Answers for some, information for others. (long post)

This is where to talk about Pit Bulls!

Postby Chris Fraize » March 26th, 2006, 12:47 am

Hello all,

No, Laura that is not what I am saying, that is what you are inferring. No health checks are perfect. None of them! I have developed my ways and others have their own.

I am sorry about your friend’s dog. That is sad. I assume they had done all the health checks? In the end nothing could have helped that dog. We all do the best we can with the best stock we can get our hands on and hope for the best. :|

People that want to complain will always find something to complain about. If it’s “He doesn’t OFA” today it will be, “He doesn’t do ATTS tomorrow”. Then doing “Pit Bulls shouldn’t do bite work” the next day. Then next week “it’s dangerous to teach dogs to bite legs instead of the arm”, and so on and so on and so on. I breed for myself and only when I need a dog. Don’t worry so much about me. The only Breedings you can control are your own. :wink:

I remember posting on a working dog board many years ago about decoy work. I got flamed because I wasn’t a “certified decoy” in that discipline. So, off I go, half way across the country and at the expense of much time and money and certified as a decoy.

The next time I posted about decoy work on the same board the flamed me because I had never titled a dog in that discipline. So, off I go, half way across the country and at the expense of much time and money and titled the dog in that discipline.

The next time I posted about decoy work on the same board folks flamed me because I had never titled a dog in that discipline at the highest levels. So, off I go, half way across the country and at the expense of much time and money and titled the dog in the highest levels of that discipline and so on and so on and so on. No matter what I did I just couldn’t make anyone happy. Why? Because most message boards are full of folks that are long on opinion and short on communication skills. I like this board and it seems to me different here. However, I am starting to get that old message board feeling!

The bottom line is that people have many reasons and beliefs and maybe even have a personal issue with someone and are never happy with anything that anyone else is doing unless it is exactly what you believe to be correct. I could never make all of you happy with how I breed, my training or handling or even dog ownership for that matter.

Remember, I never posted a litter or dog here for sale. There is so much more to this debate than can be posted here. Besides I type with two fingers and have a business to run. Lol Odnarb decided to make me a topic without asking me a single thing about my so called program. :|

Maybe sometime we can sit down collectively or in pairs and discuss this further in person. Which I suspect would be difficult for some. But for now, I’m done. :D

Safe training,
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Postby odnarb » March 26th, 2006, 3:11 am

Chris Fraize wrote:Remember, I never posted a litter or dog here for sale. There is so much more to this debate than can be posted here. Besides I type with two fingers and have a business to run. Lol Odnarb decided to make me a topic without asking me a single thing about my so called program. :|



Um, my initial question was, "Why are there no Punchline dogs in the OFA database?" That is a question. I was also asked to name names.


Heart testing - If the dog’s heart is not 100 % (keeping the dog from working). If it is genetic the dog is euthanized .



In all honesty, I don't have all that big of a problem with you. You aren't the reason for BSL, you aren't placing tons of dogs, and I have no desire to get a dog from you. There are tons of breeders like you that make excuses as to why they don't need to be completely responsible. I just find it a very strange mindset when you have already produced a dog with heart defects. But, from the comment above, you seem to be pretty ignorant in the very nature of how various types of heart disease progress.

But, I DO think these threads proved my point quite well! There was lots of support for you when you posted your excuses for not completely utilizing the science of today to evaluate the health status of your breeding stock that can't be seen in day to day working. The next breeder that isn't one of the cool kids probably won't be treated the same way.
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Postby Red » March 26th, 2006, 7:07 am

Breeding a dog to meet conformation standards (looks)? I just don’t get it. Form WILL follow function. Trying to breed dogs based on the idea that function follows form is (to me) just unwise. I realize that this can be difficult for folks to understand.


So these breeders who fully health test their dogs are waisting their time? There isn't one thing that follows the other, working ability and sound structure go together.The way a dog's body is structured says how much the dog can handle, as far as work and in the long run.With such a non-stop attitude the breed has we can see dogs working their hearts out even if their bodies are structured to fall apart, sooner or later.
This reminds of the gamebred dogs whose breeders swore they were healthy, basing their opinion on how much the dogs could work, in and out of the box.Sure they worked a jenny for hours but that had nothing to do with their dysplastic hips and elbows, it was their attitude.Unless a dog was completelly crippled it kept working.Did it make it healthy?Not quite.It doesn't take a genious to figure out what happened in the long run.There is no excuse for any breeder with a little ethic not to fully health test their dogs. Breeding for yourself doesn't excuse it.Why end up euthanizing offsprings that don't fit your standards, as far as health, when you could role out major problems by appropriately testing the parents? There is a reason why there are specialists in different veterinarian areas, to better determine a dog's health. A specialist can see what your regular "all around" vet doesn't.The fact you have produced a dog with health problems is the reason why you should health test.
I have a question though, totally aside from health testing..as someone who loves the breed, why do you feel you should protection train pit bulls?
I have no problem with Sch or ring sport but protection training is so not a part of this breed.


But, I DO think these threads proved my point quite well! There was lots of support for you when you posted your excuses for not completely utilizing the science of today to evaluate the health status of your breeding stock that can't be seen in day to day working. The next breeder that isn't one of the cool kids probably won't be treated the same way.


It wouldn't be the first time.
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Postby bustersmama » March 26th, 2006, 11:59 am

Good points Red.

I also feel like a bit of what Amiee mentioned about "The next breeder that isn't one of the cool kids probably won't be treated the same way." holds some truth to it. Maybe it is because some of the board members here have seen what has been produced and actually met the guy? :|

I hope you can come back for a few more posts Chris!

I also tend to agree with the whole "if it is there, why not use it?" when it comes down to the health tests available today. I completely agree that nothing is 100% accurate, but I can't beleive it wouldnt benifit breeding stock at all. It seems to me a combination of all you do, PLUS the health testing you dont do would be pretty close to the "perfect" dog I think every breeder strives for.
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Postby bustersmama » March 26th, 2006, 12:02 pm

edited to fix - I completely agree that nothing is 100% accurate, but I can't beleive it wouldnt benifit the breeding stock at all if you decided to health test.**


The lack of comma usage in my previous post is bad, sorry folks!
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Postby mnp13 » March 26th, 2006, 12:12 pm

odnarb wrote:There are tons of breeders like you that make excuses as to why they don't need to be completely responsible.


Actually, it sound like he has a list of well thought out reasons for what he does and does not do. Personally, I disagree with some of his reasons, but he can back up his choices.

odnarb wrote:I just find it a very strange mindset when you have already produced a dog with heart defects.


EVERY breeder ends up with genetic defects at some point or another, it is inevitable.

odnarb wrote:The next breeder that isn't one of the cool kids probably won't be treated the same way.


Oh give me a break. I'll point out that most of the staff here actually disagrees with him. I'll also point out (again) that he has never advertised litters, tried to sell dogs or anything else.

I know of more than one member here who has a pregnant female. Their business is their business. I don't agree with what they are doing, but they didn't ask my opinion and they have not 'advertised' that they have a litter on the way. If/when someone steps over that line they will be held accountable.
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Postby mnp13 » March 26th, 2006, 12:23 pm

Red wrote:I have a question though, totally aside from health testing..as someone who loves the breed, why do you feel you should protection train pit bulls?
I have no problem with Sch or ring sport but protection training is so not a part of this breed.


there are a few threads about that already. here are a couple links (I'm sure I'm missing some)

http://www.pitbulltalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=1112
http://www.pitbulltalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=1097
http://www.pitbulltalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=806

If you want to discuss it further, that's 100% fine, but please start a new thread in the training section.
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Postby odnarb » March 26th, 2006, 12:23 pm

mnp13 wrote:EVERY breeder ends up with genetic defects at some point or another, it is inevitable.



And typically, when you actually TEST for these genetic defects, it makes cleaning up the mess a whole lot easier. Take a look at the Boxer. While heart disease is a big problem still, they are making a LOT of progress. Especially in the UK.


Oh give me a break. I'll point out that most of the staff here actually disagrees with him. I'll also point out (again) that he has never advertised litters, tried to sell dogs or anything else.



I am curious. If it is so terrible that I'm singling out Chris, why did you ask me to name names?

If you make yourself known in the world, and have a website for your kennel, you should probably be prepared to answer questions when you appear on various message boards for the breed. That is the nature of the dog world, and the internet.
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Postby mnp13 » March 26th, 2006, 12:24 pm

bustersmama wrote:Maybe it is because some of the board members here have seen what has been produced and actually met the guy?


that would be it.
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Postby mnp13 » March 26th, 2006, 12:31 pm

odnarb wrote:
Oh give me a break. I'll point out that most of the staff here actually disagrees with him. I'll also point out (again) that he has never advertised litters, tried to sell dogs or anything else.


I am curious. If it is so terrible that I'm singling out Chris, why did you ask me to name names?

If you make yourself known in the world, and have a website for your kennel, you should probably be prepared to answer questions when you appear on various message boards for the breed. That is the nature of the dog world, and the internet.


Like I said before, you have posted about the 'kennels that everyone loves that have dirty secrets' many times. You posted that in the first DJ thread that started just after she got Havoc. I'm sure that Chris was not on your list, and had I not come home with Riggs, he would still not be on your list.

You named Chris because he is here, then you added in RoKi and Matrix because I forced your hand. Chris is a big boy, he can defend himself, however it looks to me like you've gone past 'questioning' and headed to 'targeting'
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Postby odnarb » March 26th, 2006, 1:01 pm

mnp13 wrote:Like I said before, you have posted about the 'kennels that everyone loves that have dirty secrets' many times. You posted that in the first DJ thread that started just after she got Havoc. I'm sure that Chris was not on your list, and had I not come home with Riggs, he would still not be on your list.



I can't deny that. Chris didn't fall into the category of being oggled until here. He wasn't well known to the average Pit Bull owner until his dogs started getting showcased on these boards. Why would I bring up a guy that nobody had ever heard of when making a point that people excuse and gush over breeders with pretty dogs and titles even if they don't fit the responsible standard that they themselves are preaching?


Chris is a big boy, he can defend himself, however it looks to me like you've gone past 'questioning' and headed to 'targeting'



You made yourself a name and proudly wore the title (ws it Forum Bitch? don't remember...) for the same behavior. If Chris had appeared on the forum before you got banned and the two of you got chummy, you yourself would have ripped him a new bunghole. But now that he's your friend, it's "targeting."

Color me flabbergasted!
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Postby cheekymunkee » March 26th, 2006, 1:47 pm

I'll point out that most of the staff here actually disagrees with him.


And I would be one of them. I beleive if you are going to breed a litter of dogs you should use every tool available to you to insure the litter is as healthy & free from genetic defects as possible. Culling after the fact as the problems begin to show up is a little late IMO. BUT I am glad to see you breed very little and I am glad to see they are not available to the gen pop. I just don't really see why you don't cover all your basis. Heart problems usually aren't known until the dog is suffering or dead. Wouldn't dopplering the sire & dam before hand prevent this?
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Postby mnp13 » March 26th, 2006, 1:55 pm

odnarb wrote:
Chris is a big boy, he can defend himself, however it looks to me like you've gone past 'questioning' and headed to 'targeting'


You made yourself a name and proudly wore the title (ws it Forum Bitch? don't remember...) for the same behavior. If Chris had appeared on the forum before you got banned and the two of you got chummy, you yourself would have ripped him a new bunghole. But now that he's your friend, it's "targeting."


Yup, that would be the title. :) I had a few others, but we'll stick with that.

If Chris had showed up on PBF, or even here, and said "Hey, guess what, I breed Pit Bulls, I do it my way, my way is the right way and you can all smurf off. Anyone want to buy a puppy?" I would have responded quite differently.

However, that is not what he did.

He and I have had looooooong discussions about what he does and why he does it. That's part of the reason you're not seeing it here, because the conversations have happened in person or on the phone. Have I 'ripped into him'? Not exactly, but I have questioned (and questioned and questioned and questioned....)

It's no different than your opinion of Diane - you have met her so you have a different angle on who she is and why she does what she does. I know Diane only from who she has presented herself as on line. I'm am 100% sure that the online Diane is different from the inperson Diane. You defend her because you know the 'other side'.

And there is another level to this. The dogs are not for sale to JQP. (In the case of Riggs' litter, the rest of the litter went back to Card and he was the one who sold them.) Chris and April don't belive in pet quality, the dogs go to working homes or... well... they don't go anywhere.

If you only breed for yourself, then you are the only one who suffers for your own decisions.

And to sum it all up... I used to see breeding as a strict black and white issue. No gray at ALL, EVER. That opinion has changed to a degree.
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Postby SisMorphine » March 26th, 2006, 3:27 pm

mnp13 wrote:And to sum it all up... I used to see breeding as a strict black and white issue. No gray at ALL, EVER. That opinion has changed to a degree.

Interesting, I was just discussing this same point with people today . . .
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Postby Red » March 27th, 2006, 1:28 am

If you only breed for yourself, then you are the only one who suffers for your own decisions.


Not really, dogs will suffer as well.Dogs with health problems or other conditions will suffer.Of course if we care to think about the dogs and not about ourselves only.It seems that this person has no problem euthanizing pet quality dogs, if they don't fit his standards of work, so I am sure there won't be any issue with euthanizing offsprings with health problems.That is an easy solution, that could be avoided by proper health testing.Not a 100% guarantee but it is certainly better than chosing not to do it. I have a hard time understanding why you don't see the point here, having seen first hand the predicaments toward others, on other forums and on the same issues.Maybe it is because you got a dog from that guy and now you can't shoot yourself in the foot.Anyway, either we support very little breeding done with ethic and the same standards/requirements/ethic apply to EVERYONE or we accept and even support unethical breeding.Not to health test breeding stock, no matter what fancy excuses someone comes up with, is unethical and just plain wrong. I don't know how much grey there is in there.
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Postby mnp13 » March 27th, 2006, 10:54 am

Red wrote:Maybe it is because you got a dog from that guy and now you can't shoot yourself in the foot.


that's not it at all. He wasn't (and isn't) looking for my approval. The dog is mine, to do with as I wish. Should I ever decide I don't want him he goes back to Chris but that is the only stipulation that came with Riggs.

Red wrote:Anyway, either we support very little breeding done with ethic and the same standards/requirements/ethic apply to EVERYONE or we accept and even support unethical breeding.Not to health test breeding stock, no matter what fancy excuses someone comes up with, is unethical and just plain wrong. I don't know how much grey there is in there.


If you mean "we" as the board, no, the board does not support or endorse any breeders. If you mean "we" as the Pit Bull community, there are different opinions in that community.
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Postby dogcrazyjen » March 27th, 2006, 2:09 pm

I have one request. Instead of saying 'cull' or 'euthanize', lets put the cards on the table and say "kill".

I am so saddened that there is an entire section here devoted to rescue, that most of us here have rescue dogs who would have been killed otherwise, and someone here is casually killing off good puppies because they aren't perfect. I understand that it is not done often, but that it is done at all and condoned perplexes me.

These puppies could be spayed or nuetered and found good homes. They are (we assume) solid tempered dogs which would work in a normal home. Most dogs are not mentally solid enough to deal with bite work, nor physically solid enough to deal with the demands that a heavy hitting sports dog can handle, but most dogs will never be put in those situations. It is creating an arbitrary metric of stability then killing dogs which do not fit that metric.

I can understand killing a dog which has even moderate temperment issues if an appropriate savvy home cannot be found. However that is not what is being talked about here.

It is none of my business if someone chooses to have a little and kill off most of that litter for personal reasons. However I certainly do not have to sit by and say nothing.

And while I admire Chris for his training, I am not going to suck up and agree with everything he says or does. We very much disagree on some things. I am cool with that, as long as I can say my peace.

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Postby mnp13 » March 27th, 2006, 2:20 pm

dogcrazyjen wrote:And while I admire Chris for his training, I am not going to suck up and agree with everything he says or does. We very much disagree on some things. I am cool with that, as long as I can say my peace.


Just so I can avoid being called a suck up again. Please take a look at this thread:

http://www.pitbulltalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=649

I was ok with culling puppies long before I knew who Chris was.

And you are always welcome to state your opinions, but if you wish to discuss the ethics of culling litters please add your thoughts to the thread that I referenced above - just so that things can kinda stay on topic.
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Postby Maryellen » March 27th, 2006, 2:31 pm

he should be health testing his stock. to not health test is taking a crap shoot at the pups when they are born. and to cull the non working ones, well i disagree with that as well. i totally disagree and feel that no breeder regardless of who and what they are breeding for should be breeding right now..
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Postby cheekymunkee » March 27th, 2006, 2:36 pm

And while I admire Chris for his training, I am not going to suck up and agree with everything he says or does. We very much disagree on some things. I am cool with that, as long as I can say my peace.


Jen, you are ALWAYS welcome to speak your mind. No one here agrees with each other 100% of the time. Even we staff members do not always see eye to eye on things and that's ok.
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