Giving bitework a bad name

Weight pull, Protection, Agility, Flyball... you name it!

Postby mnp13 » July 30th, 2009, 11:31 am

I took this post from another thread, because I wanted to go waaaaaay off topic.

katiek0417 wrote:
CinderDee wrote:The video is fascinating. What would Jue do if the guy tried to grab you while you were patting him down?


He'd bite the guy...probably automatically without being given the command (however, we always do give the command even if we know they're going to do it, anyway)...

ETA:

Cy, on the other hand, would be a different story. We compete in PSA (Protection Sports Association), and we're in the Level 3's - the highest level. There is a lot of control required in that level. As such, there may be a case where a decoy runs over and hugs me exuberantly (think if you haven't seen someone in a while, so you run to them and hug them) - of course, the decoy has to be suited in case the dog does bite, safety first. So, we have taught Cy to only bite if I'm grabbed if one of three things occur:
1) I scream (even muffled)
2) I say his name (which is the first part of his come command)
3) I say the bite command.

That being said, I would say this is probably one of the most important things that Cy knows. He is a serious dog. He won't go around randomly biting people, but he will bite someone if he feels I'm threatened - so, I wanted to make it clear that someone running up and hugging me IS NOT THE SAME as someone attacking me.

A scenario with the pat-down and an attack actually came up in the last competition we were in. I'll see if I can upload the video so you can see what I'm talking about (I got attacked, but Cy held the stay until I said his name for him to break).


Point being: dog bites when directed to, not as described in the quote down further...

There is a lot of controversy about bitesports. With every breed, not just Pit Bulls. For example, the Doberman is the only breed that was specifically created for guard work. They were made to work with a handler and bite people. Other breeds have been ultra fine tuned to do it, but the breeds (like Malinois and German Shepherds) started out with different jobs. A local Doberman rescue specifically states in their adoption paperwork that you can not do any sport that involves bite work. That's like saying "here, you can adopt this Labrador Retriever, but you may never play fetch with it."

Unfortunately, a vast majority of the bite work controversy comes from hack trainers who train using abusive and/or dangerous methods. There is one person in this region who starts dogs based purely in fear. The first day of training includes "trust breaking" where the dog "learns that hands can be a weapon." Yes, I'm serious. We watched them start a 16 week old puppy that way - it walks up to a stranger and that person grabs its flank. After a few times, the puppy hid behind the handler, who then moved and allowed the "trainer" (and I use that term very loosely) to flank the puppy again. After a few more times the puppy hit the end of the leash screaming bloody murder - and was praised and put up. We were appalled, but frankly didn't know better. We saw worse things there over the next few months, and then purchased Ruby. We had her evaluated within 24 hours of the purchase and were told to return her immediately because the only biting she would ever do was out of fear... and that was that. Demo wanted to return her, we had bought her for protection work and protection work was what she was supposed to do. I said no way on earth she was going back to that place, we bought her, she's ours until she dies. Truthfully, I understood his point 100% but once an animal is "mine" it's mine come hell or high water - whether I have it for one hour or one year. We spent about $400 in vet bills within the first few weeks of owning her because she was full of worms and quite sick from them (whip worms and a couple of other ones and some illness on top of that that I don't remember but the meds cost a fortune) The breeder wouldn't pay the bills, he just said to bring her back... not a chance.

But ANYWAY...

That idiot is still training dogs. And Katrina's post reminded me of something I saw recently that was posted by one of the people who looks at him like a god of protection training:
For those who are interested first i showed up the dog and family was in back yard no introduction the dog had no prep I walked in to the back yard the dog immediately ran to investigate who was in his yard upon rounding the corner with no agitation ran bit and fought me till his owner came. another good one was when i hid in the laundry room of the house the dog came in all happy no idea i was there upon entrance into the house he picked up my sent tracked me bit and fought me till the owner could come.

:shock: So... if we are to believe the account of the "trainer" someone walks into the back yard unannounced, the dog comes around the corner of the house and attacks them without command or provocation. Even the laundry room thing makes me queasy. I've been in people's houses as a guest when the other half comes home with their dog and it finds me unexpectedly... in this person's house that will get you attacked by a 90 pound mastiff mix. I hope that the dog is merely equipment fixated and went after the guy because he saw and smelled the bite suit, if not, God help the person who is legitimately in their house or yard that the dog doesn't expect to be there.

I only bring this up because I know that a number of people here are still uncomfortable with bite work of any kind. There are huge differences in doing things the right way and just making dogs that bite anything that they feel like.
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
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mnp13
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Postby katiek0417 » July 30th, 2009, 6:19 pm

I think this is a very good point, Michelle...

There is a difference between good trainers and bad trainers when it comes to PP and sport work...

Part of having a dog trained to bite is making sure that it's VERY obedient...to me, then, the bitework is really just the dog listening to an obedience command...

I don't believe my dogs should decide on their own to bite someone.
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

Katrina
Sacha CGC - Dumb Lab
Nisha CGC, PDC, PSA TC, PSA 1 - Crazy Malinois
Drusilla SLUT- Pet
Nemo - Dual-Purpose Narcotics
Cy TC, PSA 1, PSA 2, 2009 PSA Level 3 National Champion
Axo - Psycho Puppy
Rocky - RIP My Baby Boy
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katiek0417
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Postby mnp13 » July 30th, 2009, 7:07 pm

I think there are situations where a dog (protection trained or not) might bite without direction. However, it is the "no agitation" part that just makes my head hurt. Someone is just standing in the yard and the dog grabs them? And the handler is happy about it? Are you kidding me?

This is actually what these people are training for.

Creating dangerous dogs 101. :rolleyes2:
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
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mnp13
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Posts: 17234
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Postby katiek0417 » July 30th, 2009, 9:00 pm

mnp13 wrote:I think there are situations where a dog (protection trained or not) might bite without direction. However, it is the "no agitation" part that just makes my head hurt. Someone is just standing in the yard and the dog grabs them? And the handler is happy about it? Are you kidding me?

This is actually what these people are training for.

Creating dangerous dogs 101. :rolleyes2:


Well, I think that's why people call them attack dogs...
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

Katrina
Sacha CGC - Dumb Lab
Nisha CGC, PDC, PSA TC, PSA 1 - Crazy Malinois
Drusilla SLUT- Pet
Nemo - Dual-Purpose Narcotics
Cy TC, PSA 1, PSA 2, 2009 PSA Level 3 National Champion
Axo - Psycho Puppy
Rocky - RIP My Baby Boy
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katiek0417
pointy ear hoarder
 
Posts: 6280
Location: Glen Burnie, MD


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