The TRUTH about Lila

This is where to talk about Pit Bulls!

Postby msvette2u » March 19th, 2006, 12:00 pm

We live in the country and, no, I don't think it's odd to take a loaded gun with you while you go for a walk, which is what he was doing.

Growing up in Alaska, it was the same way, my dad carried a loaded gun with us when we went out for walks, in case we ran upon a bear.

I don't see anything odd with that, no.

Maybe city dwellers might :| (Well, depending on the city maybe you need a loaded gun there too!)
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Postby Purple » March 19th, 2006, 12:00 pm

-- i think the smear campaigns that are being attempted make the alleger look foolish, and prevent us from giving lila the diginity she deserves --


But, from the sound of the original post, it seems you dredged it up first, correct?
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Postby SpiritFngrz » March 19th, 2006, 12:01 pm

eric i love all your half-ass statements since you were not there. You do not remember me PMing you Wednesday morning- with my concerns that Lila started showing aggression, of which you told me to just "talk sweetly to her" which I did.
Then that night, when things started getting worse, the 4 messages I left on your cell phone. Interesting how you leave those tidbits out. The green dot was not elaborated on for us, and we didn't really know to ask what it meant.
This was not maternal aggression, if you had seen her, you would've known that. She let everyone and anyone pick up her babies- for the first few days-she was sweet, but it was because she was SOO weak. Pictures are soo deceiving, we were shocked when we saw her in person. She couldn't make it up the stairs for goodness sake. We fed her 6+ times a day, and she started gaining her strength back.
Wow, I didn't know I was supposed to just "get bit" and see what happens with that.
You should all know that the next day when I spoke to Eric, of course I was hysterical- and he told me that getting bit was "no big deal" because once he accidentally got bit while breaking up a female/female dog fight. Um...welcome to the THINNEST argument ever! How is accidentally getting bit in the middle of a dog fight the same as getting attacked by a human aggressive dog? Getting bit- probably worse- was a certainty. I wonder, if I had been taken to the hospital would we still be talking about this- dredging up the past 6 mos. later? I HIGHLY doubt it.
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Postby Sue » March 19th, 2006, 12:01 pm

clarity wrote:
Why did doreen keep saying lila was a sweetheart??

e





Eric, you should know that a dogs true temp usually doesn't come to light until they have had time to acclimate to their surrounding... It took one of my dogs months to relax.
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Postby msvette2u » March 19th, 2006, 12:01 pm

clarity wrote:i don't think "mauling" would have occurred, had doreen left the room, and brian crated the dog --


You "don't think" but, you were not there.
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Postby SpiritFngrz » March 19th, 2006, 12:04 pm

clarity wrote:i don't think "mauling" would have occurred, had doreen left the room, and brian crated the dog --
You know this how--because you've seen my house? I was cornered- no way to exit, and no way to grab this dog without getting hurt--

there are a lot of "what ifs" to be asked here --


-- what if brian accidentally shot his wife?
That would not have happened, my husband is a dead-on shot and I was not in the line of fire. Again, something you wouldn't knowdo you know how odd it is to carry a loaded firearm around the house?

okay, i will check back later --

msvette2u wrote:No, I asked "What would your reaction be, NOW, had Brian gotten mauled?" (Can you answer that?)

As for shutting the door, Doreen was IN the room. What kind of man shuts his wife in the room with a dog that just tried to attack HIM?

She didn't mention it (aggression) because she didn't SEE it until a day or two into the deal.

You and I both know that there are times when pit bulls are unstable due to breeding, and circumstances (such as, she's never been shown love by humans).
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Postby SpiritFngrz » March 19th, 2006, 12:05 pm

Purple wrote:
-- i think the smear campaigns that are being attempted make the alleger look foolish, and prevent us from giving lila the diginity she deserves --


But, from the sound of the original post, it seems you dredged it up first, correct?


Correct- I didn't feel the need to publish this on the front of the daily news...Eric apparently feels the need to dredge it up to...what? Make us look bad and him like a prince? Far from it I'm afraid
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Postby Maryellen » March 19th, 2006, 12:08 pm

if the shelter was sooo pitsavvy eric, then they should have never released lila to your rescue being that she was showing signs of aggression supposedly. they should have called you and told you. and you never put an inexperienced foster home that never had a mother dog w/ pups in that situation. you get a more experienced foster home that had that type of experience.

and, i am not bashing you, so think what you want, but same sex adoptions should not be done inrescue.. its too much of a chance that down the road the 2 females or 2 males in that home will fight. and since you said you only did that one same sex adoption, explain to me earl and yoda, both male dogs, yoda was in your program and you adopted hm into another male dog home. irrregardless of whether earl is a pit or not, you adopted a male pit into a male dog home. so that makes 2 that are shown on your website.
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Postby Eric - SPBR » March 19th, 2006, 12:08 pm

haha -- i'm not trying to look like prince, doreen, but weren't you the one who quietly told people that she died of heartworm --

-- and that you'd appreciate if they kept that to themselves?

That's not dredging, but when you're over here on this forum degrading me personally, when I went to extreme measure to protect "your story" for the puppies' sake, that's sad --
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Postby Eric - SPBR » March 19th, 2006, 12:10 pm

if you think male/male households don't work with pits, maryellen, i have lost all interest to argue with you -- your breed knolwedge just suffered a serious blow with this statement --

-- anyway, as i said, i am off to tend to my dogs --

eric

Maryellen wrote:if the shelter was sooo pitsavvy eric, then they should have never released lila to your rescue being that she was showing signs of aggression supposedly. they should have called you and told you. and you never put an inexperienced foster home that never had a mother dog w/ pups in that situation. you get a more experienced foster home that had that type of experience.

and, i am not bashing you, so think what you want, but same sex adoptions should not be done inrescue.. its too much of a chance that down the road the 2 females or 2 males in that home will fight. and since you said you only did that one same sex adoption, explain to me earl and yoda, both male dogs, yoda was in your program and you adopted hm into another male dog home. irrregardless of whether earl is a pit or not, you adopted a male pit into a male dog home. so that makes 2 that are shown on your website.
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Postby SpiritFngrz » March 19th, 2006, 12:10 pm

Also everyone please take into consideration that we did not just go on with our daily lives after this incident. NO ONE felt more horrible about this than us. Ask our parents- we were INCONSOLABLE. Anyone who wanted to cruelly shoot an animal would take it outside in the backyard- NOT in their own house! Come on now! It was the absolute LAST thing my husband would EVER want to do, and in the entire time I've known him, have NEVER seen him more upset and hysterical than that night. Anyone who is assuming otherwise is blatantly wrong. He is an incredibly gentle, kind, generous law-abiding citizen, and for those making judgements based on half-truths, shame on you. If he wasn't there, I don't know what would've happened. Again, if I had been hospitalized, would we still be talking about this 6 mos. later? I don't think so....

Eric, please just quit while you're behind. Your assumptions have zero merit, and are ridiculous. You never met this dog- we had only the best intentions for her in mind, and at heart.
You are just making yourself look stupid.
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Postby Sue » March 19th, 2006, 12:10 pm

clarity wrote:doreen had a the full force of a the forum behind her, offering help and advice, and people, like alyssa, going to her house to help.

she offered to help, and was open to advice (and donations), and everything seemed positive --

-- these two adults seemed fully competent and ready to foster, and we were willing to help them in any way we could to get everyone great homes --

-- if you don't start somewhere, how do you ever do anything?

msvette2u wrote:Here's a very good thread where Eric is looking for a foster for the mom and babies.
http://spbr.org/pbsmiles/upload/showthread.php?t=3043

You can note that Doreen had apparently never fostered babies before, since she asks alot of questions about the process.

Perhaps, Eric, you should have gone with a more experienced foster home for the mom and babies?


You don't start with a nursing mother with a possible fighting background that had obviously been abused. You, as the rescue, should have been able to make that decision for them. They did not have the experinece to make that decision themselves.
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Postby Maryellen » March 19th, 2006, 12:11 pm

CODE OF ETHICS FOR PIT BULL RESCUE

I. Introduction and Mission Statement
Introduction: This Code of Ethics was compiled by a committee of seasoned rescuers and members of the Pit Bull Owners Alliance. It serves to provide guidelines for Pit Bull Rescuers. The term “Pit Bull” as used throughout this document refers to dogs believed to be purebred American Pit Bull Terriers (or American Staffordshire Terriers). Foster homes employed by signers of this Code of Ethics shall also be bound by the guidelines set forth herein.
Mission Statement: The Ethical Pit Bull Rescuer holds restoration of the pit bull breed as paramount to their mission and activities. He/she holds public perception of the pit bull in the forefront of each decision and endeavor, and strives to place only the best representatives of the breed into homes that are fully capable of providing adequate care and training. Additionally, the responsible Pit Bull Rescuer understands that such activities require extensive knowledge of pit bull history, temperament, and behavior, and therefore educates themselves to the fullest extent before presenting themselves as a qualified, ethical Rescuer.

II. Guidelines For The Pit Bull Rescuer
SECTION 1: Selection of Rescue Dogs For Potential Placement.
SECTION 2: Care & Handling of Rescue Dogs.
SECTION 3: Placement of Rescue Dogs.
SECTION 4: General Professional Conduct.
SECTION 1: Selection of Rescue Dogs For Potential Placement.


1. Only accepts and places breed ambassadors that meet the Standard for Pit Bull Temperament. (See ITEM 1 - below)
2. Conducts preliminary temperament evaluations before accepting new dogs. Continues to test dogs in a variety of settings after they are brought into rescue. Holds dogs for at least a month before placing them up for adoption.
3. Will choose among many available dogs for the one(s) that best fit the skills of the Rescuer and within the scope of available resources.
4. When a Pit Bull Rescuer is selecting dogs that are clearly pit bull mixes, he/she will opt for those dogs that are predominantly pit bull and display classically sound pit bull temperaments. (See ITEM 2 - below).
5. Will carefully select and place puppies based on the guidelines set forth in ITEM 3 of this document.
6. When presented with a dog that is not potentially a good candidate for future adoption, Rescuer will either encourage humane euthanasia of the dog, or, if reasonable, will take legal possession of the dog in order to facilitate humane euthanasia.
7. When taking custody of dogs already in the legal possession of an owner or organization, the Pit Bull Rescuer will require the submission of a signed surrender form which clearly states transfer of ownership to the Rescuer.


SECTION 2: Care & Handling of Rescue Dogs.
1. Will provide adequate vet care, nutrition, housing and daily exercise, as well as basic training for each dog.
2. Willing to humanely euthanize any unsound or unadoptable pit bull in his/her possession if the dog presents highly undesirable behavior and/or is incurably ill beyond reasonable veterinary care.
3. Spays and neuters all dogs (including puppies), administers rabies vaccine and microchip prior to placement.
4. Does not breed rescued dogs.
5. Socializes pit bulls with other dogs based on individual temperament. Socializes pit bulls with many people in many situations and environments. Teaches acceptable leash manners around other dogs and trains them to behave as ambassadors before placement.
6. Uses proper containment to prevent dogs from running at large, including: sufficient fencing, crate, dog run and/or kennel at home, and proper use of leash and collar outside of the home. Insists that adopters use the same methods.
7. Acknowledges, understands, and accepts pit bull dog aggression as a breed trait and will follow standard protocol which includes separating the unsupervised pit bull from other dogs to prevent fights and ensure successful interaction between dogs in their possession. Requires the same from adopters.
8. Acknowledges, understands and accepts that aggression towards animals other than dogs is also a trait in the pit bull breed and will carefully manage dogs in their possession to prevent injury to other animals via standard protocol which includes separating the unsupervised pit bull from other animals. Requires the same from adopters.
9. Will not allow pregnant females to go full-term when late term spay resources are available.
10. Will manage, care for, and place puppies based on the guidelines set forth in Item 3 of this document.


SECTION 3: Placement of Rescue Dogs.
1. Screens potential adopters through an application process, interview, home check and reference check. Provides extensive pit bull breed education to the potential home and only places with qualified, stable, competent homes that are able manage a pit bull in a manner consistent with the guidelines set forth in this document.
2. Understands that adult dogs make better adoption prospects over puppies. Educates adopters to the fact that a dog's true temperament and dog aggression potential is not known until maturity (approximately 3 years of age). Does not place dogs under 12 months of age for full adoption. Does not place dogs that have been in the possession of Rescuer for less than one month.
3. Does not place dogs in pairs or groups.
4. Uses legally binding contracts that ensure safe and secure homes for dogs that are adopted. This document shall also provide legal grounds for repossession of dogs that are not being cared for in a manner consistent with the guidelines set forth in this document. The Pit Bull Rescuer will follow up on placement and continue to keep in touch with adoptive homes for an indefinite period of time in order to monitor the dog's progress. Reclaims adopted dogs from situations or circumstances that prove to be neglectful, or unsafe for the pit bull, other dogs/animals or humans, or from homes that can no longer care for them. Reclaims dogs that begin to present with abnormal human aggression.
5. Remains a resource to the adoptive home for the life of the dog. Will work with adoptive home to help remedy any problems and/or issues that arise due to adoption of a pit bull in order to ensure successful life long adoption, if this is reasonable and realistic. Otherwise refer to Section Three: No. 4 above.
6. When using foster homes, the Pit Bull Rescuer will require the submission of a signed foster contract which allows the Rescuer to maintain full control and possession of the dogs.


SECTION 4: General Professional Conduct.
1. Works closely with local animal control and shelter staff to establish good rescue relationships and will offer breed knowledge and support to shelters and other rescue groups where possible.
2. Presents themselves professionally and responsibly.
3. Acts as a community resource for breed education and information, and provides materials and public outreach where possible.
4. Will not buy dogs to 'rescue' them, as this only serves the breeder.
5. Will label pit bulls and pit bull mixes (see Item 2) as accurately as is possible and will not misrepresent a dog's breed/mix in order to boost adoption interest.
6. Will not label dogs as 'bait' or 'fighting' animals without substantial evidence and/or witnesses (the mere presence of fight wounds does not indicate that a dog was used as 'bait' nor as a 'fighting dog').

III. Additional Information
ITEM 1: THE STANDARD FOR PIT BULL TEMPERAMENT:
The ‘Temperament Correct’ pit bull: seeks out human interaction; is responsive, biddable and eager to please; may be genetically predisposed to aggression towards other dogs or animals; is appropriately submissive; is well balanced and optimistic; enjoys handling; presents good eye contact; is able to be calm in the presence of other dogs on leash or - if initially leash reactive - can learn how to tolerate their presence; is willing to connect with handler during high arousal; can be handled safely even in times of high arousal; accepts a reasonable amount of confinement; drops arousal levels quickly when removed from a stressful situation; is social with people of all types; is responsive and good natured; is never aggressive towards humans.

ITEM 2: Pit Bull Mixes:
A. When dealing with Pit Bull mixes, the Pit Bull Rescuer should adhere to the same standard and code of ethics they do when dealing with purebred pit bulls. Pit Bull mixes should exhibit the same temperament as purebreds or be considered unsuitable rescue and adoption candidates.
B. The Pit Bull Rescuer should clearly label Pit Bull mixes as mixes and attempt to identify exactly what breeds the dog is mixed with when labeling.
C. Rescuing pit bulls mixed with guarding breeds is strongly discouraged. Extra caution and care should be taken when selecting and placing those dogs that are mixed with guard dog breeds including but not limited to Neapolitan Mastiffs, Dogue de Bourdeaux, Fila Brasileiro, Presa Canario, Cane Corso, Rottweilers, German Shepherds and others. Since the temperament of the pit bull is very different than the temperament of breeds in the guardian category, such mixes can create unique handling and placement challenges, and should be considered candidates for experienced homes only.


ITEM 3: Puppies
A. Strong preference for puppies that have both littermates and a temperament correct dam (See ITEM 1)
B. Will not rescue the puppies of a dam of incorrect temperament.
C. Considers puppies under 6-8 weeks of age to be high-risk and will not rescue unless moved directly into a setting that includes at least one healthy, vaccinated and well-adjusted adult role model dog able to provide appropriate dog-pup socialization. Due to the possibility of cross-contamination of fatal puppy disease it is recommended that puppies from various litters not be mixed until the health of all puppies is confirmed and adequate incubation periods met.
ITEM 3, Sub Section One: Care of Puppies.
A. The Pit Bull Rescuer will be well-versed and fully supported and be able to provide comprehensive socialization and evaluation.
B. If a litter arrives without a dam, efforts will be made to socialize puppies remedially through the age of 16 weeks to as many healthy and appropriate adult dogs as possible. This is of particular importance with litters under 8 weeks of age.
C. In the case of single puppy, the Pit Bull Rescuer will attempt to locate healthy, same-aged pups for pup-on-pup interaction after the new puppy's 10-day health quarantine has expired.
D. The Pit Bull Rescuer will maintain puppies in-home throughout the socialization period (16-20 weeks). This practice allows the Rescuer to maximize socialization, and provides opportunities to observe problem behavior as it may develop.
E. Socialization with humans should be considered a prime concern for puppies.
F. Despite best efforts to nurture pups properly, Pit Bull Rescuers must be aware of the influence of nature (genetics) and be willing to humanely euthanize those pups that demonstrate incorrect Pit Bull temperament.


ITEM 3, Sub Section Two: Placement of High Risk Puppies.
A. Adoptions shall not be finalized until the puppy is 12 months old and temperament evaluation period is complete.

ITEM 4: Qualities to Look For in Adopter Candidates.
1. Has already done good breed research. Asks good questions. Shows willingness to learn more.
2. Is realistic about breed challenges: Dog-on-dog aggression, high energy level, strong willed personalities, pulls on leash, strong and pushy, need to keep socialized to dogs, attracts negative attentions from some public.
3. Shows a stable, mature, open-minded personality.
4. Happy to be interviewed and receive a home inspection.
5. Physically capable of handling a strong dog and demonstrates a calm, confident way with the dog.
6. Wants an indoor pet as a companion animal/family member only.
7. Has had some dog experience, including basic obedience training.
8. Has a reasonably active lifestyle and is prepared to satisfy dog's daily exercise needs.
9. Owns a home or has a secure rental that will allow a pit bull (check those leases!)
10. Homes must provide safe containment: tall, secure fences if yard is present and working latches on gates.
11. The entire household is involved in the decision and is able to help manage the dog (roommates, children, seniors too)
12. Other pets in the home are a good match. No same sex pit bull placements and home understands that pit bull must be separated from other pets when not supervised.

This document has been written and endorsed by the following, and may not be altered in any way:

Mary Harwelik (http://www.realpitbull.com)/New Jersey For Pit Bulls; NJ

Donna Reynolds, BAD RAP Bay Area Doglovers Responsible About Pit bulls (http://www.badrap.org), CA

Holly Bukes, President PBRC (http://www.pbrc.net)

Caped Dog Services, CA

PitSmart, APBT Education/Rescue Resource

American Pit Bull Terrier Rescue and Referral (apbtrr.tripod.com),

NC Annabelle’s Second Chance Pit Bull Rescue (http://www.ascpbr.com/)

Send mail to realpitbull@aol.com with questions or comments about this web site.
Copyright © 2006 New Jersey For Pit Bulls
Last modified: 03/09/06
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Postby msvette2u » March 19th, 2006, 12:12 pm

Sue wrote:You don't start with a nursing mother with a possible fighting background that had obviously been abused. You, as the rescue, should have been able to make that decision for them. They did not have the experinece to make that decision themselves.


That's what I was thinking, too...
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Postby Eric - SPBR » March 19th, 2006, 12:15 pm

as i said, they were offered the full support of the forum, breed-savvy people, and a licensed veterinarian --

-- and brian never told me he about his shoot-to-kill mantra, either --

-- okay, now i really have to go do walks --

THANK YOU ALL FOR LISTENING, and THANK YOU to the MODS for allowing the other side of a story here!

eric

msvette2u wrote:
Sue wrote:You don't start with a nursing mother with a possible fighting background that had obviously been abused. You, as the rescue, should have been able to make that decision for them. They did not have the experinece to make that decision themselves.


That's what I was thinking, too...
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Postby Sue » March 19th, 2006, 12:17 pm

clarity wrote:haha -- i'm not trying to look like prince, doreen, but weren't you the one who quietly told people that she died of heartworm --

-- and that you'd appreciate if they kept that to themselves?

That's not dredging, but when you're over here on this forum degrading me personally, when I went to extreme measure to protect "your story" for the puppies' sake, that's sad --


I find it odd, how you brought up the Lila topic for discussion on pb smiles AFTER you had banned many, many members. Why not bring it up earlier?
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Postby Karen » March 19th, 2006, 12:18 pm

Don't you guuys remember Eric? He's a piece of work all right. Do any more transports with dogs crammed into your car in horrid conditions Eric? Hmmmm? We still have the evidence of that.

As for his experience with pit bulls he is a loose cannon and I would never recommend him to anyone. He was also placed on a bunch of DNA lists at new england shelters. Is that the real reason you moved out of your secret condo in CT? Remember that Eric? The one you were afraid your "rescues" would get stolen from? Gag.

Maryellen you were on Real Pit Bull when all this was going on.
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Postby Maryellen » March 19th, 2006, 12:24 pm

yes i was, and i remember all that on realpitbull as well.. why this issue with this dog was brought up months after it happened is beyond me.
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Postby Maryellen » March 19th, 2006, 12:25 pm

if you think male/male households don't work with pits, maryellen, i have lost all interest to argue with you -- your breed knolwedge just suffered a serious blow with this statement --



eric, i never said it couldnt work, i said that a reputable rescue doesnt place same sex dogs.. contact any reputable rescue- Bad Rap, Spindletop, OUt of the Pits, Animal Farm foundation, and you will see that same sex placements are frowned on due to the possibility of same sex fighting..
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Postby Karen » March 19th, 2006, 12:27 pm

Maryellen wrote:yes i was, and i remember all that on realpitbull as well.. why this issue with this dog was brought up months after it happened is beyond me.


Probably because a few foster homes couldn't handle the dogs they were sent and Eric couldn't/wouldn't/didn't take them back. The foster homes placed some apart from Eric with PBRC help and a couple others, well, they won't be biting anyone anytime soon. This scenario isn't new and biting trouble has dogged Eric right along.

He calls his pit/catahoula merle Precious a pit bull so when she bit him everyone knew his pit bull did it.
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