Cesar Millan

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Postby dogcrazyjen » May 6th, 2006, 7:31 am

I agree that his message of diet, exercise, and the dog is a dog is a great message. Hopefully that is what some people take from his show.

I have, however, met many people who think you just square your shoulders and walk, and the dog magically obeys, they do not 'see' all the little corrections he does. They also do not 'hear' about the exercise.

I have had clients tell me that Cesar would have done it faster, and I have to tell them they need to choose, stay with positive training or add correction based training. If they want an 'instant fix', get a prong (I know, technically negative reinforcement, not punishment). If they want to correct, get a choke. I can instruct them there, and teach them to wean off the tools. But they came to me because I do mainly positive training, they did NOT want to use those tools, and that takes longer. Most people I have soke with do not recognize what he is actually doing, and when they are told they say they do not want that.

I also point out that at the end of my training, or any other thorough trainer, you have a dog which obeys OFF LEASH. I guarantee that if that English Bulldog was taken off the collar it would have reverted right back to the old behaviors. Cesar does not spend enough time there to teach off-leash manners. Even if the prong gives you an instant good dog while on the prong, it takes time to wean off it. As soon as that bulldog realized that when he stood up and stepped towards the ball or water he got no correction, he would have jumped right back in. Problem was not solved.



If you alpha role a large dog and you are not physically able to handle it or don't know the technique, then you are at risk for a bite. He is making it look easy, when it is not. And if you alpha role a dog which has people fear issues and not dominance issues, you are at risk of making things worse.

THAT is my biggest beef with him. He misrepresents himself, and misrepresents his progress in some cases. He gives people the idea that if you stand up straight and pretend you are cleopatra, you will solve all of your dogs issues. That just is not always true. True aggression, fear, and real dominance issues take much more finesse than he is able to show on TV.

That is why there is a huge disclaimer every time the show comes on.
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Postby SisMorphine » May 6th, 2006, 9:06 am

dogcrazyjen wrote:THAT is my biggest beef with him. He misrepresents himself, and misrepresents his progress in some cases.

Absolutely!

I was chatting with someone who said she watched an episode with a dog who kept going after the family cat. Well he sat and gave corrections whenever the dog tried to go at the cat, problem solved.

But the woman I was talking to said that she REALLY paid attention and under all the dog's fluff you could see the dog was wearing a second collar. Ceasar's hand never came out of his pocket. The dog was wearing an e-collar and he was zapping him each time, YET he never mentioned anything about the collar and using it, just made it seem like the verbal or physical corrections he was giving (I didn't see the episode so I'm not exactly sure what he was doing) were all that was needed to correct the behavior.
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Postby mnp13 » May 6th, 2006, 9:57 am

dogcrazyjen wrote:If you alpha role a large dog and you are not physically able to handle it or don't know the technique, then you are at risk for a bite. He is making it look easy, when it is not. And if you alpha role a dog which has people fear issues and not dominance issues, you are at risk of making things worse.


the alpha roll is the worst thing you could possilby do to a dog, and is pretty stupid as well. When you alpha roll a dog, where is your face? Right next to the dog's face. If the dog decides to struggle or fighe back, what is the closest thing to its teeth? Your face. Not smart.

The other thing about the magical alpha roll... how do dogs roll each other? they don't. The submissive dog submits by rolling themselves over. I have a video of it with Connor and Ruby.
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Postby SisMorphine » May 6th, 2006, 10:18 am

mnp13 wrote:The other thing about the magical alpha roll... how do dogs roll each other? they don't. The submissive dog submits by rolling themselves over. I have a video of it with Connor and Ruby.

Yeah I've seen Wally "roll" a few dogs, and really what happened was they were doing something wrong and Wally went to correct them, they rolled themselves over, and Wally stood over them, screaming in their face. He never made contact with any of them.
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Postby call2arms » May 6th, 2006, 11:32 am

I only saw the episode where a female pit bull with high dog aggression gets alpha rolled when crossing dogs on the streets, and then Cesar brings her into his pack.
You can tell she's not very comfortable in this situation, and as soon as the owners visited, she picked a small fight with a fluffy mutt.

Can you imagine what happens if someone decides to do that on his own?

Because Cesar makes it look just fiiiine, like a natural situation. I was taken aback by him doing this, just control the dog aggression along with the owners, and leave it at that... No need to throw the dog-aggro pittie in a bunch of other dogs where youre just risking pretty much every other dog's lives...

OK, he tells the owners to exercise her and to stop treating her like the Queen of the house. Good thing to know, right? But damn...
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Postby dogcrazyjen » May 6th, 2006, 11:34 am

Well, my husband alpha rolled a cattle dog, and never had another problem with him. so it DOES work sometimes. I on the other hand refused to do it, and that dang dog was a pain in my tookas.

I do not ever suggest it, and I never do it, but I have seen it work.

:|

That is disturbing about the e-collar. That is out and out lying.
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Postby pLaurent » May 6th, 2006, 1:32 pm

mnp13 wrote:
dogcrazyjen wrote:If you alpha role a large dog and you are not physically able to handle it or don't know the technique, then you are at risk for a bite. He is making it look easy, when it is not. And if you alpha role a dog which has people fear issues and not dominance issues, you are at risk of making things worse.


the alpha roll is the worst thing you could possilby do to a dog, and is pretty stupid as well. When you alpha roll a dog, where is your face? Right next to the dog's face. If the dog decides to struggle or fighe back, what is the closest thing to its teeth? Your face. Not smart.

The other thing about the magical alpha roll... how do dogs roll each other? they don't. The submissive dog submits by rolling themselves over. I have a video of it with Connor and Ruby.


I so agree. If physical force is the only way a person can control his dog, what if the dog is a 160lb Mastiff? Obviously other means must be found, and those same methods can be used with smaller dogs.

One thing in the original story has me puzzled:'
Suarez says he spent at least $25,000 on medical bills


25,000$???
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Postby mnp13 » May 6th, 2006, 2:33 pm

dogcrazyjen wrote:Well, my husband alpha rolled a cattle dog, and never had another problem with him. so it DOES work sometimes. I on the other hand refused to do it, and that dang dog was a pain in my tookas.


I never said it didn't work. I said it is stupid to do and can be very dangerous. It is also pure dominance.
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Postby call2arms » May 6th, 2006, 3:09 pm

pL, I think in the article it stated that the owner had to pay over 25 000$ in medical bills, and that there was some more oesophagus surgery to be made. Still, 25 000$... I don't know what kind of vet he goes to, but it's not a kind I know of...
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Postby msvette2u » May 6th, 2006, 3:50 pm

There's just SO MUCH MORE to being "alpha" of your dog than a "roll" it isn't funny.
Just the act of feeding your dog is being the ALPHA. The Alpha controls the resources - pure and simple.
You control the space - the food - the recreation time - the toys - it's ALL YOURS. The dog can "borrow" these things if he earns it.
That's being alpha. Not rolling a dog on it's back...
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Postby dogcrazyjen » May 7th, 2006, 11:48 am

Well, it is southern CA. I had a surgery done there to remove a foxtail from Jack's nose, and it cost me $800 bucks. That was a quick, put him under, take tweezers, and pull it out, done and home the next morning. If this dog has had to be there for over a week, multiple complicated surgeries, it can get pricy. But $25,000 bucks, must be Malibu or Beverly Hills.


Cattle dogs are a breed unto themselves. They do NOT do well with all positive training, most that i have met will walk all over you. Mine was a HARD lesson for me to learn, since I had been hell bent on all positives at the time. I agree, an alpha roll will only do so much. There are tiny, everyday ways to assert pack order, which I learned the hard way. :rolleyes2: But for my husband, it worked well. Of course I was the one dealing with him most of the time, so it made it easy on my husband.

Never again, a cattle dog. I would rather train a freaking cat! They are neat dogs, but I do NOT want to spend my life asserting my dominance. :evil:
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Postby pLaurent » May 7th, 2006, 12:21 pm

But $25,000 bucks, must be Malibu or Beverly Hills


Must have taken the dog to one of the doctors on "Dr.90210". :D

As for cattle dogs, yes you're right, many dogs have a very hard temperment and need much more firm training. But if someone looks at what a cattle dog is bred to do - control and herd very big and ornery cattle, a dangerous and very tough job - they would not be surprised if that dog is dominant, independant and hard tempered.

Like many breeds they are just perfect if doing the job they are bred to do, but a nightmare in the wrong circumstances or with the wrong person.
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Postby a-bull » May 7th, 2006, 12:25 pm

mnp13 wrote:
dogcrazyjen wrote:Well, my husband alpha rolled a cattle dog, and never had another problem with him. so it DOES work sometimes. I on the other hand refused to do it, and that dang dog was a pain in my tookas.


I never said it didn't work. I said it is stupid to do and can be very dangerous. It is also pure dominance.


I agree.

This is an interesting thread, by the way . . . I have not been following the negative publicity surrounding this guy, and I thought I was impressed by him, but I think I'll pay more attention before being too impressed. :rolleyes2:

Yeah, not too sure about that claim of "intentional infliction of emotional distress"---a claim of negligence probably would have been a better claim.
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Postby Pitcrew » May 8th, 2006, 11:25 pm

In my opinion the most valuable information I think "joe public" should take from this show is that ALL of the problems he deals with are PEOPLE PROBLEMS! Understanding species phsychology is important to live with any animal safely and with a healthy relationship (including people).
He gets people to accept and understand (hopefully) that their dogs problems stem from them, and rely on them for fixing the problem. And that even severe, long time problems, are fixable. And I think more people may have hope for their dogs problems, take responsibility, and seek help as a result.
There are many things people can learn about leadership and not humanizing their dogs, that are non-confrontational.

Although I did see the episode with the black German shepherd with the cat, and the e-collar... I don't think it was misrepresented... just not mentioned. I am kind of glad actually. Although I don't mind them in the hands of a professional they are WIDELY misused by the general public, and mentioning THAT method (being honest) is the most likely method people would attempt to use (and misuse) as a quick fix without professional help. Much more so than the alpha roll.

Its not like the alpha roll is a NEW method. Although usually used inappropriately, unsafely, and incorrectly, it is no more abusive than a prong collar when done properly, for the right reasons, to the right dog.
Obviously (I hope) it can be dangerous to do to even a small dog that has severe dominance problems and aggression. I have seen several dogs who suffer severe panic when restrained, and are dangerous in that state, which was CAUSED by inappropriate, incorrect, alpha roll restraint. A dog I am dealing with now, was forcibly restrained in an "alpha roll" by 3 people! PROFESSIONAL TRAINERS! It did not fix his problem. The owners were told he should be destroyed.
I am confident I can teach the owner how to get the respect and control WITHOUT a roll... but I also hope to rehabilitate this dog to allow appropriate restraint safely (I'm sure his vet will appreciate) and willingly assume a submissive position with gentle methods. I would love to call those trainers and have him re-evaluated after I am done with him.

They say at the beginning of each show that none of the techniques should be attempted without a professional. And I think when watching some of the more aggressive dogs get rolled, people are unlikely to try.
I don't think he suggests his way is the ONLY way, or the BEST way. But with all of the positive techniques out there I am sure many of those dogs would not be able to be completely "rehabilitated" without correct exercise, diet and leadership. Techniques aside... I think his evaluation of the dogs (owners) problems and what is needed to "fix" them is generally correct. Lack of appropriate leadership and exercise. Sharing affection inappropriately, treating them like people... etc.
If you listen more to what he is saying and pay less attention to his technique (if you don't like it) then you can still learn a lot.

I do think he is helping pitbulls a lot though, with his showing many aggressive dogs that ARENT pits... like a SERIOUSLY aggressive lab who he deftly pointed out was a purebred and a breed supposed to be non-aggressive "family" dogs.
I also dont think he actually runs his pack unleashed in public. I think that is just staged for effect. You never actually see anyone but him in the area. I also think he is fairly honest about results... you cant fix everything... especially the people.

I have been to a lot of seminars (including Cesars), many of them from very controversial trainers, and learned something from them all. Even if that is what I DONT want to do! The trick to learning as much as you can, is be open to it all... and simply don't use the information you don't like.

Remember, someday you may own or know a dog that could have really benefited from a technique whose merit you could not understand, or rejected, at the time you learned it. And what is good for one, may NOT be for another... and vice versa. Please be open minded. Very few things are all good or all bad. The more dogs you train the more you learn.
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Postby pLaurent » May 9th, 2006, 10:44 am

Techniques aside... I think his evaluation of the dogs (owners) problems and what is needed to "fix" them is generally correct. Lack of appropriate leadership and exercise. Sharing affection inappropriately, treating them like people... etc.
If you listen more to what he is saying and pay less attention to his technique (if you don't like it) then you can still learn a lot.


Agree totally! And one incident, like this lawsuit, does not negate all of that.
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Postby dogcrazyjen » May 9th, 2006, 10:50 am

Lisa, those were very wise words.
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