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Postby luvmypitties » December 20th, 2006, 11:26 am

I work for a training/boarding and breeding kennel in Northern VA. They mostly deal with Labs but do work with other field breeds. Their type of training is forced using electronic collars and heeling sticks. Dogs, especially the ones working on field work spend pretty much their whole training session getting fried. Their owners leave them there for 5 weeks for obedience and 6 weeks for gun dog/ retriever training. With retriever training they will twitch the ear meaning they will pinch on the inside until the dog cries out in pain and with shove a bumper in the dogs mouth and then proceed to hit the bottom jaw until the dog holds it in its mouth. There is also some punching and kicking of the dogs. This woman has been doing this for just about 30 years now. The state has been out and investigated the training and they left saying they see why she does this type of training.

The workers there have to go around and hit the dogs with the heeling sticks (look like whips to me) and you will get in trouble if you dont do it hard enough. I personally never use one and would prefer to put a bark collar on them when I am there. I figure less painful then getting hit all the time.

I was going to participate in training puppies there (i figured they would go easy on the 4 month olds) and I soon dropped out from doing that. I worked with one pup on walking on a leash using choke chain and he got pretty good. Then we worked on heel and if he stepped out of my imaginary box I would tug on the CC and he would get next to me. I was proud at how far he came with his come, heel and sit I showed the traininer/owner and she said now we have to perfect it. USING THE STICK. So she handed me the stick and told me to hit him on the butt everytime he stepped out of that 'box' so i did (it was like touching his butt with the stick, I was doing no hitting) then she wanted me to hit him everytime I told him to sit so he would see the concequences (sp?) if he didnt. So I said well I think that puppy has had enough trainin for the day and put him back in his run. I couldnt do that!

So this is just some of the stuff I have had to deal with and why I am quitting. I cant stand watching the dogs cry in pain and see their bodies jerk around from being shocked repeatedly. Not my kind of place. My dad got a puppy from them (in exchange for putting up lights around the kennel) and we are glad he will never go through anything like that!!
Tina
Our thoughts and prayers are with Mick and Christine! We love you both!

RIP my precious Noah! You are greatly missed and still so loved!!! 7-12-06-- 2-21-07
RIP Abby! I always loved you!
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Postby SisMorphine » December 20th, 2006, 11:40 am

Sad isn't it? And SO MANY people train like that! It's horrendous. I met a Mal a few months ago, 8 months on, is on an e-collar. Now I thought THAT was bad, but I just heard of two trainers who have 8 week old pups with e-collars on!!!! What is the point of that? To crush the dog? To make it feel pain, to make it only know pain? I'm sorry, but that is just horrific. There are other ways to train, there are other ways to teach a dog to retrieve, that aren't so painful and forced. Unfortunately most trainers learn one way and stick with it because everyone's always done it that way and they're stubborn.

But as I always say, I true trainer will be willing to learn different ways to train and will happily add more to their repetoire if they see it as effective, or even get rid of their old ways of training if they realize that it's archaic.
"All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another." -Anatole France
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Postby luvmypitties » December 20th, 2006, 11:43 am

she said she has been doing this for longer than I have been a live and it works for her and what she wants out of her dogs. She wont be changing anytime soon.

The puppies I train there (up to when they get sold) I use positive rewards for when they retrieve the bird wing. The puppies absolutely love it! I have one male pup who will retrieve it no matter what but when i get excited that he brings it back to me he has an extra bounce in his step and he is so happy he cries when he gets to me...lol
Tina
Our thoughts and prayers are with Mick and Christine! We love you both!

RIP my precious Noah! You are greatly missed and still so loved!!! 7-12-06-- 2-21-07
RIP Abby! I always loved you!
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Postby SisMorphine » December 20th, 2006, 12:02 pm

Amazing what a little bit of positive reinforcement does! I loved watching people compete this past summer. There was a HUGE difference in attitude between the dogs who were trained motivationally (mostly dogs from our club) and the ones who were zapped into position their whole lives. The motivational dogs were HAPPY! Prancing has they heeled, heads held high. The others were either A)slinking around, always weary of the handler, worried they would get zapped or B) realized they didn't have an e-collar on and would just go crazy doing whatever they wanted.
"All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another." -Anatole France
SisMorphine
They're like service dogs gone wrong.
 
Posts: 9233
Location: PR

Postby brooksybrooks1 » December 20th, 2006, 12:14 pm

it's strange to me how some people train dogs, because you have to assume that they went into the field because they like dogs, but this is how they treat them? it's like people who get married and beat their wives, i don't get it. on the other hand, while i don't recommend e collar as a training method, i feel like sometimes if you put it in the hands of a professional (a non sadistic one that is) and they are used properly, sometimes they can be effective for barking or fence fighting or stuff like that, and usually all it takes is one or two shocks at low setting for the dog to get it. if you do it right and the dog isn't collar wise, the dog can really benefit from it and not get all emotionally messed up.
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Postby luvmypitties » December 20th, 2006, 12:21 pm

I am not saying that the electronic collar is a horrible thing. I do agree that if used right in the right situation it cane be helpful.

Its sad to see this one 7 month old puppy who is getting forced retriever training have no pep in his step at all. He doesnt get excited about anything. Not even when I take him out with the other dogs, Nothing. It is like a robot! SAD! :(
Tina
Our thoughts and prayers are with Mick and Christine! We love you both!

RIP my precious Noah! You are greatly missed and still so loved!!! 7-12-06-- 2-21-07
RIP Abby! I always loved you!
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Posts: 4549
Location: Fredericksburg VA

Postby mnp13 » December 20th, 2006, 12:22 pm

I guess I'm really confused... the Lab that I grew up with would retreive anything you threw and loved to carry things with her. Why do they have to FORCE the dogs to do it?
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
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Postby luvmypitties » December 20th, 2006, 12:34 pm

They are forced to do it because they have to pick up on command and hold it until released.

I think she would have better results getting the dogs excited about this toy.

After all the training and everything is done the dogs have fun if they dont mess up. I have seen her best male dog in action and he is good and loves to retrieve and work... maybe its so he doesnt get shocked but he looked like he was having fun to me? :|
Tina
Our thoughts and prayers are with Mick and Christine! We love you both!

RIP my precious Noah! You are greatly missed and still so loved!!! 7-12-06-- 2-21-07
RIP Abby! I always loved you!
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luvmypitties
I live here
 
Posts: 4549
Location: Fredericksburg VA

Postby mnp13 » December 20th, 2006, 12:36 pm

I guess they needed to see a dog like Agatha who would hold anything you gave her until you asked for it. :|

I find the forced retreive to be very disturbing. And, unfortunately, e-collars are not the worst thing that is used for force retreives.
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
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Postby brooksybrooks1 » December 20th, 2006, 1:19 pm

i'm new to the game, but so far i feel like as far as training for formal things like heeling and retreiving and agility and stuff you get the best results and the most balanced dog out of motivational stuff, but what do i know, that's just my experience, but i know i have a hard time justifying ever hurting an animal, emotionally or physically, especially if they don't even know why they are being punished because they haven't learned it yet.
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Postby SisMorphine » December 20th, 2006, 1:45 pm

On December 20 2006, 1:19 PM, brooksybrooks1 wrote:i'm new to the game, but so far i feel like as far as training for formal things like heeling and retreiving and agility and stuff you get the best results and the most balanced dog out of motivational stuff, but what do i know, that's just my experience, but i know i have a hard time justifying ever hurting an animal, emotionally or physically, especially if they don't even know why they are being punished because they haven't learned it yet.

It depends on the attitude of the trainer/handler. There are two main types.

Type A) I want my dog to do this because I said so. I want to win so I can have trophies and titles to shove in everyone else's face. I love to win.

Type B) I want to have fun with my dog. I want my dog to have fun with me. I want to get trophies and titles but I won't sacrifice our relationship for it. I love my dog.
"All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another." -Anatole France
SisMorphine
They're like service dogs gone wrong.
 
Posts: 9233
Location: PR


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