Anyone use invisible fencing?

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Postby Romanwild » April 14th, 2006, 4:26 pm

cheekymunkee wrote:Your 82 year old mother was yanked off the porch????? :o :(


Yes, I was putting a outdoor table together for her with my father and he was inside with her. I told her to leave him inside.

I had let her hold the leash once because she wanted to be able to walk them for me. so I let her grab the leash. I didn't let go! she said "o.k.. I understand!"

Well she decided to give it a another try that day without telling me. she opened the door and Dreyfus bound out into the yard. she didn't hit the thumb brake and so when she did the dog kept going and he flew into the lawn from the porch! she FLEW! she got water on her knee and a scrape. I just about crapped my pants. :o
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Postby cheekymunkee » April 14th, 2006, 4:29 pm

I'm glad she was ok. Booger tripped my mom once, she fell face first onto the ground. She was ok but I almost had a stroke.
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Postby Maryellen » April 14th, 2006, 5:02 pm

charles thank god your mom is ok..

therese- i bite my tongue with my neighbors because they plow /salt our road and my driveway, and let us use their construction vehicles whenever we need them... so i just return their dog to them when she breaks out of her electric fence...
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Postby ellie@ny » April 14th, 2006, 6:22 pm

I'm using flexi too sometime.Before the shows,because Maya need her private space to go potty........and it would be hard on a show leash.And sometime when I go early to the park with them,and no ones there just us.I would never use it in a store or on the street.
Charles I'm glad your mom is fine...I know how hard they can pull sometime. :)
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Postby ellie@ny » April 14th, 2006, 6:27 pm

Where is the edit button again?Anyway if you use flexi it's a good thing if your dog know the stand still.....And I always have a reg. leash in my pocket.
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Postby a-bull » April 14th, 2006, 7:12 pm

Romanwild wrote:Dreyfus just broke a 110lb flexi like he wasn't even attached to it.

Think a IF would work on him? lol

What's wrong with a tether anyway? :?


The dog I used. I.F. on chewed through thick wire cable coated in plastic, and that is only one of many items he escaped from.

I don't even use Flexis on my current dogs, and I certainly wouldn't have on the guy I had on I.F.

A tether would not have worked on the dog I had on I.F. either, because he did not like to be restrained and I'm most sure it would not have contained him---and if it happened to, he would have been wildly frustrated.

Let me give you a clearer example~I left him in a two car garage once for a brief period when I first got him, in order to contain him without him trashing stuff, going through a window, or some such thing---well, my Porsche was in there and he lept on the top of it and dug the roof and the hood to escape during his frenzy over being contained in the garage. I'm talking serious seperation anxiety. Working/training him over time, plus the I.F. turned him almost completely around.

See why I'm a fan??

But AGAIN . . . it's not for EVERY dog or every person.
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Postby girlie » April 14th, 2006, 7:39 pm

a-bull wrote: my Porsche was in there and he lept on the top of it and dug the roof and the hood to escape during his frenzy over being contained in the garage.


OMG!!
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Postby chance's mom » April 14th, 2006, 8:53 pm

i think these IF are a joke! they Might keep your dog in your yard, or the dog could make a break for it anyway! if they do get through the IF and they try to come back in, it will shock them, great way to teach the dog to not come home, just shock it everytime it tries. or it may keep your dog in, but other dogs could walk in your yard and attack your dog and then walk out with no penelty! i dont agree with them at all. i would get a real fence and train the dog. just my opinion.
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Postby a-bull » April 14th, 2006, 9:28 pm

chance's mom wrote:i think these IF are a joke! they Might keep your dog in your yard, or the dog could make a break for it anyway! if they do get through the IF and they try to come back in, it will shock them, great way to teach the dog to not come home, just shock it everytime it tries. or it may keep your dog in, but other dogs could walk in your yard and attack your dog and then walk out with no penelty! i dont agree with them at all. i would get a real fence and train the dog. just my opinion.


My experience with the few people I know who have had their dogs run through it has been if they are willing to run through, they have been willing to run back in---it's not a "shock" like an electrical fence or other 'shocking' devices.

Yes, if you live in an area where there are lots of dogs running around loose, one could come into your yard, and if you have dog aggressive dogs running loose in your neighborhood, fights could occur. I never had problems like that and no one in my area that uses them has.

Using I.F. does not equal a dog without training, and to use it properly, the dog should be trained on the fencing system and trained in general. It isn't about "shocking" the dog to keep it in the yard.
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Postby Pitcrew » April 16th, 2006, 7:11 pm

I agree with you a-bull. I have had an invisible fence for over 8(?) years. I have had 7 dogs trained on it in that time, and had it at 3 different homes.

I don't recommend them to everyone, and do think in many cases it is used for laziness, for dogs who aren't trained properly in the first place.

I have 3 acres fenced in. In the country. In my first home I had less than 1/4 acre fenced in with chain link and it cost over $1,200 dollars. And that is just to install a fence I already had! I have had 3 acres done with IF for that.

I considered IF seriously for several years. There were many things about the product I didn't like. I saw a lot of problems in my client/customers dogs... most of them to do with improper training, others as a result of the product.
There ARE dogs who learned to run down the battery. The product I use (Pet Safe) has not only a solution for that, shock occurs if the warning tone sounds longer than a few seconds, but also has capability to be programed for 'anti-runthru'. What that does, is actually step up the correction progressively as the dog advances and kind-of pushes them back. It isn't just a correction the dog can run through. I have never needed these features. It also has an audible warning at he box if the power goes out or if the wire is broken anywhere and doesn't receive a signal. It also has a light which tells you when the batteries are low, and the company sends you the batteries before you need them. Each collar also can be set at different levels for each dog depending on their drives, and needs. It even goes low enough to train a 4-month old puppy (even though I dont use more than tone at that age) which is barely detectable, muchless unpleasant, and up to a level I would not chose to ignore.

I did not get this for laziness. I got it to give my dogs more freedom under supervision. Its nice to have the dogs be able to enjoy the whole yard and still feel safe even when 1 or 2 are where I cant see them for a few minutes. They are never out when I am not home, or without supervision.
I live in the country and don't have too much problems with other dogs. The few I have seen, seem to smell that several dogs live here and give our yard a wide berth. My dogs do not chase rabbits or deer through the fence even though they see these animals frequently. A little worried about skunks though.
It is all about the training. My dogs have rarely received a correction from the fence. They know their boundary and just don't test it. Even my crazy high-drive rescue, Libby, who DOES chase, wont chase things through it. She has received a couple more corrections than the other dogs, but she does respect it, and has not crossed it. She IS the kind of dog to test and see if its optional today.
I think because our yard is so big, I have never seen a problem with boundary frustration. Joggers, a neighbor walking a dog, never been a problem. I also have the boundary facing the road, over 50 feet from the road, so people passing don't feel stressed (even though my dogs don't bark at them) and as a buffer.
Also, I DO know people with huskies on them. Its all about the training. I wouldn't have it in the city... but I wouldn't LIVE in the city either. I would live a very paranoid life having pitties in the city. I feel sorry for you guys.
I grew up in the city, I have barrier frustration, I wanted more freedom for my dogs and moved where I feel I can have that.
My dogs yard isn't like confinement, they get to enjoy open spaces, and I like them to enjoy it with me, and still have peace-of-mind.
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Postby a-bull » April 16th, 2006, 8:16 pm

I think it's easy to say why you don't like it if you've never used it . . .

Sounds like your experience with it has been similar to mine, and I too, liked the amount of freedom it offered my dog---which turned out to be the cure for his extreme seperation anxiety. Someone on here asked what was wrong with using a tether . . . well, you can't give a dog an acre of freedom on a tether, and for a dog with the confinement and seperation issues mine had, that freedom was just what the doctor ordered. :) As expensive as the I.F. was at the time I purchased it, fencing in an acre of land with a fence that would confine this particular dog would have been insane . . .

I guess if you live in a busy area, the city, or an area where there are dogs running around loose, I.F. would not be a good idea . . . but it doesn't sound like you live in an area like that either. :)
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Postby rockermom » April 17th, 2006, 5:20 pm

Thank You A bull and Lisa. This helps me with making a decision too. SInce the area where I wanted to put this type of fencing is a large area of my side yard. Since a private dead end road runs in front of my house it is rare that anyone is walking by or driving by other than one neighbor who is a night owl. I feel this would give the freedom to be off leash and the confidence that ROcky wont take off down the street. the rest of the road is also very quiet. I would be interested in the proper way to train a dog for this. ANd which is the best IF.
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Postby Pitcrew » April 18th, 2006, 10:04 am

After I checked out several brands, and their pros and cons, I chose the PetSafe brand. In addition to the problems and solutions already listed, a big one was the fact that the chips in many company's collars can be triggered by televisions, alarm systems, and other electrical sources, therefore confusing the dog with unavoidable, unpredictable, unfair corrections. PetSafe makes their own microchip and to my knowledge does not go off at any signal other than its own frequency.
I had it installed by the company, and felt very secure with their desire for the dogs to be trained thoroughly and correctly. They came and supervised training twice (and would have come as often as necessary), and called to check on how things were going several times. They also came out and checked the equipment anytime I had a problem, in a muddy area my horse put a foot through the buried wire and broke it, and fixed it promptly. Their customers success (and the dogs safety) was more important than the sale. This is important. Their business comes from happy customers.

The most important part of the training is for the dog to thoroughly understand the boundary, and what he is supposed to do when he hears the tone (back off or turn away), long before he EVER receives a correction. This could take a month or more. Most people rush this, and many dogs with little experience receive their first correction in only a couple of days of training, without understanding how to avoid it. The correction (shock) does NOT give them any information. The tone, and boundary line must mean, turn back. The correction comes if they don't make the appropriate choice. Care must be taken that the dogs are not off of a leash or long line, or start removing flags, until they have been successfully trained and proofed (tested with desirable objects, toys, balls or food, crossing the line and the dog still making right decision). Help him be right and make sure he is always successful. It is important that the dogs not learn that they can get past the barrier, even by accident. The flags also must be weaned off slowly, removing every other flag, a week or so later, every other again, over a period of time. Many people remove them too soon or completely before the dog understands the boundary is the AREA, and the tone, NOT the flags. Also use a long-line and wean off verbal assistance so the dog does not rely on your presence as relevant information to the correction.
This is another reason that dogs run the fence. They often think, the barrier is gone, when the flags are gone, and run it before they know what happened or how to fix it. Dog don't generalize well if not trained properly. They did not receive enough information through training. Many dogs who run IF, will avoid flags this shows they just don't understand how to avoid correction, if its not visual. They are not CHOSING to take the correction, they don't understand its avoidable. Its just an unavoidable part of making it to the next yard (or rabbit). I have seen some dogs that weren't trained properly, afraid to leave their porch, afraid of the consequences they don't know how to avoid... as well as dogs to whom the correction is meaningless.
The training can reasonably take a couple of months to do completely and fairly. Don't think "he knows" and cheat your training. Short cuts risk failure and safety.
People MUST understand, is is not the equipment, its the use and timing. It is a learned skill. Dogs CAN be uncontrollable on a choke collar, or prong collar. Does that mean the equipment is faulty? No. They weren't trained to respond to it properly. Equipment can make it easier, but used incorrectly, will not be successful.
If IF isn't good for your situation, don't use it. But it can provide a lot of safe freedom, when used properly.
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Postby a-bull » April 18th, 2006, 10:54 am

Great post. That's exactly how the fencing works/should work, if you do it properly. There are no shortcuts to success.

I purchased the Inivsible Fencing brand sysytem, because at the time, I think it was one of the only ones available, (back around 15 years ago). Even back then the ASPCA endorsed it, and still does. I installed it myself in order to save $$$, because like I said, I had around an acre fenced in. You can rent a trench digger to help if you do it yourself. I think the fencing system is cheaper now, though, so it's probably just easier to let them install it if you're doing a good sized area.

We did not opt for assistance training, but I.F. was available to answer questions and did. I.F. claimed other transmitters would not interfere with their system, and it did not appear that they ever did. There was a unit in our house that had a light on it to let us know if the system was out, and again, that never happened except in the case of power outages, in which case we just didn't let the dog out.

As far as battery replacement, I.F. had a program that sent you a new battery before you needed one, so that issue was taken care of as well. I live in an area with cold winters, so you do want to check your battery more frequently in the colder months, as they seem to run down quicker.

Because I didn't really like or use the correction aspect of I.F. but once during training, (and then I hung my guy's collar to just use the warning beep aspect of the system---which is not a proper usage of the system), I think in retrospect, I would have opted for a sytem that just uses the flags, warning beep, and mega training.
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Postby dogcrazyjen » April 18th, 2006, 11:52 am

I have seen some used to great success, and I have seen the problems caused by them. I would not use them myself, but I have met some dogs for whom it would be a great option. For me, it is a false sense of security. Dogs, wild animals, and people can still get into the yard, and I have one dog who is very protective of the property, and two who are reactive with other dogs, as well as two neighbor dog who come though out property on a regular basis.

Also, you are trusting the dogs training to keep him self-policed. That is a big what if, espeicially with high drive, stubborn dogs. I am not saying it cannot be done, but it comes down to trusting that you trained properly.

If the dog is propery trained, no one is going to be able to steal the dog unless they carry him. The folks I know with well trained IF dogs have to drive the dogs over the threshhold in a car-you cannot even drag them over it.

On the other hand, IF can build aggression issues if used in a busy area. The one woman I know who had issues was almost sued twice because the dog was charging the fenceline and built aggression. Once, a woman stood screaming at the fenceline too terrified to move(the dog would not break the line, but was acting like it would, and snarling visciously), the other was the NYSEG man who actually was bit because he came to read the meter and the dog came around the corner and nailed him. You could have this happen with chain link, but then you have a solid fence to both keep people out and assure people the dog cannot get to them.

If you live in the country, and are using it properly, I can see some serious advantages for them. However, for dogs in town, I think the potential for problems outweighs the good.
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Postby a-bull » April 18th, 2006, 12:59 pm

You should have to drive your dog out of the yard or leash them to get them out of the yard. That's part of the training. They should know there are very specific circumstances under which they can leave, and only those circumstances . . . again, if they've been trained properly.

Some dogs have the potential to become aggressive when contained in any busy area. If you live in a busy area and your dog is tethered, kenneled, or behind a chain link fence, the potential for develooping that type of aggression is there.

I would not use I.F. in a really busy area, nor would I put an aggressive dog on it because nevermind another dog coming into your yard---a child could wander into your yard. The dog I had on it was not aggressive.

If your homeowners requires containment of your dog, I would always check to be sure I.F. is an acceptable means of containment . . . and my guess would be that it is not . . . :|
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Postby ccc2006 » April 18th, 2006, 1:17 pm

I have used the Invisible Fence for 6 years now. I didn't choose that form of fencing due to laziness, but rather the cost to fence my yard ran around $28,000. Yes, I did get many estimates, and they all came in around that price. The problem being is my driveway is rather long and extends completely around the back of the house for parking. So, the added expense of a large motorized gate was included in that. Coupled with the need to fence 1 acre.
Plus, we have certain zoning issues which are different for every township. One can't put up fencing close to the street because of visibility concerns imposed upon us by the township, so the only thing you can use is wrought iron fencing/aluminum wanna be wrought iron fencing. Big bucks either way.
The only complaint I have about the Invisible Fencing is that any animal can come into the yard. But, my dogs are never just allowed to roam around out there without me. I supervise at all times and they are well trained.
The main complaint people have from what I've read, is the incidences of dogs willing to take the hit. The only thing I can think of regarding that, is the quality of the invisible fencing and the training of the dog. You can spend $200 or you can spend $3000 like I did. Or a person can be lazy about it and thusly the dog has not received the proper training.
I have mega high drive dogs and they will stop on a dime in full pursuit of a rabbit. That is because I took the training very seriously from day one - paid extra to have the company come out for 2 weeks in training sessions and I took over from there. And the collars are set breed-specific as well.
When I had it initially installed in winter, I finally had all the flags removed by the following late fall. The idea behind that was to remove 1 flag every other day, until there were none. It's a very time consuming process if done properly, thusly I don't use it for foster dogs.
Also, the dogs were not allowed to leave the property whatsoever for the initial 30 days of training.
As far as concerns of the dogs repeatedly shocking themselves, I have not had that problem. They took 2 hits in the initial training, and that was that.
Our goal in the future is to have a solid fence, but I still won't take any false security from those either.
Someone mentioned a meter man possibly getting nailed, well, that can happen with any fence because the utility companies maintain certain rights to come on the property.
And I do know people that already had solid fencing, that were forced to put in invisible fencing as well because their dogs could scale a 6 ft. stockade fence. So the fences do have their uses and their downfalls. I really think it comes down to the training of the dog and the supervision of the owner.
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Postby a-bull » April 18th, 2006, 2:31 pm

Another great post and another good experience . . . nice to hear.

I agree with you regarding mail people, newspaper people, meter readers, etc.---they are all entitled to enter your property, so if you have an aggressive dog, they should not be loose on your property regardless of what type of fencing you have. In our town, if your dog is deemed viscious by the mailman, the post office is entitled to post a "Viscios Dog" sign on your mailbox.

My dog, too, was very high drive and would chase small critters, (except cats), but stop, usually even prior to hearing the warning beep---and I see your dog only got corrected twice, (mine was once).

Sounds like you did the training right, and thus had a positive experience. I think some people get impatient and want a quick fix. They think by letting the dog get corrected constantly that he'll train himself, but all it does is confuse the dog and potentially cause all of the negative problems suggested. You're right---the not letting the dog off of the property during the training, and leaving those flags up the right amount of time are very key.
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Postby SisMorphine » April 18th, 2006, 2:46 pm

mnp13 wrote:any high drive dog that is fast will not be easily contained. By the time the warning beep sounds they are through the fence and out. You'll never find a greyhound owner with an IF.

Exactly.

When a Greyhound spots prey all senses except for sight are shut off. Literally they cannot hear or feel anything. Though I know that Greys are the extreme case, it makes you wonder about other highly prey driven dogs and exactly HOW prey driven they have to be to be on a Grey's level . . .
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Postby SisMorphine » April 18th, 2006, 2:52 pm

I just wanted to add that I have no fence. I leash walk for everything. It sucks. I deal.

There is an IF on the property already, fully functioning. All I would have to do is purchase a collar for Halo. But I won't. He will be leash walked until the day that I fence in the yard, along with Wally and Venus.
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