OFFICIAL Bitework/Personal Protection Debate Thread

Weight pull, Protection, Agility, Flyball... you name it!

Postby mnp13 » May 20th, 2006, 5:32 pm

I have read about dogs who where injured and one that was killed due to inexpirienced decoys.


Yes, there are accidents. Even experienced decoys have injured dogs. Though it does happen, it is not a daily occurance. The dogs are too valuable to their owners to risk them on somone who is inexperienced and unsupervised.

Frankly, it is much more likely you will get injured as a decoy. I know someone who has what appears to be perminant nerve damage to their face, which will most likely lead to three root canals and ongoing balance problems; all from being dumped on their face by a dog during a training exercise.

Bite wounds are pretty much a given, but they can still be very serious.
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Postby LindsaySF » May 21st, 2006, 11:04 pm

Ok, I just read through all the posts. Wow this is a tough topic!!

I'm a little on the fence here. While my gut reaction is to say "OMG you're encouraging human aggression!" I do realize this is not the case at all...


I agree with whoever said we are weeding out bite inhibition. And this does seem dangerous to me. The dog in the video was obviously very well behaved and you could tell how much training went into him. He did not bite until commanded, and it was obvious that he was not human aggressive.

But the thought that we are training our dogs to not care when a person screams out in pain, to not let up until we decide they should, bothers me. As much as I may want my dog to be protective of me, I also don't want him to be oblivious to another person's screams of pain...

I'm not entirely comfortable with bite work being done with other breeds either (GSD's, etc) unless it has a purpose (police, etc). But I am most uncomfortable with it being done with pit bulls. The current pit bull craze is just insane right now. Do we really want to feed the media frenzy? :|

Now I'm not suggesting that there be a ban on bite-work with pit bulls. That would be breed discrimination. But I do think it is the responsibility of pit bull owners to make sure that pit bulls get a positive image in the media. Bite-work with GSD's is pretty much "accepted" by the general public, especially because of their use with the police. But pit bulls biting people, no matter how well trained they are, may never be accepted or portrayed as anything positive...

With there being so many activities you can do with your bully breed, I don't see why bite work has to be one of them. If you love bite work so much, why not use a dog that is often associated with it (in the general public's mind) like a GSD?

Is it fair that pit bulls are portrayed so negatively in the media? No. Is it fair that as an owner of a bully breed you have a responsibility to help promote the breed's positive image? No. Is it fair that there are certain activities that will be portrayed negatively if you engage in them with your pit bull? Absolutely not. But life is not fair. And I for one don't want my ability to own a pit bull to be threatened by some idiot trying to teach his pit bull to be an attack dog...


mnp13 wrote:Aggression comes from fear, not confidence. The best dogs in protection sport are not the aggressive ones, they are the confident ones.

Aggression does not always come from fear. Aggression comes from many sources, and in my experience with pit bulls, I have seen quite a few dominant ones. If you are saying that the confident dogs (to me, confident often = more dominant) are the best dogs for bite-work, this does not sit well with me. Perhaps you could elaborate on this?


mnp13 wrote:the stick is used for pressure. To say "they are hitting the dog with a stick" is not the same as actually being there and watching and understanding how it is used (it's hard to explain, much like explaining prong collars to people who have never used one or seen one used). The dog is not being beaten. Does it hurt? yes. Does it cause injury? no.

Wow. I'm having a really hard time responding to this.

What gives you the right to intentionally hurt another living creature? It doesn't matter that hitting it with the stick did not cause an injury. Why must you inflict pain on the animal in the first place? If the dog is so well trained, why must pain be part of the equation here?

I have MAJOR problems with any "sport" that requires the dog to be in pain for it. Hurting an animal and making it feel pain is not a sport to me. It is animal abuse. Maybe this is just me, but this is not far off from the reasoning given by dog fighters. They probably also claim the sticks they use to beat their dogs are just for "pressure"... :rolleyes2:



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Postby LindsaySF » May 21st, 2006, 11:09 pm

In bite work, the dog is taught what a threat is and what it is not. The dog is taught how to deal with threats and what to do when that threat is no longer a threat. there is thought and problem solving involved on the part of the dog.

This sounds wonderful to me. But I have a few questions here...

If the dog does determine that someone/something is a threat, what does it do about it? How is it trained to respond? Does it bite now, or only when commanded to do so?

If the threat is no longer a threat, does the dog leave the person alone? Or only when commanded to do so? :|


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Postby LindsaySF » May 21st, 2006, 11:12 pm

Romanwild wrote:Those of us who play tug should stop as well because what if a child has a toy that your dog thinks is a tug?

Actually, I think people should NOT engage in tug-of-war play with their dogs unless the dog firmly knows and responds to the "drop it" command. A large dog that is just playing can easily hurt a child by playing an innocent tug-of-war game with its sleeve...

A dog that does not recognize 'his' toys should also not be allowed to play tug. (A sock or a child's toy, for example, are not appropriate toys, and the dog should recognize this).


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Postby Magnolia618 » May 22nd, 2006, 2:29 am

Actually, I think people should NOT engage in tug-of-war play with their dogs unless the dog firmly knows and responds to the "drop it" command. A large dog that is just playing can easily hurt a child by playing an innocent tug-of-war game with its sleeve...


I'll tell Maggie that next time she attacks a child. lol
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Postby LindsaySF » May 22nd, 2006, 7:11 am

Magnolia618 wrote:I'll tell Maggie that next time she attacks a child. lol

Huh? :|


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Postby dogcrazyjen » May 22nd, 2006, 8:26 am

Aggression comes from fear, not confidence. The best dogs in protection sport are not the aggressive ones, they are the confident ones.


I skipped this comment when it first came out because I was still a little stung at being told I know "nothing" about dog behavior (a bit of an exaggeration at best.)

Prey aggression has little or nothing to do with fear. Toy and food aggression can have nothing to do with fear. Resource guarding can come from fear, or it can come from being selfish (my bull terrier is like that..MINE!!!.)Dominance aggression is not fear based, unless you stretch to say that the dog fears others being dominant over him, which IS a stretch. The most confident dog will correct another for being out of line-if that other is a human, that certainly is unacceptable aggression. Aggression answering aggression is not always fear based; one dog starts a fight the other willfully joins in (Tess and Tallulah, for example).
Some dogs certainly can be fearful in their aggression, I had a preemptive fear biter towards other dogs. She learned to put on a huge show of aggression in order to keep others away, lunging, growling, snapping, barking. Dogs can do this to humans as well, and we all have met fear biters who snap at the last second out of fear.

I am assuming you were speaking of 'aggression' seen in bitework, that only fearful dogs need to show aggression. I still think that statement does not make sense. You are training a dog to display aggressive behaviors on command. So I guess in order to really understand what you were trying to say, could you please define aggression so I can understand where you are coming from?
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Postby SisMorphine » May 22nd, 2006, 8:35 am

LindsaySF wrote:
mnp13 wrote:Aggression comes from fear, not confidence. The best dogs in protection sport are not the aggressive ones, they are the confident ones.

Aggression does not always come from fear. Aggression comes from many sources, and in my experience with pit bulls, I have seen quite a few dominant ones. If you are saying that the confident dogs (to me, confident often = more dominant) are the best dogs for bite-work, this does not sit well with me. Perhaps you could elaborate on this?


My Grey is an extremely dominant boy. Most people laugh at me when I say this because they walk into my house and he's hanging out, sleeping, most often won't even get up to say hello if someone new walks in. But put him out in the kennel yard and watch him. He stands tall and walks around all of the dogs in pure confidence, but does not do things like throw his head over other dogs necks, go after the dogs in the yard just because, or any other "in your face" dominant moves. He is confidently dominant. If two dogs are playing and he feels it is going to escalate, then he will throw himself in the middle and tell the dogs to back down by snapping and growling at them. He will snap at, growl, and pin a dog who is jumping on him. Is this aggression? No. It is dominance. It is confident dominance. He has never put a hole in a dog, even though he has been pushed hard by many many dogs. He has never put a hole in a person. If he had more teeth (just had 17 taken out) I would absolutely be training him for bitework without the fear that he would transfer it onto people.

No, I would not be teaching him that biting people if a good idea. The guy in the suit is a BIG squeaky toy! Think about it, he's puffy, a squeaking toy is puffy. Dog bites squeaky toy, it squeaks. Dog bites bite suit, it squeaks. AWESOME! Giant squeaky toy!!

The dogs I saw work this weekend knew it was play. You saw one go and get a few good bites in on the decoy, and then go be social with him and give kisses. THAT is the type of dog you want to use in this sport.

There are people out there who will foster aggression because they feel that the dog needs to be aggressive to bite people and this is the wrong way to do it.

Until you actually see it done, and see it done the right way, it is very hard to explain. I am just beginning to learn about it myself and really it is the highest form of obedience there is.
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Postby Magnolia618 » May 22nd, 2006, 8:37 am

LindsaySF wrote:
Magnolia618 wrote:I'll tell Maggie that next time she attacks a child. lol

Huh? :|


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She's ummm... not so good at the "drop it" command :oops:

She's great with kids, though :| She can definitely differentiate between a tug toy and a kid's arm.

She just loves her tug way too much.


I swear, my other dogs are well-behaved! lol Maggie is too, but she's just spoiled rotten.
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Postby dogcrazyjen » May 22nd, 2006, 8:54 am

No, I would not be teaching him that biting people if a good idea. The guy in the suit is a BIG squeaky toy! Think about it, he's puffy, a squeaking toy is puffy. Dog bites squeaky toy, it squeaks. Dog bites bite suit, it squeaks. AWESOME! Giant squeaky toy!!


I am very curious to see if when YOU say this you will be told you know nothing about dog behavior. I agree with you, btw, although I have concerns about people wearing big puffy clothing like winter coats and snow suits.
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Postby SisMorphine » May 22nd, 2006, 9:11 am

dogcrazyjen wrote:
No, I would not be teaching him that biting people if a good idea. The guy in the suit is a BIG squeaky toy! Think about it, he's puffy, a squeaking toy is puffy. Dog bites squeaky toy, it squeaks. Dog bites bite suit, it squeaks. AWESOME! Giant squeaky toy!!


I am very curious to see if when YOU say this you will be told you know nothing about dog behavior. I agree with you, btw, although I have concerns about people wearing big puffy clothing like winter coats and snow suits.

LOL! I'm sure I will be told that.

Frankly I still have concerns myself, but it's because I don't know enough about bitework to NOT have those concerns. I used to be afraid of bitework, period, and terrified of the dogs that did it (of any breed) because I didn't understand it and damn it looks scary!

But I really do urge people to go watch a reputable trainer doing bitework the right way (ie: without fostering aggression) and you will have a better understanding of the sport. Much better. I couldn't be any happier that I did that and I continue to learn more each time I go up there to watch it. I have so much more to learn, and I would LOVE IT if anyone who is into bitework can go through my posts and correct me where I may be mistaken, but this is how I have percieved things (some being explained to me, others by just watching) and I do want to make sure I'm not giving out the wrong info.
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Postby LindsaySF » May 22nd, 2006, 9:20 am

Magnolia618 wrote:She's ummm... not so good at the "drop it" command :oops:
She's great with kids, though :| She can definitely differentiate between a tug toy and a kid's arm.
She just loves her tug way too much.

My dogs are the same way. They respond to the drop it command most of the time, but not always. And they do know which toys are theirs. But it is ok because there are no children in my house.


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Postby LindsaySF » May 22nd, 2006, 9:23 am

dogcrazyjen wrote:I skipped this comment when it first came out because I was still a little stung at being told I know "nothing" about dog behavior (a bit of an exaggeration at best.)

Thanks for the reply. I am glad that I am not the only one that was bothered by this comment. :|


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Postby LindsaySF » May 22nd, 2006, 9:32 am

SisMorphine wrote:He will snap at, growl, and pin a dog who is jumping on him. Is this aggression? No. It is dominance. It is confident dominance. He has never put a hole in a dog, even though he has been pushed hard by many many dogs. He has never put a hole in a person. If he had more teeth (just had 17 taken out) I would absolutely be training him for bitework without the fear that he would transfer it onto people.

Well, this type of dominance is still aggression to me. Sure it serves a purpose, to establish his place in the hierarchy, but growling and snapping is still aggression. He doesn't have to make contact for it to be aggression.

Now there are dominant behaviors that are not aggressive. This would include eye-staring, putting a paw on another dog's back (or repeatedly on a person's arm), mounting, placing a chin on another dog's back, etc. But once growling or snapping starts, that is dominance aggression.

And just to clarify, the type of dominance aggression I was referring to in my post was human-directed dominance aggression, not dog-directed. A dog showing dominance to other dogs does not bother me, that is normal. But a dog showing dominance over humans is not a dog I would want doing bitework.


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Postby SisMorphine » May 22nd, 2006, 9:45 am

There is a big difference between aggression and correction. For me it's something that I can just feel and know when I'm watching dogs play, I have a tough time putting it into words. Any trainers out there want to take on the difference between aggression and correction . . . or anyone who has a better handle on definitions? I really don't want to try and end up muddling it all up.
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Postby dogcrazyjen » May 22nd, 2006, 9:48 am

I would be interested in this myself. Corrections on a dog and corrections on a human may feel the same to a dominant dog, but will be labeled corrections on the dog, and aggression on the people.

Maybe we need to define things before we can discuss them. Do we define them based on dog intentions, or human interpretations?
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Postby SisMorphine » May 22nd, 2006, 9:56 am

dogcrazyjen wrote:I would be interested in this myself. Corrections on a dog and corrections on a human may feel the same to a dominant dog, but will be labeled corrections on the dog, and aggression on the people.

Maybe we need to define things before we can discuss them. Do we define them based on dog intentions, or human interpretations?

Personally I feel that "aggression" is often being thrown around for corrections on humans (and dogs) when it's unecessary. Corrections from dog to human are still that, corrections, but the dogs just need to be taught that they can't correct us the way they correct a subordinate dog because the humans are actually in charge. You don't see a lower dog correcting a higher one.

I think we need to define them on the base level of meaning and work from there.
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Postby msvette2u » May 22nd, 2006, 9:56 am

dogcrazyjen wrote:
Aggression comes from fear, not confidence. The best dogs in protection sport are not the aggressive ones, they are the confident ones.


I skipped this comment when it first came out because I was still a little stung at being told I know "nothing" about dog behavior (a bit of an exaggeration at best.)



There are 10 types of aggression listed here.
http://www.unclematty.com/training/aggressiontypes.htm
If bite work dogs are not aggressive, which is the drive behind getting them to bite/attack? I'm assuming it's a prey drive but here it's listed as one of the types of aggression.
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Postby Magnolia618 » May 22nd, 2006, 10:10 am

Here's a question...

Is a dog who looooves to play "tug" being aggressive? My Maggie sounds nasty when she plays. She growls and tugs and tugs and tugs and whines and snorts and growls some more.


Is she going to attack someone next? She she being an aggressive dog?
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Postby dogcrazyjen » May 22nd, 2006, 10:18 am

I thought that some of the dogs looked like they were working with play drive. The actions were that of a dog which is being controlled through toy drive-smiling, bouncing, wagging the tail furiously, looking furtively at the decoy then back to the handler. The release to bite appeared to be the reward, and the dog was tugging hard. Most bullies I have seen were like this.


Some looked like they were prey motivated, they wanted to hunt down the decoy, upright stance, lunging, stiff, hard glares at the decoy. The dogs when biting were biting forward, not tugging as much. Shepherds tended to look like this.

I am sure there are many drives intermixing, pack drive, protectiveness, prey, play, etc.


But then again, what do I know?
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