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Postby KaylasMomJenn » December 8th, 2006, 11:16 am

Well not many people on this board know that I at one time did have 2 Pits. Our first dog was Marshmallow, we brought her home from my husbands aunt's house (more on that later) when she was 4 months old. She had been caged with a 6 month old deaf dog since she was born, and had little to no human interaction (dogs sleep, potty, and eat in their cages at her house). We had no idea who her parents were, and she didnt come with any papers (why else would a breeder GIVE us a free dog?) She was PERFECT from the day we brought her home, no problems house training her, no HA at all, no DA (as of yet) and she's just been a complete gem with our daughter and everything. Sooo...we wanted another dog, we waited for her next litter of pups (here's the background info on this "breeder") She cages over 20 dogs in her house. They get let out once a day (if they're lucky) and none of them get any human interaction. She does register her registerable dogs, and has produced some REALLY nice looking pups.

I didn't know much about Pits until after I got Marshmallow, so I was cautious before getting a new pup. I checked the dam and sire's papers and although there was some line breeding, and I knew the dam, I was sure after paying 500 for this new pup that she'd be a top quality dog. I brought home Aries when she was about 7 weeks old. We had a VERY easy time training her, and by time she was 4 months old, was 95% potty trained, gave her paw, sat, laid down, and took commands from my 5 year old daughter. Things were going VERY well. Around 7 months of age, the little brat started SNIPPING at my daughter every chance she could get. My daughter was NEVER left unattended with her so I saw her do it every time, and it was never provoked. Well, after about 3 or 4 times, I was fed up. I told my husband to take her back to his aunts house, I couldn't have a dog around worrying that the bigger she got, the worse it was going to get. I had NO idea if I could train her to recognize my daughter as being above her as she did my husband and I. (And I tried to provoke her, I'd go to her and push her down, or lightly tug on her ear, and she didn't even look at me funny!)
My question is this: do you think that I handled that wrong? Was there something I could have, or SHOULD have done differently? I was told on another board that she needed to be put to sleep, but I did sign an agreement with his aunt that I would return her if I had problems with her. She is living there still, of course caged like all the other animals, and doesn't show outright HA from her cage, but dont know what she'd be like in a house environment. There are, btw, 2 OLDER kids living in the house who help care for the dogs, and she hasn't shown any aggression towards them-but again, it is very limited contact.

I also have one more question for you. At the end of last year, my husband and I split up, and Marshmallow moved back home with him. They were living with his brothers 2 year old Pit with a questionable temperament. His sister was taking the trash out one day, and the dogs got out. His brothers dog attacked the neighbor (left 2 gaping holes in his leg) who was walking to his car, and Marshmallow scratched the guys hand with her teeth. Both dogs were seized (after the cops came to the house where the dogs were inside acting normal, and the cops sprayed both of them in the eyes with mace!!!) and after court, decided to put the 2 year old to sleep, and the guy who got attacked admitted that Marshmallow appeared to be playing more than anything else. They quarantined her for more than 2 weeks while we went back and fourth to court, and she acted like an idiot in quarantine, but as soon as we showed up to visit her, she was her same self (we could tell she was very scared) There's a front part of the kennel where they lay, and a dark part in the back to potty in, she would sit in the back cowaring in the corner tail in between her legs, and growl at the people who walked by. They told us there were a few females that she was comfortable with. We have not had a SINGLE problem with Marshmallow since then, and I feel very comfortable with our decision not to euth her. She doesn't show any aggression in public, doesn't growl at strangers who come to the house, and has never attempted anything else like that since this happened a year ago. I chalked it up to her following a "pack" mentality and we had a trainer come to our house a few times just to let her see how she was. Do you guys have any comments on that?
And just so you guys know I wasn't on this board when this stuff happened, I was on another board, and I have learned SO much from this site, I'm hoping not to get attacked for what I'm asking. Thank you all for your responses! Sorry for such a long post!
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Postby cheekymunkee » December 8th, 2006, 12:11 pm

Nobody should attack you here for your questions.

As to your first question, I think you did the right thing. You had a contract with the breeder to return the dog if there were problems or you could not keep it. Perhaps training would have helped the situation, in fact, it very well could have. People are SOO fast to throw out the euth card when training a puppy ( or adult dog) can go a looong way. There are plenty of "off" dogs, but there are way MORE snotty puppies that need to be taught who is boss.

As to the second situation. IMO a dog should not be euthed for scratching a man's hand. If she wanted to bite him, she would have. She did not. Her fear in the kennel was just that.......fear. She was in a strange place, with strange dogs, strange people & strange noises.

I get "bit" ALL the time by my dogs. Accidents happen, teeth meet flesh, none of the "bites" I have taken from my dogs were MEANT to be bites. And it does not sound as if Marshmellow meant to hurt anyone.
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Postby SisMorphine » December 8th, 2006, 12:29 pm

As far as Aries goes:
Though hard to say, I think the dog could have probably been worked with as most dogs with problems like that can be worked with. BUT I'm in no way saying you did the wrong think by giving her back. You didn't have the knowledge nor the support to be able to handle her behavioral issues. Plus when there is a child involved you always have to be extra careful. I think people are far too eager to throw out the "human aggression = euthanasia" card. Most times it's just a problem with temperment (dominance, fear, etc) and/or training, it's NOT a truly HA dog. But you did what was best for your family. Not every dog is meant for every household. Just because a dog has issues that one person can live with doesn't mean that everyone should be able to live with that. You don't need to ever feel bad about what you did. She's happy now and isn't nipping, what more could you ask for?

As far as Marshmallow:
My mutt, Mike, was a growler when he was at the shelter. He would growl when anyone came even remotely near him. Why? HE WAS MISERABLE! You know how you want to be alone when you're miserable? Well that was him. And he figured out that through growling he could get everyone to leave him alone.
But now he's out of the shelter and in my home. He is a very social and friendly dog, and any wariness with strangers is subsiding. He is also very happy because he is having fun with training and is getting plenty of love and attention.
Dogs growl for more than just one reason. She was probably just miserable and confused as to why she had to be there and not with her family. Dogs growl from aggression, confusion, fear, etc etc etc. Provided she's not continuing this behvaior (which it doesn't sound like she is) I would say she was just miserable. But now that she's back home she's happy as hell :)
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Postby Karen » December 8th, 2006, 1:24 pm

Plus when there is a child involved you always have to be extra careful. I think people are far too eager to throw out the "human aggression = euthanasia" card. Most times it's just a problem with temperment (dominance, fear, etc) and/or training, it's NOT a truly HA dog.
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Sorry I don't buy it. At this point in time ANY pit bull that bites or makes a serious attempt to needs to be put down. The coddling and making excuses for the dogs rescues or not is getting out of hand. Improper temperment be it redirected aggression, shy, fearful, what have you is just that, IMPROPER. We are dealing with a UKC judge who made all the excuses you guys are and her dog BIT a person at a show. The dog is barred from UKC and the breeder/judge is going to try and get her reinstated. Unacceptable.
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Postby KaylasMomJenn » December 8th, 2006, 3:12 pm

Thank you for your replies. I am the first to admit that I had no idea what I was doing when I first got these dogs. I had grown up with Siberians, poodles, even a chow, and had NO idea the amount of responsibility it took to raise a Pit Bull. I know SO much more now, and I know that it is owners like I was, who are doing this breed so much harm. I still feel like I wouldn't have handled things differently knowing what I know now. I was told to Euth Marshmallow after what happened with her and the other dog, but I thought the same thing Debbie did, if she wanted to hurt him (esp. considering it was his hand-and she could have done SERIOUS damage) then she would have hurt him. And it took serious thinking before we decided to fight her Euth with the courts. And, BTW, the 2 year old Pit bit 2 more people in the process of being quarantined. I'm not sure what got in to her. We have a feeling her personality changed because her "daddy" was in and out of her life because he was deployed to Iraq. But then, there's always that 2 year mark that everyone is always talking about...
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Postby cheekymunkee » December 8th, 2006, 5:17 pm

On December 08 2006, 12:24 PM, Karen wrote:Plus when there is a child involved you always have to be extra careful. I think people are far too eager to throw out the "human aggression = euthanasia" card. Most times it's just a problem with temperment (dominance, fear, etc) and/or training, it's NOT a truly HA dog.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sorry I don't buy it. At this point in time ANY pit bull that bites or makes a serious attempt to needs to be put down. The coddling and making excuses for the dogs rescues or not is getting out of hand. Improper temperment be it redirected aggression, shy, fearful, what have you is just that, IMPROPER. We are dealing with a UKC judge who made all the excuses you guys are and her dog BIT a person at a show. The dog is barred from UKC and the breeder/judge is going to try and get her reinstated. Unacceptable.


I agree, that IS unacceptable. But the poster is/was not going to be dragging this dog to shows & breeding it. And she stated the pup was 7 months old, perfect time for a dog to start acting like a brat & "telling" a child "you're not the boss of me". With just what this poster has said, we cannot even beging to understand where the dog was coming from or what was going on when the dog got snippy. Was it true HA? Was the dog being a brat? No way to tell at this point.
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Postby Karen » December 8th, 2006, 5:27 pm

I agree, that IS unacceptable. But the poster is/was not going to be dragging this dog to shows & breeding it. And she stated the pup was 7 months old, perfect time for a dog to start acting like a brat & "telling" a child "you're not the boss of me". With just what this poster has said, we cannot even beging to understand where the dog was coming from or what was going on when the dog got snippy. Was it true HA? Was the dog being a brat? No way to tell at this point.
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No Sis was making excuses for all the other unacceptable behavior traits that need to be dealt with in a final manner. A brat puppy is just that a brat. Leadership is needed however if the dog is still biting etc. after training what then?

As to the breeder/judge, I broke down and called them. I feel that the speculation going on isn't truthful and the dog will be pts on Monday. HOWEVER the bite was a scratch and ripped sweat pants no blood and no bruising. I told the breeder IF she spayed the dog and kept her home I wouldn't have an issue with it. And I don't. Taking the dog out and breeding it later? Yeah I would have a huge deal with it problem.
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Postby cheekymunkee » December 8th, 2006, 5:35 pm

As to the breeder/judge, I broke down and called them. I feel that the speculation going on isn't truthful and the dog will be pts on Monday. HOWEVER the bite was a scratch and ripped sweat pants no blood and no bruising. I told the breeder IF she spayed the dog and kept her home I wouldn't have an issue with it. And I don't. Taking the dog out and breeding it later? Yeah I would have a huge deal with it problem


I agree. If you can handle an "off" dog & keep it from the public more power to you. I know people that do it and do it successfully. Responsiblity at it's finest! It is when they not kept safe & are paraded all over as a representative of the breed that the problems come in.

I can't believe you called her! :wink:
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Postby Karen » December 8th, 2006, 5:38 pm

Oh be quiet. I'm still sniffling. Sigh. We used to be friends. Sort of. Kind of. Well whatever. I still think some serious denutting and uerus removals need to be done there but that's neither here nor there.
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Postby cheekymunkee » December 8th, 2006, 6:03 pm

:backRoll:
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Postby brooksybrooks1 » December 10th, 2006, 1:51 am

i don't think that any dog that bites should be put down. i think that a human aggressive pitbull is a defective pitbull, but rehabilitation methods are available and in a lot of cases effective. i guess a lot of it depends on the owner, and it seems like the second bite/hand scratching incident was more of a mob mentality thing. a good dog around a bad dog can act out of whack.
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Postby Karen » December 10th, 2006, 10:05 am

On December 10 2006, brooksybrooks1 wrote:i don't think that any dog that bites should be put down. i think that a human aggressive pitbull is a defective pitbull, but rehabilitation methods are available and in a lot of cases effective. i guess a lot of it depends on the owner, and it seems like the second bite/hand scratching incident was more of a mob mentality thing. a good dog around a bad dog can act out of whack.


Sorry I don't agree. There are no guarantees in life other than death and taxes, I love Meet Joe Black, so you can not guarantee a dog that has bit will never bite again. Are you ready to lose everything and wind up in jail because your dog bit then bit again? Your feelings on pit bulls and biting are why we are in such dire straights on the whole. Good sound dogs are killed left and right while iffy fearful ones are alive. That's got to change.
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Postby mnp13 » December 10th, 2006, 7:09 pm

On December 10 2006, 00:51, brooksybrooks1 wrote:i don't think that any dog that bites should be put down. i think that a human aggressive pitbull is a defective pitbull, but rehabilitation methods are available and in a lot of cases effective. i guess a lot of it depends on the owner, and it seems like the second bite/hand scratching incident was more of a mob mentality thing. a good dog around a bad dog can act out of whack.


I think it depends on the bite and the overall circumstances. A "bite" breaks skin and causes damage, from minor to severe. Snapping is a warning, be it "you're not the boss of me", "take a hike" or "please leave me alone". A "snap" is a missed bite - and usually missed because the dogswants to miss.

A dog that attacks is a different story.

If you were uncomfortable with the dog then giveing it back to the breeder was the absolute right thing to do.
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Postby brooksybrooks1 » December 11th, 2006, 11:26 am

i disagree. i think you're being too black and white. i work with 30 dogs a day at least, and i just had 2 dogs come in that had been put through absolute h*ll because they were sitting outside by a schoolbus to say hi to the kids as they kid off and one kid hauled off and kicked one, the dog defended itself by biting the kid, and i think rightly so, but only got his jeans. the mother took the kid to the doctor just to say she did, he didn't even bread skin, and then proceeded to press charges. both dogs were seized and threatened to be put to sleep, even though the one didn't do anything and there were witnesses to say the dog was kicked. the only reason they are alive is because we trained them and wrote a letter to the courts testifying to a good temperament. i think a human aggressive pitbull is a defective pitbull, with reference to breed standard, and should be put down, but i also don't think that there is a necessary connection between dead mean pitbulls and dead nice pitbulls. education is the answer to good dogs getting put down, not more bad ones being let roam. there will always be a couple of dogs that ruin it for everyone, regardless of the breed, it's societies reaction that causes bsl. it used to be rotweilers and dobermans, now it's pitbulls, there's no rhyme or reason to it. it's not my attitude that causes the problem, i think you should think a little more critically to find the answer to the problem.
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Postby brooksybrooks1 » December 11th, 2006, 11:28 am

typos!: kids get off the bus, didn't break skin, not bread it!
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Postby brooksybrooks1 » December 11th, 2006, 11:03 pm

i disagree with karen that is, not michelle
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Postby Phebes » January 2nd, 2007, 8:32 pm

She had been caged with a 6 month old deaf dog since she was born, and had little to no human interaction (dogs sleep, potty, and eat in their cages at her house).

The dogs live like this and you or your husband haven't turned this woman in to animal control??????????????
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Postby mnp13 » January 2nd, 2007, 8:36 pm

If the crates are clean if/when an ACI comes to the home, I don't think there is anything they can do. There are no laws against crating 24/7
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Postby katiek0417 » January 4th, 2007, 9:19 am

On January 02 2007, 7:36 PM, mnp13 wrote:If the crates are clean if/when an ACI comes to the home, I don't think there is anything they can do. There are no laws against crating 24/7


Good point, Michelle. If you have a license to have a number of dogs on the premises, and they are kept clean, are healthy, etc, then ACI won't do anything....
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Postby KaylasMomJenn » January 5th, 2007, 10:10 pm

I am sorry for not replying sooner.
I called the SPCA on her last year and the Director told me that there is no limit to the amount of dogs you can keep in your house (We live in Niagara County, NY if you want to look up the laws here) but that he would send someone out to her house anyway just to check it out.
The other way she gets away with it is by keeping a majority of them in the basement, so it appears as though she only has the few dogs upstairs in the living area.
When CPS was called on her (this is NOT MY family, lol) she put bark collars on the loud dogs and moved the other dogs into the garage so they didn't see all her dogs.
You wouldn't imagine the stench in this ladies house. Its horrible. But when her dogs are sick or need vet attention, she is right on top of it. I never said I agreed with what she was doing. I tried as hard as I could to get her to give some up for adoption (When I was dealing with SPBR) but she is a hoarder. She takes in any dog that someone dumps on her and it is too much for her to handle.
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