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Postby Chris Fraize » April 4th, 2006, 3:45 pm

Thought this might help folks understand.

http://www.k9sts.com/personalprotectionmovie/

There is much to learn about training, but this movie sums up the personal protection or bitework-trained dog.

There are idiots in every breed, every organization and every form of training. Should I stop doing what I'm doing because they are "dangerous"? Or should we preach better and proper training (responsibility).

It always amazes me how much this anti-bite work thread sounds (reads) exactly what we all go through with the APBT as a breed. Some foolish people don’t own the APBT as a breed in a responsible way so; some uneducated and close-minded people want us to stop owning them. Why, because they don’t understand the breed or want to take the time to understand the breed. They are afraid and want the fear to stop! Isn't that EXACTLY what is going on here with bite work?

You can’t argue with a closed mind. Isn’t that the scariest and saddest things about trying to get a better understanding of the APBT and / or bite work?

Knowledge replaces fear!

Safe training,
Chris Fraize
Last edited by Chris Fraize on April 4th, 2006, 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby girlie » April 4th, 2006, 3:52 pm

Yet another well done piece.
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Postby babyreba » April 4th, 2006, 5:30 pm

nice ad.
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Postby Chris Fraize » April 4th, 2006, 5:58 pm

I don't know what that means? :|

Safe training,
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Postby mnp13 » April 4th, 2006, 6:49 pm

Looks good, except for that dog.... way too much hair. :wink:

And BabyReba, yes, that is an ad. Dog training is what Chris does for a living. All of his videos are ads, some to a greater degree than others.

I put this website together (yes, it's freeware, but I maintain it and designed the look) and it is also an ad for me and I use it as a reference. I've done a number of free sites for rescues, and they ALL have my name and contact info on them.

Chris made a movie for me last night to help me with Riggs' training. It was about a minute long and showed Megan proofing Booyeah in a down. He put contact information on it. why? Because if I choose to share it with someone and they share it, etc, after a while who knows who is in the video? How many awesome videos are floating around the internet that people love but have no idea where they came from?
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Postby babyreba » April 4th, 2006, 7:00 pm

it means it's a nice ad. that's all.

sometimes an ad is just an ad. and a comment is just a comment.

it's a nice ad.
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Postby dogcrazyjen » April 4th, 2006, 7:50 pm

Please do not mistake difference of opinion for ignorance.
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Postby dogcrazyjen » April 4th, 2006, 8:17 pm

Your video tells me about the ideal protection GSD. However, it does not talk about the idea of using only sleevework-and I definately do not think Pits should be doing PP work off-sleeve. This example is also misleading, as the dog will only 'protect' IF the owner can give the command, and IF the dog is trained off-sleeve. If there is no sleeve, and the dog was sleeve trained, it would likely circle to find the sleeve and do nothing( that was shown on another of your videos). If she was unable to use her voice, then would the dog know to attack? And if you gave the dog the choice to attack when it percieved danger, then how could you ever trust it around kids, since they tend to play as if they are attacking each other.

Sorry but this video to me was using a nice emotive song, and some set up shots, to create a commercial based on some solid and some questionable info. It really did not tell me anything i did not already understand about PP training.

I usually really enjoy your videos, but this one was a miss with me.
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Postby mnp13 » April 4th, 2006, 10:04 pm

babyreba wrote:it means it's a nice ad. that's all.

sometimes an ad is just an ad. and a comment is just a comment.

it's a nice ad.


I'm sorry that I misunderstood the meaning of your post.
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Postby DemoDick » April 5th, 2006, 5:18 pm

These are my opinions and plenty will disagree.

Your video tells me about the ideal protection GSD. However, it does not talk about the idea of using only sleevework-and I definately do not think Pits should be doing PP work off-sleeve.


I don't understand what you mean. Are you saying that you don't like to see Pits doing bitework on anything but a schutzhund style sleeve? If so, why? Do you include suit work as well?

This example is also misleading, as the dog will only 'protect' IF the owner can give the command, and IF the dog is trained off-sleeve.


I don't think anything in the video said that the dog will ONLY engage on command. And again, I don't know what you mean when you write "off sleeve". That could mean any number of things.

If there is no sleeve, and the dog was sleeve trained, it would likely circle to find the sleeve and do nothing( that was shown on another of your videos).


This depends on the dog and training. Some dogs will happily bite a trial sleeve and ignore a bare arm...some will ignore the sleeve to take a live bite. A true Personal Protection dog will ignore equipment and go for the live bite.

If she was unable to use her voice, then would the dog know to attack?


A properly trained PP dog has to have some "decision making" ability. The dog has to be able to think for itself. It cannot function like a robot. If someone grabbed Megan in a threatening manner and covered her mouth so she could give no commands, I'm pretty sure he'd get bit anyway.

And if you gave the dog the choice to attack when it percieved danger, then how could you ever trust it around kids, since they tend to play as if they are attacking each other.


A dog that can't distinguish between a real threat and kids playing is not cut out for PP. Again, the dog has to be able to think and react. My dog will take suit, sleeve, and live bites all day, but if you give his tug toy to a child he turns his own intensity down about 90% so as to avoid hurting the kid. He'll still play, but he won't pull them over. It's like watching a pro boxer spar with a rookie; you know the pro could trash the kid, but he knows it's not appropriate.

Sorry but this video to me was using a nice emotive song, and some set up shots, to create a commercial based on some solid and some questionable info. It really did not tell me anything i did not already understand about PP training.


I think the video makes a statement to counter some of the bad information out there regarding protection dogs. They don't have to be locked away from people, can be safe and stable family members and can accompany you out in public without a problem.

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Postby SisMorphine » April 6th, 2006, 7:30 am

DemoDick wrote: statement to counter some of the bad information out there regarding protection dogs. They don't have to be locked away from people, can be safe and stable family members and can accompany you out in public without a problem.

I agree. Until I joined this board I thought of all Personal Protection trained dogs to be like the police K9 dog that used to come into the first vet's office I worked at: always in a leather muzzle just in case, rushed from the car to the exam room after the waiting room had been cleared, no one invited to pet the dog. I truly thought that THAT was the way a dog who did bitework acted, dangerous to everyone but his handler.

Then I joined this board and in a short amount of time have learned a lot. I was pretty nervous/excited to go up and actually see PP work done at Chris' place. Now I am a lot more comfortable with it and have a whole different view than I did when I first came to this board. And I thank EVERYONE on it for helping to educate me. It's been an awesome experience to have my eyes open to something new that I was afraid of before.

Chris Fraize wrote:Knowledge replaces fear!

Exactly.
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Postby katiek0417 » April 6th, 2006, 9:32 am

SisMorphine wrote:[Until I joined this board I thought of all Personal Protection trained dogs to be like the police K9 dog that used to come into the first vet's office I worked at: always in a leather muzzle just in case, rushed from the car to the exam room after the waiting room had been cleared, no one invited to pet the dog. I truly thought that THAT was the way a dog who did bitework acted, dangerous to everyone but his handler.


I don't know that many police K9's, but the majority of the ones I know are friendly. They live in the handler's house, sleep in the handler's bed, play with the kids...

Many are even used as therapy dogs upon retirement from police work.

Again, this does not describe every police K9, but at least a majority that I know.
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Postby SisMorphine » April 6th, 2006, 1:05 pm

katiek0417 wrote:I don't know that many police K9's, but the majority of the ones I know are friendly. They live in the handler's house, sleep in the handler's bed, play with the kids...

Many are even used as therapy dogs upon retirement from police work.

Again, this does not describe every police K9, but at least a majority that I know.

Which makes sense to me now, but that was the only police K9 that I had ever known so you can see how I was afraid of dogs who did bite work.
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Postby Romanwild » April 6th, 2006, 1:14 pm

Locally the city police have the type you can't go near. They're pycho or appear to be.

The Sheriffs dept and a few smaller departments have the type of dog that could do therapy work right after they take down a perp. The difference is training philosophy. The friendly dogs have a off switch the crazy ones don't.

That's why you have to spend a lot of time finding the right trainer if you get into this kind of thing. They're are a lot of pshycho trainers out there. I've met a few. :rolleyes2: (not you chris, although I haven't realy met you yet :wink: )

Cool vid by the way. :)
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Postby dogcrazyjen » April 6th, 2006, 2:40 pm

These are my opinions and plenty will disagree.


That's Ok, that is why we call them opinions :wink:

Quote:
Your video tells me about the ideal protection GSD. However, it does not talk about the idea of using only sleevework-and I definately do not think Pits should be doing PP work off-sleeve.


I don't understand what you mean. Are you saying that you don't like to see Pits doing bitework on anything but a schutzhund style sleeve? If so, why? Do you include suit work as well?



This is a great question. I think there is a line between sleeve and suit work vs bare arm or even clothing work. I think there is an additional
line even between sleeve and suit work. Chris can correct me if I am wrong, but this is how I see it working. The dog is encouraged to play tug, usually as a reward for something (ie obedience). The tug toy, which is a sleeve or fabric is held in front like the sleeve will be held, and the dog is encouraged to play tug. The dog is allowed to take the sleeve and 'win' the tug game. Eventually the arm is inserted into the sleeve, but the dog is still often allowed to win and take the toy away. At this stage in training a normal dog (ie not a over the top mal wanting to kill the bad guy) does not see this as attacking a person but simply playing a fun game of tug. It is up for debate whether the dog even understands that the sleeve contains an arm. The dog can remove the sleeve, so it does not see it as an actual arm.

This may be stretched to the bite suit, where again the dog is going not after a person but after the giant tug toy. The dog is being rewarded in Chris' videos for such great obedience by being able to have the toy-the bite suit. Chris has even said that many of his dogs will NOT go after someone without a bite suit on even if commanded, and one of his videos shows a dog circling the decoy looking for the sleeve. One of his dogs also pulled off the bite suit, leading me to think th edog also thought the suit was a tug toy.

At this point the dog is not defending anyone-it is playing. A dog trained in this way would be fairly useless as a real PP dog because it is trained to go after a bite suit, not a person. Of course if the assailant happened to be wearing a bite suit.... :twisted:

The GSD shown on this last video was trained to bite a person not wearing a bite suit. That dog either understood it was going after a person, or it was trained to bite a hidden bite suit. If the dog was trained to go after a hidden bite suit, it still may not comprehend it is biting a person. However if a dog is going after a person without a suit on, and will hold on dispite there being no suit (how do you find a decoy for THAT? ) then the dog truly understands it is attacking a person.

The sleeve and the suit work is not using a pit to attack a person. It is letting the pit have a tug toy. I disagree with it (in my own opinion) for other reasons.

If you were to use a golden retriever to real life lure course, ie hunt down and kill a small animal, that would be completely counter to what a golden is bred for. The golden is bred to have a soft mouth and to retrieve un- harmed small game and fowl. By teaching it to rip and kill, you are using it counter to it's original purpose. By basing a line of breeding on that, you are actually breeding away from its original purpose, and away from breed standard.

The pit bull was bred not to bite people. Many dogs were culled, as some say, to avoid human aggressive pits. Doing bitework of the bare arm sort, or using a pit to conscously attack someone goes against what they were bred to be. This isn't expanding horizons, it is countering the original breeding purpose. Using that as a breeding platform is breeding away from its original purpose. (of course breeding non dog aggressive pits is ALSO breeding away from purpose but that is another conversation.)

I think bare arm PP with a pit should be absolutely discouraged. To me it is wrong to encourage a pit to go after a person.

Using a bite suit or sleeve to me is much less damaging, as the dog is playing. I certainly am willing to learn from those who train in this, even though I do not think that for the breed it is necessarily a good thing.

Quote:
This example is also misleading, as the dog will only 'protect' IF the owner can give the command, and IF the dog is trained off-sleeve.


I don't think anything in the video said that the dog will ONLY engage on command. And again, I don't know what you mean when you write "off sleeve". That could mean any number of things.


Off-sleeve I mean no sleeve or hidden sleeve. The dog is going after skin or clothing. Live bite I would think is with no suit, so going after skin or clothing with no suit. So off sleeve could be live or not.

Quote:
If there is no sleeve, and the dog was sleeve trained, it would likely circle to find the sleeve and do nothing( that was shown on another of your videos).


This depends on the dog and training. Some dogs will happily bite a trial sleeve and ignore a bare arm...some will ignore the sleeve to take a live bite. A true Personal Protection dog will ignore equipment and go for the live bite.



I have a massive problem with pit bulls doing live bites. I think it is absolutely the wrong dog for that, and i think basing a breed line on a pit who is willing to do a live bite is trouble. Pits were bred never to bite people. This is their best trait. I do not understand why on earth anyone would think that breeding that out is acceptable.

Quote:
If she was unable to use her voice, then would the dog know to attack?


A properly trained PP dog has to have some "decision making" ability. The dog has to be able to think for itself. It cannot function like a robot. If someone grabbed Megan in a threatening manner and covered her mouth so she could give no commands, I'm pretty sure he'd get bit anyway.


I do not think any pit should be doing live bites to begin with, but even more I do not think pits should be allowed to make those decisions. You may not spend a lot of time with kids, but I do. I have had kids near me make my heart drop and send me running only to find out they were playing. What happens when her boyfriend or some school friend does this? You are right. They are not robots, they are living beings. And living beings make mistakes. Giving a dog license to decide what is a threat is handing a child a loaded gun. The child may be well trained, but it is still a child. It is one thing to have total control and only bite on command, it is another thing to let the dog assume it can make those decisions.



Quote:
And if you gave the dog the choice to attack when it percieved danger, then how could you ever trust it around kids, since they tend to play as if they are attacking each other.


A dog that can't distinguish between a real threat and kids playing is not cut out for PP. Again, the dog has to be able to think and react. My dog will take suit, sleeve, and live bites all day, but if you give his tug toy to a child he turns his own intensity down about 90% so as to avoid hurting the kid. He'll still play, but he won't pull them over. It's like watching a pro boxer spar with a rookie; you know the pro could trash the kid, but he knows it's not appropriate.


As I said above, if people cannot sometimes tell, how can a dog?

Quote:
Sorry but this video to me was using a nice emotive song, and some set up shots, to create a commercial based on some solid and some questionable info. It really did not tell me anything i did not already understand about PP training.


I think the video makes a statement to counter some of the bad information out there regarding protection dogs. They don't have to be locked away from people, can be safe and stable family members and can accompany you out in public without a problem.


Well, it may have done that for some. I don't know. Knowing a bit more than the average person, the video did not tell me all that. The dog was on a forced down stay with the kids safely on the couch NOT interacting with the dog, the obedience work was in front of a store which did not have a lot of traffic, and the bite work was staged. Now I assume the dog was likely safe around people and such having gotten to know Chris a little, but the video did not tell me that.

Quote:
Your video tells me about the ideal protection GSD. However, it does not talk about the idea of using only sleevework-and I definately do not think Pits should be doing PP work off-sleeve.


I don't understand what you mean. Are you saying that you don't like to see Pits doing bitework on anything but a schutzhund style sleeve? If so, why? Do you include suit work as well?


I think I covered this above. But basically, as soon as the dog realizes he is biting a human and not a tog toy, to me a line has been crossed that SHOULD NEVER be crossed with a pit, IMO.

Knowing how obsessive bullies can be, I really do not think the vast majority of people could train a pit to do live bitework without creating an accident waiting to happen. These are not working dogs, they have not been bred to only listen to the owner. They were bred to get the red haze of fighting, dive in, and finish the job. I think that showing a pit that they can get that high from biting humans is dangerous.
You use the bite as a reward, then you go to live bites, then everywhere you go is the potenial the dog will have to fight the urge to go 'play'. All it takes is some young teen in a puffy coat acting just like the decoy. Add in some people expect the dog to make decisions as to what is threatening, and hopefully the owner is paying attention when it happens.

I feel much safer when the dog ONLY bites sleeve and suit, and ONLY on command. Of course I would feel safer without the bite training.
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Postby dogcrazyjen » April 6th, 2006, 2:52 pm

Oh, and one more thing. I think that saying bite work is all obedience and control is not necessarily true. I think the obedience it totally separate from the bitework, a responsible trainer (and I gather those here do this) require the control first, before the bite work. So you could get all that control and obedience without the dog laying a tooth on a person. The bite work is separate, then the obedience is proofed using the bitework as distraction and reward. (at least in Chris' case.)

So I do not think that saying bitework is obedience is really 100% true.
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Postby Maryellen » April 6th, 2006, 3:01 pm

excellent post dogcrazyjen.. i too feel that the breed should not be doing bitework.
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Postby mnp13 » April 6th, 2006, 7:08 pm

First and formost, human aggression is different than bitework. I don't know how many times this has been stated so far, but I will state it again. Are some dogs that do bite work human aggressive? yes. Are all of them? no. A pit bull that is human aggressive is not a sound Pit Bull in my opinion (and it would seem, the opinion of pretty much everyone here) BUT out of all of the dogs I have met that do bitework (at this point, I'm well over 50) the VAST majority are not human aggressive. The only human aggressive ones I have seen are furry pointy ears (sorry to all you furry pointy ear owners).

Being protective is not the same as being aggressive.

I will have Riggs at my parent's house next weekend, he has never met my three neices, I will be more than happy to video them interacting with him. Will he be in a down? Yes, of course. He jumps on me and he out weighs all three of them. I have video somewhere of Connor interacting with them as well. And this is unstructured 'play time'.

Somewhere on the forum there is a picture of Connor being pet by Clara. Clara has a huge Care Bear in her other arm. Connor likes nothing more than to attack stuffies and kill them. If I have one he will jump all over me to get it. If I put one down he steals it the sceond I turn my back. I was there to take the picture, but the moment was an accident, not set up. Sure, he wanted the bear, but didn't make a move toward it. Not one step. He knows and understands that one wrong move towards a child will be his last, it only took once to teach him that (and his offense that time was minor and not at all dangerous).

If you don't think bitework is about obedience and control I don't know what videos you have been watching. Have you seen a dog break the line of departure before they are told to do so? Have you seen a dog fail to out when told to do so? Have you seen a dog bite when it is told not to? What part of that is NOT obedience and control?

Sure, there is a learning curve, but that is where responsible training and handling come in. On leash work comes long before off leash.

If Demo doesn't mind, I'll video Connor doing bitework and haveing the decoy pet him two minutes later outside of the suit. Connor isn't stupid, he knows it is the same person. Riggs is the same way. First I'll bite you, then you'll pet me.

As for the 'big tug toy', well, last Monday our decoy neglected to wear a cup and Riggs is a crotch biter. Our decoy was in some pain, and Riggs knew it. There was no 'fake' decoy yelling on that bite.

Chris has even said that many of his dogs will NOT go after someone without a bite suit on even if commanded, and one of his videos shows a dog circling the decoy looking for the sleeve.


I'm sorry, I have gone though all of the videos again and I just can not find the part you are referencing. Looking for equipment is equipment fixation I can almost guarentee that you are mis-remembering the video, or are misunderstanding what you are seeing. Equipment fixation often happens in the early stages of protection work, but that is a flaw in training. I'd like you to find the video you are referencing please.

Look, I have to be honest here. We are talking in circles and I don't feel like some of the people here are interested in listening or learning. There are a number of issues that have been brought up (and beat to death) that show a fundamental lack of understanding of drives and dog behavior. (the bitework = human aggression is a good example)

If people have questions and actually want to learn, that's great, but I've seen waaaaay too much :tmi:

A few people here have actually seen correct bitework. That does not mean they have watched videos, or been to a demo where a dog acted like an idiot and the handler couldn't control it, that means they have attended training to watch and learn and ask questions. They have handled and/or met dogs. They have personal experience, not what they read in a book or were told third or fourth hand.

For every one of Chris (and not that we are on his level, me and Demo) there are 10 morons beating Pit Bulls in their back yards to teach them to be 'mean' and be 'protective'. It would seem that you want Chris to go to a different breed... but who does that leave?? It leaves the morons... do you really want THEM to represent Pit Bulls? How does that make any sense? If you really want to beat the stereotypes, you should be looking for more people like Chris. MORE people who do it right, who make sure their dogs are safe, stable and under control. Remove the good ones and you leave the dirt bags, beacuse the dirt bags are a dime a dozen.

If anyone would like further information from me, please PM me. I don't have the energy to keep going round and round with this.
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Postby Maryellen » April 6th, 2006, 8:09 pm

i dont think anyone is saying pit bulls doing bite work are human aggressive. i see people saying they dont think the breed should do it because they were bred to have better bite inhibition..
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Postby dogcrazyjen » April 6th, 2006, 9:08 pm

I never mentioned human aggression. I did mention bite inhibition, and I did mention the potential issue for making a very drivy, obsessive breed dog look at the human body as a toy. I also question to basing of breeding stock on dogs without bite inhibition.

Again, you are assuming a great deal, or a great lack, of knowledge here that I do not think you can assume.

You as well are going in circles, and there is a whole lot of *blah blah* going on both sides.

If you wish to stop the discussion, do so, but please do not assume it is because my position is wrong and you cannot educate me properly. That is presumptious at best.

With respect, if the dog is trained to let go at real pain, or cannot hold because of innate bite inhibition, then why use it as a pp dog?

I also never said that those bite dogs do not have control and obedience. I said the bitework is not teaching that. That obedience can all be taught without the bite work. Bitework is simply adding a different set of distractions and rewards. If a dog does not have that control before hand, it should not be taught to bite. Even you would agree with me there.

I am not telling anyone they need to stop. I am saying I disagree with it. I wish I didn't have to keep repeating that.

If responsible trainers stop doing PP work, then we still say the same exact thing about the morons that we have to now-that they are morons and pits should not be biting people. The plus side is that people will not have the role models saying it can be done.

If you wish to agree to disagree, then that is fine. If you wish to assume you won this debate because of my ignorance, then you are free to believe that. I will still respectfully disagree.
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