Training the heel without forging

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Postby mnp13 » October 19th, 2006, 7:30 pm

I've been working on Riggs' heel, but he tends to forge unless I am looking at him. He kind of "rubber bands" forge, get back, forge, get back. He never lags though! I'd rather have a forge than a lag, but I"d really prefer neither! Unless we are making eye contact he doesn't do a consistant attention heel either.

Any suggestions?
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Postby Malli » October 20th, 2006, 7:20 am

ahem... what is the definition of forge? walking past/in front or forward to the invisible spot that is paralell to the handler?
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Postby mnp13 » October 20th, 2006, 8:52 am

A "correct" heel as, I understand it, is the dog's shoulder at the same plane as your hip.
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Postby Malli » October 20th, 2006, 12:32 pm

right, or shoulder to knee....


what is "forging?"
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Postby mnp13 » October 20th, 2006, 12:52 pm

On October 20 2006, 12:32, Malli wrote:right, or shoulder to knee....


what is "forging?"


but knees move when you walk.

Forging when they move ahead of the hip, lagging is when they hang back
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Postby Big_Ant » October 20th, 2006, 2:31 pm

Is he forging just to get going, or forging the entire time?

Does he stop when you stop?

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Postby mnp13 » October 20th, 2006, 3:10 pm

He forges less when I walk faster, but he still forges. I have to correct, correct, correct, correct... I've used a "heeling stick" and he's gotten better but old habits die hard.

He stops when I stop every time, but he is still ahead of me. He usually back up and sits where he's supposed to sit.
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Postby Big_Ant » October 20th, 2006, 3:47 pm

On 10/20/2006 11:10 AM, mnp13 wrote:He forges less when I walk faster, but he still forges. I have to correct, correct, correct, correct... I've used a "heeling stick" and he's gotten better but old habits die hard.

He stops when I stop every time, but he is still ahead of me. He usually back up and sits where he's supposed to sit.


Are you using a traffic lead or standard lead (4' or 6'?)?

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Postby Marinepits » October 20th, 2006, 4:44 pm

What's a "heeling stick" and how is it used? :?
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Postby Big_Ant » October 20th, 2006, 4:48 pm

On 10/20/2006 12:44 PM, Marinepits wrote:What's a "heeling stick" and how is it used? :?


Repeat after me: GOOGLE IS YOUR FRIEND!

http://www.clickandtreat.com/stikpage.htm

I did a quick Google and found that article from Gary Wilkes, I think I heard his named mentioned after the Bullympics.

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Postby Marinepits » October 20th, 2006, 4:49 pm

Oh, bugger off, you! :lol3:

I like Michelle's no-nonsense explanations.
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Postby Big_Ant » October 20th, 2006, 4:53 pm

On 10/20/2006 12:49 PM, Marinepits wrote:Oh, bugger off, you! :lol3:

I like Michelle's no-nonsense explanations.


I have no-nonsense too, it's called FOLLOW THE LINK!! :twisted:

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Postby Marinepits » October 20th, 2006, 5:00 pm

I'm gonna spank you with the heeling stick! :thbbbbt:
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Postby Big_Ant » October 20th, 2006, 5:01 pm

On 10/20/2006 1:00 PM, Marinepits wrote:I'm gonna spank you with the heeling stick! :thbbbbt:


Do you think that's a threat? Shit! I might like it! LMAO!

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Postby pocketpit » October 20th, 2006, 7:21 pm

He needs to be weaned off the direct eye contact yet still understand that heeling requires attention. I'd go back to basics with him at a standstill and try weaning off the direct eye contact first.
Sometimes this is better accomplished from the "stand"position rather than sit as that's the position required for heeling. However with already started dogs that have had "sit" ingrained so much, it may be difficult to do from a "stand".
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Postby DemoDick » October 20th, 2006, 8:28 pm

A heeling stick and a target stick are not the same thing.

The heeling stick is a small diameter stick that the handler carries to deliver a correction to the forging dog's chest. Used properly, it corrects the forge by inducing the dog to move rearward into proper position.

Connor is a forger too, and the method I've come to use is to "propeller" the leash counterclockwise in front of us so that when he forges he gets smacked (repeatedly) in the chin. This causes him to simultaneously look up and fall back into position. He very quickly learned that he can turn the "propeller" off by staying in position and watching me.

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Postby mnp13 » October 20th, 2006, 9:45 pm

On October 20 2006, 16:49, Marinepits wrote:Oh, bugger off, you! :lol3:

I like Michelle's no-nonsense explanations.


lol

Anthony, I can see how you made the mistake... but that's not it.

http://www.gundogsupply.com/avhest.html

I use my Sch whip, and just hold on to the end of it, so I just use the stick part.

PocketPit - thanks, I will definately try that. I'll have to do it with a mirror or a spotter.
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Postby Malli » October 21st, 2006, 1:14 am

Oscar forges really badly too, he'll always sit on the stop, but sometimes its like a foot ahead of me :lol3:

:backRoll:

"the propeller"
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Postby Big_Ant » October 21st, 2006, 7:10 pm

Thanks Demo for correcting me. I've not used either, so I just did a google search and linked to what I thought was it. It was more so I could be a smartass in my replies :twisted:

One method I've used, and although I'm probably going to look like the 'bad guy' with always making these types of suggestions, but they are alternatives to what is offered. I have used some of the methods here as well (not just on this topic) but I have other 'alternatives' that I've used with success.

I have trained the heel with a very short traffic lead. What I so is basically measure out the parameters for me to hold the lead, and if the dog forges, they would basically put themselves into a hanging choke. It takes a little thought and strength to get it all working properly, but once it is set to go, the dog usually picks up quickly. You hold the lead, and they are in a perfect heel, but if they forge ahead without you, so long as you are holding the lead properly, the dog will put themselves into a choke, and then it becomes a decision of "choke myself or move back to the spot that didn't choke me".

Most dogs will comply quickly.

If anyone needs clarification/elaboration, please let me know.

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Postby Pitcrew » October 24th, 2006, 10:40 pm

When I see you here for training next... I am going to take your damn leash (and stick) away from you, and teach you to communicate with your dog, and teach him what you want. You are using all of these tools to put him where you want him... he's letting you do it for him. Its easier for him than trying to figure it out... your not giving him the right tools and information. Otherwise it's like pushing a car instead of driving it. Lets start your engine. :D
It will also be fun, for you and him. If you dont have a serious improvement fairly quickly, I will be suprised. I will also think you are cheating, and not doing your homework properly. :wink:
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