OFFICIAL Bitework/Personal Protection Debate Thread

Weight pull, Protection, Agility, Flyball... you name it!

Postby msvette2u » April 3rd, 2006, 12:03 pm

concreterose wrote:
Maryellen wrote:i agree with babyreba,i couldnt have said it better then her.. and, another scary part, what if the losers see these dogs doing this type of work, and decide to try to train their pit bulls to do it?? they saw how the dogs used to fight in a pit, and started having their own ideas of pit fighting.... while i understand that it takes a special dog to to this type of work, i truly feel that the pit bull shouldnt be doing it ... any other breed, fine. no problem. but a pit bull? no. i dont like the idea of them doing it, and especially i dont like the idea of average owners now wanting to get into it with their pit bull..


Sadly, this is exactly what I see happening a LOT now :(

In my job as animal control, I see it too and it's very sad. Just recently a pit bull was killed by an officer (not here, elsewhere, in the headlines) because his owner "sicced" him on the officer.
The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.
User avatar
msvette2u
I live here
 
Posts: 6812
Location: Eastern WA

Postby mnp13 » April 3rd, 2006, 12:06 pm

msvette2u wrote:I am by no means an expert with Pits, far from it, but from what I know, a pit bull that shows human aggression should be PTS. I know enough to know also that aggression and PP work or bite work are two different things but still, it seems wrong to encourage a trait in a dog that shouldn't have that trait. Maybe it works with a few of your dogs, but you know the breed and know which ones will be "safe". Who else will have those skills or, like Mr. Boxing gloves, just think they do?


I am honestly confused here.

first you say "a pit bull that shows human aggression should be PTS" - which I agree with.

Then you say "I know enough to know also that aggression and PP work or bite work are two different things"

aggression and PP work or bite work are two different things

If you know and understand that aggression is different than PP training then I'm not sure what the issue is here?

"it seems wrong to encourage a trait in a dog that shouldn't have that trait." But you just said that you understand that aggression is different than PP training? PP training is not a trait.
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17232
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby dogcrazyjen » April 3rd, 2006, 2:42 pm

I was going to say the same thing. For responsible folks, PP pit bulls will breed relatively unchanged, although I cannot help but think that the pits and even my bull terrier would let go AS SOON as the decoy yelped. I guess to me the moment the decoy acts out pain, a proper pit should spit that sleeve out in fear of hurting the person.

So maybe I do agree that breeding for PP temperment is breeding lack of bite inhibition. Training PP but not basing a line on PP performance will not effect the breed as a whole.

Now maybe in this I am wrong. This is where I am coming from.
When Tess bit me (I tried to save my beer AND break up a dog fight, not good) when I yelped her eyes widened and you could almost hear her say OH $HIT! as she spit my arm out. She had no clue it was me she bit until I yelled. She was devistated that she had bit me, and she was practically leaving skid marks trying to get away from the other dog, which has never happened before (her backing down). I have not seen her act like that in any other situation. And yes I have hollared before during a fight.

So to me she has a line that genetically or behaviorally she will not cross.

If you 'cull' out those dogs, and only breed dogs which will continue tugging dispite the protests, then aren't you in a subtle way breeding for lack of bite inhibition?

That it an honest question, it seems to make sense to me, but sometimes these things are counter intuitive.
dogcrazyjen
Devoutly Bully
 
Posts: 922
Location: FingerLakes NY

Postby pitbullmamaliz » April 3rd, 2006, 2:45 pm

Michelle did you get my PM?
User avatar
pitbullmamaliz
Working out in the buff causes chafing
 
Posts: 15437
Location: Cleveland, OH

Postby mnp13 » April 3rd, 2006, 2:56 pm

pitbullmamaliz wrote:Michelle did you get my PM?


nope... I'll go look...
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17232
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby Maryellen » April 3rd, 2006, 3:32 pm

another thing, at one point michelle you said connor went after a jacket a kid was wearing cause it looked like what he trains with.. now, how do you separate training from the real thing - connor saw the arm movement of a teenager in a jacket that looked like a decoy jacket, and he made a move to the jacket that you and patrick saw as not good. so if connor cant tell the difference between a teenager waving his arm a certain way in a look alike jacket how will other dogs tell the difference? thats another reason why i feel pit bulls shouldnt be doing bite work stuff of any kind.
Maryellen
I live here
 
Posts: 5971

Postby mnp13 » April 3rd, 2006, 3:37 pm

Maryellen wrote:another thing, at one point michelle you said connor went after a jacket a kid was wearing cause it looked like what he trains with.. now, how do you separate training from the real thing - connor saw the arm movement of a teenager in a jacket that looked like a decoy jacket, and he made a move to the jacket that you and patrick saw as not good. so if connor cant tell the difference between a teenager waving his arm a certain way in a look alike jacket how will other dogs tell the difference? thats another reason why i feel pit bulls shouldnt be doing bite work stuff of any kind.


First, that was well over a year ago. It was a combination of things all at the same time that Connor read incorrectly. Breed has nothing to do with it at all. It was also a flaw in his training, which has long been corrected.
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17232
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby babyreba » April 3rd, 2006, 3:48 pm

I don't want to pick on Connor here, so let's remove Connnor from the situation. You and Demo too.

A pit bull dog that is in its early stages of learning bitework is out and about with its owner, for the sake of argument, let's say it's someone who was attracted to PP work by reading this forum and seeing how jazzed people get about it. Someone who just started working in it, someone who is still considered a "novice" handler.

So while they are walking, a moron teenager in a puffy coat dances and flops around like a loon in the park they are walking through. The handler and dog are passing by, but the handler doesn't panic because he knows his dog is not human aggressive. So he's slow on the take when the dog reacts to the stimulus its used to seeing during training and . . . jumps up to take a bite. The handler is slow on the take, partly because he has never seen his dog do this before and it happens so fast all he can do is damage control at this point.

Media is called, dog is in the spotlight, media (oh, let's say it's Fox News and its incredibly sensational) decides to play up the fact that the owner has enrolled the dog in bite training and does an extensive series on how seemingly nice, normal people are training their pit bulls to ATTACK people, when everyone knows these dogs are already unstable. Plus, they have extra biting power and jaws that lock, making them exceptional at this "sport," so that's why people are now training them to be super protection machines. It's a menace, Joe Q. Public, you should write your Congressperson.

That's what I worry about. And that's what I think when I see new people enamored of this sport and think it's a good idea to involve their pit bulls in them.

Eeek, makes my poor head hurt to think of it.
User avatar
babyreba
Supremely Bully
 
Posts: 1132

Postby Maryellen » April 3rd, 2006, 4:08 pm

even though it was over year ago, its the fact that connor read into it wrong thnking a teenager was a decoy or bad person.. thats what i mean, the newbie people that just get into this breed and see this type of training that want to get involved dont understand the basics and what it takes, its more like an accident waiting to happen..

if connor in training couldnt distinguish between a kid in a puffy jacket vs a decoy how many other pit bulls will do the same thing?
Maryellen
I live here
 
Posts: 5971

Postby Romanwild » April 3rd, 2006, 4:20 pm

Him "looking" at the jacket compared to actually biting it are two different things.

Those of us who play tug should stop as well because what if a child has a toy that your dog thinks is a tug?

Dreyfus loves his laser or anything with a light. What the hell should I do?
User avatar
Romanwild
I live here
 
Posts: 2931
Location: Watertown NY

Postby mnp13 » April 3rd, 2006, 4:25 pm

aren’t you following this?

you are using the same arguments that the BSL people use.

We need to ban Pit Bulls because the irrseponsible people who have them make them dangerous. It doesn’t matter that responsible owners are the ones who suffer, we have to hang everyone out to dry because the bad people give the dogs a bad name.

or the anti-gun lobby (what law abiding citizen has a need for a gun?)

or the anti-prong collar people (why would you ever hurt your dog?)

or the anti-e-collar people (why would anyone ever electrocute their dog?)

or any of the other hot button topics that focus on the punishing the responsible people because of what the irresponsible people might do.

As a responsible owner, it is my responsibility to find a qualified trainer to assess my dog’s temperament, then implement correct training methods and my job as a handler to always be aware of my dog and my surroundings.

Obedience, control and responsibility are all part of responsible ownership AND responsible training – regardless of the type of training in question.
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17232
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby Maryellen » April 3rd, 2006, 4:32 pm

all i am doing is asking a hypothetical question.. i am curious as to the sport, and i feel that the more questions i ask themore i can understand the Why and how....

and no charles, just because a dog plays tug doesnt mean the dog will perceive all toys as tug toys.. some dogs might, some wont.. which is why i am asking alot of questions.. i am trying to understand.
Maryellen
I live here
 
Posts: 5971

Postby mnp13 » April 3rd, 2006, 4:41 pm

Maryellen wrote:and no charles, just because a dog plays tug doesnt mean the dog will perceive all toys as tug toys.. some dogs might, some wont.. which is why i am asking alot of questions.. i am trying to understand.


You are answering your own question here.

Just because a dog has done bite work does not mean that dog will see anyone in a winter jacket as a decoy.

That happened well over a year ago. The difference was that the dog in question was correctly handled by an alert, aware owner.

Like you said, some dogs will see every stuffed animal as a toy to be killed and will yank it out of a kids hand. Some dogs understand that if a kid has a toy, if they touch it they may meet Jesus.

In ALL cases with ALL training, everything depends on responsible owners and dogs with correct temperament for the activity that is being trained for.
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17232
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby Jenn » April 3rd, 2006, 4:49 pm

As a responsible owner, it is my responsibility to find a qualified trainer to assess my dog’s temperament, then implement correct training methods and my job as a handler to always be aware of my dog and my surroundings.


I think it's very important, to realize one thing that I've gathered. Not just from this post, but from other boards, and other discussions. NOT every dog or dog owner will have a dog that is cut out for PP work. Most dogs can't handle the stress, nor be able to do what is being asked of them. It takes a very confident, well rounded dog to be able to handle this type of request from an owner.
Like I've stated previously ~it's the idiots in a front yard, in a park, uncontrolled environment etc. that can just go right out and buy a sleeve. These people think that because they've taught their dogs to react and bite the sleeve, that they have accomplished something. When in fact the dogs don't listen to commands, clearly disrespect the owner and are dangerous (IMO) PERIOD!! I've seen this sort of idiot, I've personally seen their videos and so called "training", I've seen their websites and their advertisements for puppies... I was horrified!!
I've now seen other videos, I've seen obedient dogs, I respect the time they've put in not only the "work", but obedience as well, I've read knowledgeable people telling people their dog is weak, and not cut out for the sport. I try to keep an open mind, and just like everything else see all sides before I form an opinion. I also don't see where anyone here, has encouraged improper training with an idiot trainer (or not one at all) or pushed the issue of everyone getting involved with PP with their dogs. I've seen videos, pictures, and posts sharing activities they do with their dogs, and posts about responsibility, as well as being a responsible owner.
User avatar
Jenn
undecided
 
Posts: 11382
Location: TX

Postby cheekymunkee » April 3rd, 2006, 5:15 pm

I don't see these as human aggressive dogs. I see them as dog that are being trained to do something they wouldn't normally do. In the videos I see amazing obedience skills being practiced, a human aggressive dog would not be able to control itself in these situations.....would it? :|
There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.

Debby
User avatar
cheekymunkee
I Have Your Grass
 
Posts: 28540
Location: Dallas

Postby dogcrazyjen » April 3rd, 2006, 8:27 pm

Human aggression and bite inhibition are two separate things. My point was that by breeding for PP pits will eventually be breeding out bite inhibition. My dal whippet is not human aggressive, but he has no bite inhibition. If you are playing rough, he will mouth your hand and arm in increasing intensity to the game. If you do not slow the game down he will draw blood eventually, assuming you want to keep ramping up the game. Tess absolutely panicked when she bit me, she has bite inhibition. She will not mouth my hand or arm no matter how rough we play. The bull terrier also has bite inhibition.

Just because a dog has done bite work does not mean that dog will see anyone in a winter jacket as a decoy.

That happened well over a year ago. The difference was that the dog in question was correctly handled by an alert, aware owner.


If you had not, or if the decoy look alike did not handle it well, there could be another nail in the pit coffin.

There IS a chance that any newly PP trained dog could take a child or adult in a snow suit or coat to be a decoy unless it is being expertly handled. You cannot explain to that person "oh sorry, he thought you were a giant tug toy." as they lay there bleeding. Tallulah does look at kids toys as hers. I warn kids if they want to pet my dog, they need to put the toy down. If she dove in for a toy, most parents can understand that she wanted the toy, not the person. When the dog is going after the person, what can you say? Again, I understand that well trained PP dogs do not do this. But how many are well trained?

The difference between letting the averarge person own a pit vs having the average person doing PP with a pit is that the average pit has bite inhibition and even in ignorant hands is unlikely to be a danger to people.

There is a huge difference in not supporting PP work with pits, and banning pits. That is a red herring. No one here suggested banning PP work in pits, we said we do not think it is a good idea. The reasons are valid, and are for the good of the breed as we see it.
dogcrazyjen
Devoutly Bully
 
Posts: 922
Location: FingerLakes NY

Postby mnp13 » April 3rd, 2006, 8:40 pm

dogcrazyjen wrote:If you had not, or if the decoy look alike did not handle it well, there could be another nail in the pit coffin.


And if you dropped your leash when a yappy little ankle biter ran up to your dog and started trouble, it would be another nail in the Pit coffin.

There IS a chance that any newly PP trained dog could take a child or adult in a snow suit or coat to be a decoy unless it is being expertly handled.


Uh, no, handeled by a person who is aware of their surroundings. No more and no less than watching for dogs that are running loose when you are on a walk. It's called being aware. I spent a year with a dog that wanted to kill anything and everything on four legs. I paid attention to what was going on around me.

Again, I understand that well trained PP dogs do not do this. But how many are well trained?


Again, don't judge the responsible owners and trainers by the actions of the idiots.

There is a huge difference in not supporting PP work with pits, and banning pits. That is a red herring. No one here suggested banning PP work in pits, we said we do not think it is a good idea. The reasons are valid, and are for the good of the breed as we see it.


The reasons may be valid, but they are suspiciously similar to the arguements used to support BSL. Using the actions of irresponsible to support your arguement is the same thing that the BSL people do.
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17232
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby babyreba » April 3rd, 2006, 9:10 pm

I think the difference between this convo and BSL is no one here is trying to ban anyone from doing anything.

People are suggesting that pit bull owners self-police and avoid doing things that put the image of the breed in jeopardy. Something we ask breeders to do, something we ask rescues to do, something we ask responsible owners to do.

I see no one suggesting that we outlaw PP or bitework for any breed of dog.
User avatar
babyreba
Supremely Bully
 
Posts: 1132

Postby mnp13 » April 3rd, 2006, 9:38 pm

I didn't say anyone was suggesting banning bitework for Pit Bulls.

the arguements that are being used against bitework are very similar to the ones used to support BSL. When you base your opinion on media frenzy, what if's and use the example of what irresponsible people do - your arguement is not a solid one, in my opinion.

I don't understand how you can think it's ok for other breeds to do bite work, because it "doesn't matter" what the public thinks of them. Bias against training (regardless of breed) is still bias - just like the arguements against any sort of compulsion training.

As it has been pointed out (by people on both sides of the discussion) aggression is not the issue here.
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17232
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby dogcrazyjen » April 3rd, 2006, 9:47 pm

Exactly reba. Bitework is a chosen action, not a breed of dog. Bitework can be discouraged with pits without damaging anything. Banning pits is basically damning a whole breed to extinction, and screwing the majority of owners based on fear and quite frankly incorrect information like locking jaws. Apples and oranges.

You could say that many things are judged by the actions of a few, from gun ownership to all men being treated as potential rapists to lawn darts to banning cell phones in cars. Some have merit, some do not. That does not mean they are all the same, just because the means for deciding are the same. Lawn darts were not acceptable because the risk was deemed as far outweighing the good. Guns hopefully that is not going to happen. Pits, hopefully that will not happen. Bitework with pits? I think discouraging it is a lesser evil than banning the breed. I think the bad will at some point far outweigh the good. I think that for every Chris there will be a dozen jack a$$es giving pits a bad name. And even with Chris, I am on the fence as far as total good vs total potential bad PR.

So is everyone who does bitework as aware of their surroundings as you are?

Pits are not getting bad raps due to dog aggression, they are getting bad raps due to people aggression. Chessies are notoriously bad with other dogs, but I do not see them being banned or even questioned. It is the maulings that make the news-when a pit lacks bite inhibition and flips the switch on a human. What we are talking about it using PP to counteract bite inhibition in dogs that are able and possibly create breed lines based on that lack. And having the average idiot think that anyone can do this.

Again, this is all opinion. No one is talking about making law here. I do not think that people who do bitework responsibly are evil or bad trainers, or are intentionally out to ruin the breed. I have a great respect for Chris, and others who do this well. But that doesn't mean I agree with everything they do. I assume for example that Chris would feel Tess should be put down for her fear issues, based on his previous posts. But that does not mean I have to agree, or that he thinks I am an idiot. We all do things that others will disagree with.

I do like that about this board, that we can discuss these things without it getting personal. I am enjoying this discussion, and I hope we can all keep this going as civily as we are.

And Chris, I am sorry I seem to be singling you out. It really is a compliment, believe it or not. :oops:
dogcrazyjen
Devoutly Bully
 
Posts: 922
Location: FingerLakes NY

PreviousNext

Return to Sports

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

cron