Cattle Prods and Pain as "Motivation"

Weight pull, Protection, Agility, Flyball... you name it!

Postby katiek0417 » August 21st, 2008, 10:23 pm

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who is a bit clumsy like that!

a bit off-topic, but I do have a funny cattle prod story...Greg had to get one to teach his old dog Chipper to out off a decoy...(Chipper was an a$$ that Greg didn't get until he was 6...and he wasn't friendly...and handler aggressive...anywhoo)..well, Chipper did out...but he got pissed and bit the cattle prod...he still wouldn't out after that...it took SEVERAL sessions...
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

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Postby GregMK9 » August 25th, 2008, 9:57 pm

The dog Chipper Katrina was refering to wasn't your typical dog. And the Cattle prod I used was purchesed off the internet. Two to be exact. The first was the 2 ft model, 2nd was the 4ft model. I ended up using the 4 ft b/c it kept my hands away from his mouth. every time he got it he would let go and bite the prod. The same prod they use to move cattle.
If you are around big dogs or dangerous dogs, I like the cattle prod idea. I mean honestly, if you or you're dog is being attacked who cares who see's you doing what! The dog shouldn't have been at large.
What I found works well with off eash dogs I've encountered is actually charging the dog yelling ad screaming like a banshee. I mean heel, if I can run a trained pp dog in a trial in this fashion why not a typical house pet with no training. Of corse Idon't recommend this to anyone is 5' nothing. For those I suggest the air horn. I've ran trained pp dogs with that as well.
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Postby mnp13 » August 26th, 2008, 12:23 am

I'm sorry, I'm having a really hard time wrapping my brain around using a cattle prod as part of a training plan.
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Postby amazincc » August 26th, 2008, 12:38 am

Me too... :shock:

What exactly were you trying to teach that dog? What was he being trained for?
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Postby katiek0417 » August 26th, 2008, 5:18 am

amazincc wrote:Me too... :shock:

What exactly were you trying to teach that dog? What was he being trained for?


I'm not justifying what Greg did, but I am telling you a little bit about Chipper. Chipper was being trained for protection sport. He was way before "my time" with Greg, but I've heard the stories.

I'm sure Greg can get on here and give much more insight, but Chipper was real "special." Greg got Chipper when he was 6. Chipper had spent the better part of his first 6 years as a house dog in a guy's house. When people came over, the guy would put Chipper in a crate, and people would tease him. This led to a very "pi$$ed off" malinois. He became very aggressive towards the dog's wife (never biting, just growling). Fast forward, Chipper falls into Greg's lap.

He was very high drive, and when Greg got him realized he was very suitable for sport. In fact, 6 months after he got Chipper, he won PSA Nationals with him.

Chipper never liked people, in general. He was also extremely handler aggressive. Greg worked through it, but Chipper would regularly come up the line at him. The big reason Greg stopped showing Chipper was b/c Greg would get him to the start cone to compete, and Chipper would look towards the crowd drooling. Greg knew Chipper would break, and he wasn't necessarily going to go after the decoy. In fact, in the PSA level 1's, there is a seated decoy on the field. That is a Chipper rule. There was always a person seated on the field. However, the suited decoy became necessary because of Chipper.

There was an incident after Greg stopped competing with him (because he couldn't get Chipper to come out onto the field and not want to bite) where the founders of PSA were doing a seminar, and they were introducing the new PDC level. They asked Greg to demonstrate the obedience with Chipper. Greg didn't want to b/c of the issues he was having. The founders promised Greg up and down that the entire obedience was on-leash. So, Greg gets his dog. They get on the start cone. There was a suited decoy nearby (just in case). They get on the start cone, and Chipper starts drooling. Again, not looking at the decoy, but looking at the crowd. Well, the first thing Joe tells him is "leave your dog." Greg is apprehensive, but they promise it's not that far, and he's got an electric collar on him. So, Greg leaves his dog. He gets about 15 steps ahead, and goes to recall his dog. He yelled "Chipper, fulligan" and Chipper takes off towards the crowd towards Jerry Bradshaw. Greg starts using the electric on Chipper, he kept running full force, with his head turned to the side b/c of the electric. Jerry brings up his arm to catch the dog (no equipment), Chipper gets him, but only gets the material of his sweatshirt. Jerry kept swinging him around not letting his feet touch b/c if Chipper's feet touched the ground, he'd counter in. The decoy came in, and they got Chipper on the decoy.

There was an incident (in fact, it was the incident that made Greg sell Chipper) on the training field where Chipper came up the line at him 3 times in a row. The last two times were in the same spot Greg corrected him the first time, but hadn't yet corrected him on those two times. He had to "fight" with Chipper, and Chipper's tail was wagging the first 2 times...it wasn't until the third "round" that Chipper finally gave in. Greg would often come into the office after doing obedience with Chipper with ripped pants and blood on him. People would asked what happened, Greg's answer "I was doing obedience with my dog."

There was another incident where they were working on long downs with gunfire. Greg had just won Nationals with Chipper, so he knew Chipper could do this. He put him in a long down, and went to the other side of the field. He fired the gun, and Chipper came running full force towards him, and actually launched to bite him. Greg caught him mid-air by the face.

Take Chipper out of training situation, and he was very lovey towards Greg. While teaching him to out, Chipper would often out, then come up at Greg. Of course, this was when Chipper would still out for a normal correction. It got to the point where there was no teaching this dog to out - they had exhausted all traditional methods. Greg would try to trade Chipper toy for toy, and Chipper would come after him over the toy. He would use food with him - hot dog- and after he ran out of hot dog, Chipper would come up the line. On the prong collar, Chipper would hold a grudge so Greg couldn't get him off the back-tie for 30 to 45 minutes. So, they went to the e-collar, but then he'd either bite people's feet around him, or just work through it.

It's hard to imagine why you'd use a cattle prod on a dog. I can't say I would do it...but also, Chipper is not a dog that I'd own. In fact, probably 99% of the people on this board would not own or be able to handle a dog like Chipper (nor would they want to).

After Greg sold Chipper, he got a call from the police department he was sold to. Greg had to get the dog before they put him down b/c he put his handler in the hospital for 4 days. Ironically, Chipper went on to be a K9 for a female handler. She absolutely loves him, never had any incidents with him. He retired with his handler and she plays frisbee with him.
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

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Postby amazincc » August 26th, 2008, 12:33 pm

Oh... I had no idea... thanks for explaining. :)
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Postby katiek0417 » August 26th, 2008, 1:17 pm

amazincc wrote:Oh... I had no idea... thanks for explaining. :)


No problem... I know how bad it sounds to be using a cattle prod on a dog...which is why I wanted to explain that Chipper wasn't necessarily a typical dog...
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

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Postby Megan Welch » August 26th, 2008, 2:45 pm

I thought I would add to this post as dealing with dogs offleash is something I deal with on a regular basis not only for my job but for walking with my dog as well.

I have a belgian Malinois who is trained in obedience. While walking with a friend of mine who owns a pit bull (who can be dog aggressive when provoked) and my mali we encountered, believe it or not, a an aggressive lab. This lab charged both of us, immediatly her dog became aggressive. At this time I did not hesitate to use physical force on the dog to deter it. It has been my expirence that a dog which is not "taught" to bite will usually back down with a good correction (whether that be from your foot, hand, leash, pepper spray or whatever you have available.) I like to tell people, you should be prepared to handle that when you go walking. If you do not prepare or watch out for situations like that I feel you are setting your dog up for a dangerous situation. I just recently used pepper spray on a canine that was EXTREMLY aggressive and it worked like a charm. The dog went whimpering away and I was able to finish doing what I was doing without any further issues. I find pepper spray to work if your timing is correct, if you miss the dog you will be, as some would say SOL. It is a difficult situation when you are being a good owner and keeping your dog onleash and some knuckle head lets their dog run loose. I have no quams about calling an animal control officer especially if I feel my dog may be hurt. I guess what I am trying to get across in my post is, use whatever force neccessary to deter the dog and be prepared when you walk your dog.

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Postby celeste » August 26th, 2008, 11:27 pm

I dont get it what did this dog chipper...what did he do i dont understand.....and i have another question my dog is 2 years old but she isnt dog aggressive is it possible she will become DA
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Postby amazincc » August 27th, 2008, 12:31 am

celeste wrote:I dont get it what did this dog chipper...what did he do i dont understand....

As I understood Katrinas post, Chipper "lost his mind" during training and attacked people. :wink:


and i have another question my dog is 2 years old but she isnt dog aggressive is it possible she will become DA

That's hard to say... not all dogs get along w/all other dogs, same as with people.
Are you worried about her for some reason?
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Postby katiek0417 » August 27th, 2008, 4:59 am

amazincc wrote:
celeste wrote:I dont get it what did this dog chipper...what did he do i dont understand....

As I understood Katrinas post, Chipper "lost his mind" during training and attacked people. :wink:




Chipper wasn't friendly to begin with...but during training he just became downright nasty...He'd go after people for essentially, well, anything that he thought was unfair - which was anything: ANY correction, being corrected to out off the grip...well, you get the point...

The dog went after a crowd of people at a seminar even though there was a suited decoy right there...Greg had to stop competing with him b/c Chipper started to bite the decoy on the field EVERY time he went out on the field...the last straw for Greg was when he got into a 3-round, full-out, man-on-man fight with his dog on the training field b/c his dog came after him 3 times with 2 times being essentially unprovoked...

Greg refers to Chipper as having "non-classical" aggression.

I think the reason Chipper succeeded with the woman handler is that she never expected anything from him except to bite - which he was willing to do. The handler lived in a high-gang area...so she'd pull up, people would scatter, she'd take Chipper out of the car, put him between her legs, then let him go...to get him off the grip: she choked him off...perfect for him...no conflict with the handler...no corrections...
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

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Postby GregMK9 » August 27th, 2008, 3:10 pm

Sorry guys been busy so I hadn't had a chance to read the posts. everything Katrina is telling you about Chipper is true unfortunatley.
Chipper was my first Malinois. Since at that point all I had seen were handler aggressive mals I thought it was normal. The cattle prod was a last ditch effort at teaching this dog the out. I started off teaching him to out with two balls. The problem I ran into was he would out off of one ball and prey gaurd the second. If I went to get the ball he would bite me badly. I did his foundation in obedience using food only. When ever he did something I woulkd reward him with food. when I'd run out of food or not give it to him for messing up he'd come up the line at me viciously. If I tried to reward him in obedience with a toy and he missed it I would inevitably get bit viciously as I have several scars from Chipper to prove it.
Finally, it got so bad that my old training director said we were going to have to get a little physical with Chipper. So for the out we went to using a back tie and a long line attached to a prong collar. I'd tell Chipper to out and My trainer would pop him on the prong collar. Once he would let go he would get rewarded with another bite. The problem here was going in and getting off the back tie. Next option was to use an e-collar. which he would fight through while on the grip. Then the same problem, getting him off the back tie. Next step was a belly collar. which made matters even worse, as once again I still had to get him off the back tie. I would leave him sit there on back tie after train ing sessions some times for hours. eventually my trainer decided we should use a cattle prod. didn't matter, When hit with the cattle prod Chipper would let go and bite the cattle prod, then want to kill any and everyone around. It even came to the point that oncxe he started outing he would let go of the decoy and try to bite him in the foot. It was miserable and took the fun out of training. It seemed as though The nicer you were to Chipper the more he would cross boundaries to hurt me. The harder I was on him the more he enjoyed the fight as evident by the way he would not only initiate a fight with me, bu would wag his tale the entire time we were fighting.
One day I came into the office of my old trainer with several people around. My pant leg was shredded and I was bleeding bad enough that one of the club members thought I should go to see a Dr. Joe (my old trainer) said Chipper and I needed to have it out. So we went out I did my obedience, he looked at everyone around as a potential meal. I corrected him for it with a prong collar. He come up the line at me and we fought. I got bit a few times and it was ugly. after that round Joe told me to start obedience again so I did. This time, the dog come up the line at me and bit me in my back arm. this was without any corrections or anything. Dog wagging his tail the entire time. Third and final round the dog finally submitted and I was done. Afterwards the dog was very compliant and lovey. I on the other hand being a dog lover felt like a total and udder pice of s#@t. I aksed my boss if I was going to have to do this for the dogs entire life. He said probably. I gave up and told Joe to sell him. I couldn't do it anymore.
The training methods that took place with this dog is NOT something I would ever recommend someone use with a dog, EVER. I was acting under the guidance of my trainer whom was one of the best trainers I have ever met. That being said I will NEVER work this type of dog EVER again. And if I ever bred this type dog I would have him put down. There are just too many good working dogs out there with a sound temperment. Had I owned Chipper from the begining I do think he would have been a different dog. I also believe the Chipper was a victim of his up bringing and environment which is why I continued to work him even after being attacked several times.
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Postby cheekymunkee » August 27th, 2008, 3:50 pm

That being said I will NEVER work this type of dog EVER again. And if I ever bred this type dog I would have him put down. There are just too many good working dogs out there with a sound temperment. Had I owned Chipper from the begining I do think he would have been a different dog. I also believe the Chipper was a victim of his up bringing and environment which is why I continued to work him even after being attacked several times.



This is what I have been wondering during this entire thread. WHY was this dog allowed to live? Victim of upbringing or not, he sounds like a very unstable dog. I am in no way a trainer or a working dog owner but this dog sounds like a law suit to me. I understand he need for strict obedience with a protection trained dog. It doesnt sound like training to me, it sounds like torture. Some dogs just should not breathe. I hope the lady who now owns him never pisses him off. :shock: And I am not trying to start anything, I am just flabbergasted.
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Postby BigDogBuford » August 27th, 2008, 3:57 pm

cheekymunkee wrote: I am just flabbergasted.


I believe you mean 'gobsmacked'. :D
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Postby GregMK9 » August 27th, 2008, 4:42 pm

The dog was allowed to live b/c I for one was VERY inexperienced and thought this what malinois did as I only had other handler aggressive malinois to compare him to. Secondly he was not a pet he was to be strictly a working/ competition dog. chipper was also a free dog for me. Which at the time I hadn't a lot of money, even for the purchase of a puppy. So the only thing I could do or felt i could do is try to work things out with this dog. And honestly, thedog was very polite in the house, outside of working him. It was as if whenever he did ANY form of work a wire got crossed or something..... kinda like Jekyl and Hyde.
The woman who has him now just retire him (2yrs ago) and has him as a house pet. He's about 15 yrs old or so, so I'm guessing there's not much he could do even if he wanted to. This woman gave him his dream job as a point and shoot type of patrol dog and he loved her for it. She never asked him for nothing except, "OK, Go bite". B/c of this there was never any conflict between what the handler wanted and what th dog wanted. This woman told me chipper was the best Patrol dog she's EVER had.
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Postby Marinepits » August 27th, 2008, 4:52 pm

Flabbergasted, gobsmacked, disgusted, horrified, whatever -- I've felt all of it after reading about the cattle prod "training". I did a bit of research and if this happened within my jurisdiction, I could and WOULD charge whoever used that "training method" with felony animal cruelty.

Greg, I'm glad you'll never do that again.

btw No, you cannot carry a cattle prod to use as a self-defense weapon in CT, 4' long arms or not, and I'm fairly sure you can't carry it in other states, either. Still researching that aspect.....
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Postby amazincc » August 27th, 2008, 7:45 pm

cheekymunkee wrote: Some dogs just should not breathe. I hope the lady who now owns him never pisses him off.



I disagree... some dogs should not be "trained" for something they obviously are ill-equipped to handle or perform in. We also have no idea what happened to him before Greg got him. :wink:

Mick would make an absolutely lousy, unpredictable, and potentially dangerous PP dog. He doesn't respond well to pain... be it used in "training" or otherwise.
I've pissed him off plenty in the course of our almost 7 years together, but I've never once been afraid of him. It simply wouldn't occur to him to come after me, or bite me.
It sounds like Chipper has finally found someone he can trust and he doesn't feel the need to constantly defend himself (by going on the offensive).
I'm happy for him and the woman who gave him a chance.

And I by no means agree w/the use of a cattle prod... not even for cattle. :sad2:
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Postby GregMK9 » August 27th, 2008, 10:13 pm

Marinepits wrote:Greg, I'm glad you'll never do that again.


As I said before, I was a newbie and was spoon fed everything. The experience taught me a lot. It taught me patients, it taught me that you can't always meet agression with agression, and it taught me that all dogs can't be fixed. I loved Chipper for that and I love the fact that he found the perfect home and job. I am also glad he wasn't put down. He didn't deserve it. I believed that then and I still believe it today.
The mistakes made with Chipper started in my oppinion at 8 weeks old when he was bred as an extremly strong working line malinois, who had handler agressive parents and was sold to a pet/ pp home. Then with his owners who purchased him and didn't acquire the proper training at an early age, not knowing anything about pp training and putting him in a crate when people come over and having them tease the hell out of him. Finally, the training he recieved once I got him (agression Vs. agression).
The chipper story is not a story I like to tell just anyone, but since it was brought up I figured everyone should know everything and not just bits and pieces.
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Postby amazincc » August 27th, 2008, 10:26 pm

GregMK9 wrote: The experience taught me a lot. It taught me that you can't always meet agression with agression


I'm really curious about this statement... can you ever effectively "train" an aggressive dog by using aggression yourself? Or do you think that an aggressive dog can learn to "hide the behavior" out of fear of being punished, just to resort to the behavior again when the "punisher" isn't around?
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Postby cheekymunkee » August 27th, 2008, 11:37 pm

amazincc wrote:
cheekymunkee wrote: Some dogs just should not breathe. I hope the lady who now owns him never pisses him off.



I disagree... some dogs should not be "trained" for something they obviously are ill-equipped to handle or perform in. We also have no idea what happened to him before Greg got him. :wink:

Mick would make an absolutely lousy, unpredictable, and potentially dangerous PP dog. He doesn't respond well to pain... be it used in "training" or otherwise.
I've pissed him off plenty in the course of our almost 7 years together, but I've never once been afraid of him. It simply wouldn't occur to him to come after me, or bite me.
It sounds like Chipper has finally found someone he can trust and he doesn't feel the need to constantly defend himself (by going on the offensive).
I'm happy for him and the woman who gave him a chance.

And I by no means agree w/the use of a cattle prod... not even for cattle. :sad2:


And that is the difference, your dog would not dream of biting you, this dog had no problems biting his owner or anyone else for that matter from what Greg said. Would you still feel the same had Mick ever bitten you or your daughters? Or SEVERELY bitten anyone? This does not sound at all like a fear aggressive dog or even a fearful dog.

some dogs should not be "trained" for something they obviously are ill-equipped to handle or perform in.


I completely agree with this.
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