have playtime after classes twice a week, and they work with me all day...taking hikes and such with other dogs. They do NOT go to the dog park. They meet and play (if they desire) with small groups of dogs or individuals. Some of them don't get along well, so they don't get to play/hike/meet up with each other.

That said, I think in general terms, people think that dog-dog socialization is the most important thing in a puppy/dog's life. While it is important that they get socialized with other dogs (GOOD quality socialization...which is often not the case at dog parks)...socialization is more than that...and I constantly have to make sure my puppy raisers and puppy owners get this point in my puppy class. The puppies/dogs should be experiencing many different things under the umbrella of "Socialization"...new environments, new surfaces, new noises, new things to eat out of, new people, new animals, etc. The buzzword of socialization seems to be narrowly focused on dog-dog interaction. I talk to people all of the time with behavior issues with their 1-2 year old dogs...I ask how the socialization went as a puppy..."Oh, we met lots of dogs at the dog park!" I have clients right now that "Can't wait until the puppies are old enough for the dog park!" :rolleyes2:

I like a social dog...it's important in my household to get along with other dogs...but I don't think dog parks are the best way to go about it. ;) I know people that swear by them...but they often have sporting dogs...lol
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
User avatar
TheRedQueen
I thought I lost my Wiener... but then I found him.
 
Posts: 7184
Location: Maryland

Postby DemoDick » October 15th, 2009, 6:12 pm

WOW.

Demo Dick
"My first priority will be to reinstate the assault weapons ban PERMANENTLY as soon as I take office...I intend to work with Congress on a national no carry law, 1 gun a month purchase limits, and bans on all semi-automatic guns."-Barack Obama
"When in doubt, whip it out."-Nuge
User avatar
DemoDick
They Like to Fondle My Gun
 
Posts: 1910
Location: New York

Postby Megumi-Oni » October 15th, 2009, 6:17 pm

pitbullmamaliz wrote:I think you're judging all of us as hiding our dogs away just because the majority of us choose not to go to dog parks. I think once you've hung around a bit (which I hope you do!) and gotten to know us all better you'll find that the vast majority of us LOVE taking our well-behaved dogs out in public and educating people. I take my dog as many places as possible with me. She's changed so many people's minds. But I also know my dog (and the breed) and I know that she's selectively reactive to other dogs. As I am unable to pinpoint exactly what type/style of dog sets her off, she doesn't get to meet other dogs out in public. Does that make me a bad owner because I don't train train train to the point where simple obedience over-rides her anxiety? Maybe. But I don't like everybody around me and I snark at other people, so I don't expect her to be more of a saint than I am! lol

Regardless, I don't think we're perpetuating the breed stereotypes when we encourage people to do their homework before getting this breed and realize that with the way pit bulls are viewed right now, all it takes is one person to say, "I was attacked!" when actually the dog just jumped on them, for BSL to get passed in a city. All it takes is one incident, ONE SIMPLE INCIDENT by a dog that prior to now has been 100% compliant. One incident and the rest of us can lose our rights as well.


I agree 100%. I just feel like a vast majority of those who post opposing views assume I haven't done my homework at all, and that's just a flawed assumption.

Thanks though! I'm glad we've put into words how we handle our dogs! (You and me, I mean. We have similar strategies.)
Megumi-Oni
Just Whelped
 
Posts: 57

Postby Megumi-Oni » October 15th, 2009, 6:28 pm

TheRedQueen wrote:I'm curious to know how your fantastic dog park is set up...because I've never seen such a thing. I used to frequent dog parks, but realized that my dogs grew tired of the idiot dogs (and I was tired of the idiot owners) that stole their toys, humped them constantly, and body slammed them out of nowhere...etc. And these dogs of mine were not terrier/bully breeds/APBTs...these were hounds and herding dogs. The dogs I see having a good time at dog parks are usually goldens, labs, and boxers...the perpetual puppy dogs...that will play and wrestle with anything in the park.

That said, my guys (all of them), enjoy a rich social life...they have a steady stream of visitors at the house...who they can play with or not, they have playtime after classes twice a week, and they work with me all day...taking hikes and such with other dogs. They do NOT go to the dog park. They meet and play (if they desire) with small groups of dogs or individuals. Some of them don't get along well, so they don't get to play/hike/meet up with each other.

That said, I think in general terms, people think that dog-dog socialization is the most important thing in a puppy/dog's life. While it is important that they get socialized with other dogs (GOOD quality socialization...which is often not the case at dog parks)...socialization is more than that...and I constantly have to make sure my puppy raisers and puppy owners get this point in my puppy class. The puppies/dogs should be experiencing many different things under the umbrella of "Socialization"...new environments, new surfaces, new noises, new things to eat out of, new people, new animals, etc. The buzzword of socialization seems to be narrowly focused on dog-dog interaction. I talk to people all of the time with behavior issues with their 1-2 year old dogs...I ask how the socialization went as a puppy..."Oh, we met lots of dogs at the dog park!" I have clients right now that "Can't wait until the puppies are old enough for the dog park!" :rolleyes2:

I like a social dog...it's important in my household to get along with other dogs...but I don't think dog parks are the best way to go about it. ;) I know people that swear by them...but they often have sporting dogs...lol



I also agree 100%. That's not to add validity to your argument at all, it's simply saying that I understand your more informed point and I appreciate it. And I know socialization is more than just go to a park... I know it involves all the new things you're talking about.

I live downtown. Every day is a new experience for my dog. We go to new areas during our walks, meet new people and dogs all the time, and enjoy very consistently having something new to capture our interests.

As far as our park... it isn't a run of the mill park. There aren't a whole lot of things to have a dispute over. Water dishes? There's at least 9 of them. And I've never seen any animal get territorial over one of them in the months I've been going. Tennis balls? Ok. There's a million of them. Again, never seen a dispute over one. It's basically just a big, open area with a fence around it. And each person using the park knows the rules, and those rules are there to protect the animals and their owners. We all understand that.

I see little difference in taking a dog to a park versus having play dates with different owners / dogs in a back yard someplace. In fact, by your argument, a dog park is a GREAT way to get something new each time and do exactly what you suggest!

Anyway, this seems to be a heated topic for sure. I understand that, because I understand how someone could be afraid their dog will be affected by the irresponsible reporting of someone else looking for a scape goat rather than taking responsibility for their own animals. I get it, trust me! I'm just not sure I'm convinced I want to make matters worse by not helping to expose the JQP to a wonderful animal such as mine.

I dunno. I feel like we keep saying the same old stuff, and we all seem to say we understand each other's perspective. I think what we're doing now is asserting our own opinions as the correct ones. I'm willing to let it go at this point because there's better ways to generate positive press for everyone involved. Like writing letters to publishers, editors, and journalists... congress, etc.

Thanks!
Megumi-Oni
Just Whelped
 
Posts: 57

Postby TheRedQueen » October 15th, 2009, 6:41 pm

I see little difference in taking a dog to a park versus having play dates with different owners / dogs in a back yard someplace. In fact, by your argument, a dog park is a GREAT way to get something new each time and do exactly what you suggest


Hmmm...well, for starters, I don't have upwards of 50-60 dogs in my backyard when I have playdates. Yeah, most of the dog parks around here are less than an acre (usually smaller than my backyard which is 1/2 acre)...and on any given day there might be 75 or so dogs running around willy-nilly. Not exactly the same thing as having a few hand-picked dogs and friends over for playtime. :|

The dog beach in our area...overrun with dogs and owners on the weekends...crazy...just shoulder to shoulder on a small strip of beach.

Just for the record...I don't use dog parks, and I don't have APBTs...my guys are mainly herders...and they HATE dog parks. ;)
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
User avatar
TheRedQueen
I thought I lost my Wiener... but then I found him.
 
Posts: 7184
Location: Maryland

Postby cheekymunkee » October 15th, 2009, 8:26 pm

I have not read all of the posts in this thread because they are too long and I am too tired. BUT I see a HUGE difference in opinion & frankly, it is because we own pit bulls and you own a boxer mix. Step into my world for a few days & you will wholeheartedly change your mind. I have 2 pit bulls & one spitz mix. All have been heavily socialized on leash & in controlled environments ( friends dogs, no dog parks for ANY of my dogs, bull breeds or not). I do consider Munkee to be a breed ambassador, he is not locked away, he is not hidden from the public, he is just not allowed (nor does he WANT to) play with other dogs. He is around people all of the time, those he knows, those he does not. He loves all of them & they love him. I care about the way he is with HUMANS of all ages & sizes, I could care less if Rover likes him or not. He is from a cold breeding, he has been to numerous dog training classes & has met many many dogs. He was always fine with all but the pushy ones, he got snarky but that was the extent of it. He was that way for 3 years.


He is now almost 10 and will kill or try to kill ANY dog who crosses his path save my spitz mix and he wold kill her in a heart beat if he didnt know I would take his head off. That is not my fault, that is not his fault, that is his heritage, his genetics, his breed. That is who he is, that is what the TRUE pit bull is. Yes, many true pit bulls get along with other dogs, some get along with all dogs, but it is NOT to be expected. If you are going to own this breed you need to know and be prepared for the fact that this dog could possibly, without much warning ( unless you know what to look for) go from playing chase with Fluffy to snapping her neck. A water dish can start a fight, a blade of grass, a look, you name it. My dogs have scuffled over air.

I have owned this breed ALL of my life, I know this breed like the back of my hand. I know what they are capable of and I do not want to hear that 51 years of knowledge & experience is bunk. I do not perpetuate stereotypes, I tell the TRUTH about this breed & I do not sugar coat it. People denying their dogs breed are what have gotten the breed to the point it is now. People who deny that their dog can and will kill another dog and not even think twice about it. Frankly, those are the people who I wish would leave my breed alone. You can believe what ever you want to believe, that does not make it so. My dogs are NOT problem dogs and I resent the implication that they are, they are American Pit Bull Terriers in EVERY since of the words.

I represent my dogs, I fight for my dogs, I have been fighting BSL for many years & I continue to be active in the fight. I also fight irresponsibility with this breed. THAT is why this message board and others like it exist, to teach people HOW to be responsible pit bull owners. We have to be BETTER owners than the average Joe because of our breed of choice. I dont want every Tom, Dick & Harry to own this breed, I would prefer that 99% of the peopel who own it now get another breed & leave this one alone, they are the people who have fucked it up for the responsible people. People who think this breed is just like a poodle or a spaniel or whatever other breeds there are. People who do not understand their dog have screwed it up for the rest of us and I am not going to join in on that little melee or let it take place on this board. I am sorry but I will not let someone who has VERY limited knowledge and experience with this breed tell me that I am 'doing it wrong'. :x I raise my dogs the way my father & my uncles taught me how to raise it, they apparently knew what they were doing & quite frankly, so do I.

I happen to like my dogs just the way they are, I do not care if someone thinks they are are problem because they are who they are. I KNOW better, I KNOW what an amazing breed it is and I KNOW what it is capable of. You need to understand this breed a lot better before you advocate changes
There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.

Debby
User avatar
cheekymunkee
I Have Your Grass
 
Posts: 28540
Location: Dallas

Next

Return to Pit Bull Talk

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot]

cron