Bones

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Postby Marco » September 28th, 2006, 1:39 pm

Well as Ive said in my introduction Bones is my pup he is about 8 months and he is real mouthy. When I first got him he was sick, he had KC and worms.

Well as he got better I realized that he is a really high energy dog. And he constantly would nip and jump up on you, I thought nothing of it and just figured it was a young puppy thing, and taught him a few basic commands(ie, sit, lay down, shake, off, and stay). But even with the "off" command he would not listen most of the time, it would only work on occasion.

As he got older his niping and jumping got a lot rougher and now he weighs approx. 70 lbs so its a lot worse than having a 15 lbs pup jumping on you. It also has seemed to become more frequent. About a month or two ago I purchased him a prong collar, and it helps in some situations, especially walking, but it still does not solve his jumping and biting problems, he just ignores me jerking it when he jumps on me or someone else.

Now on monday, he got really out of control and while I was at school my mom was walking him out back and after talking to her she said that she was playing fetch with him also, and he got really out of control and started running laps around the yard and then jumped up on her and started biting her, except pretty hard and wouldnt stop, but after talking with her more thoroughly she said that is did NOT seem to be aggresive, but rather play time getting out of control.(many times you do not even have to play with him to get hyper and do this though)

He never growled or bit her as hard as he could, which I believe if he had intent of doing harm he could of easily done it. Later that day he was taken to Pinellas County Animal Services for aggression, which is where we originally got him at 13 weeks. He was then put in quarintine, because of possible diseases he may have because of the attack(he has all of his shots, and doesnt have any diseases but this is standard procedure)

At the end of his 10 day quarintine he would more than likely be put to sleep because of HA. But the next day I was talking to some people and described to them his behaviors in depth and some said it did not sound aggresive, I was really releaved actually, so I quickly went back and picked him up.

He will still have to finish his quarintine here though, btw, they did a "great" job of quarintining him, he now has KC, and horrible diarehha. But the purpose of this post is to see if anyone could give some training tips and also recommend me to a behaviorist for evaluation of Bones in Clearwater Florida(about 20 minutes away from Tampa.) Thank you much for any help.


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Postby cheekymunkee » September 28th, 2006, 1:47 pm

I'm not a trainer ( but we do have several on the board that are wonderful) but I do want to wish you the best of luck with Bones & I hope you two can get the help you seek. He does sound like a bratty boy though. Have you tried NILF with him?
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Postby Marinepits » September 28th, 2006, 1:49 pm

Bones sounds a lot like my "problem child", Mac. He's an 80 pound mastiff/amstaff mix with high energy and he also has issues with respecting other dogs' (and people's) space/bodies.

Thanks to some very sound advice from some friends of mine, we started using NILIF on Mac and he's become a much more well-behaved dog.

NILIF is "Nothing In Life Is Free" and means that Mac gets NOTHING (food, water, walks, etc.) without either behaving properly or doing something that I ask, such as sit quietly and wait for a drink and then I say OK after a certain amount of time.

Let me find some links for you.....
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Postby Marco » September 28th, 2006, 1:51 pm

Yep I forgot to add that I do use NILIF on Bones, and it helps but still doesnt stop his jumping/biting issues.
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Postby Marinepits » September 28th, 2006, 1:52 pm

NILIF

http://www.k9deb.com/nilif.htm

http://www.goof.com/~pmurphy/NILIF.html

Here's a Yahoo group with really good info about aggressive dogs:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/agbeh/
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Postby mnp13 » September 28th, 2006, 1:54 pm

We have a very experienced trainer who is a member in Florida, and I will try to reach him so he can post here.

Personally, I don't put much stock in "behaviorists" as many of them have little to no training experience. You already know he has bad behavior! That's not to say that none of them have training knowledge, but make sure you get and check their credentials. In my opinion, if they aren't qualified to give you solid training advice / help then you are wasting your money.

How old is the dog now? Is he neutered? Dog aggressive? Have you taken obedience classes with him? What commands (if any) does he do reliably (95% of the time)? Have any of his "nips" broken skin? Is he food aggressive or have any resource guarding issues?

the diarrhea is probably from the food and the stress. There is a thread in the health section on how to help get rid of it.
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Postby Marinepits » September 28th, 2006, 2:00 pm

On Thu, Sep 28 2006, 1:51 PM, Marco wrote:Yep I forgot to add that I do use NILIF on Bones, and it helps but still doesnt stop his jumping/biting issues.


Well, this may not be a popular way to deal with the biting issues, but every time Mac would be inappropriately mouthy with me, I'd grab his tongue and not let go until he calmed down. I've also pinched his lips. He's stopped being mouthy with me.

As far as the jumping goes, Mac has gotten better, but still jumps. I'm pretty small and he's almost as big as I am so the jumping is a BIG issue. He has a heavy collar on at all times and when he jumps on me, I grab the collar and yank him back down to all fours while telling him "NO". He also gets no attention from me until those four feet stay on the ground, then he gets treats and lots of love.

Mac also reacts well to me putting my knee into his chest (otherwise ignoring him) when he jumps. I don't do it to hurt him, but rather to push him away.

Using a very deep and commanding voice (The Voice of God) while issuing corrections also helps.
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Postby SisMorphine » September 28th, 2006, 2:58 pm

Your puppy should be onleash whenever he isn't crated. Depending on who you talk to, some trainers would say to always have him at one end and you at the other until he learns his manners and respect, and earns your trust, others would say that he should be dragging the leash so you can stand on it when he tries to jump, or you're able to grab the leash and correct a bad behavior. Whoever you speak with I highly doubt you'll find anyone who doesn't think he needs to be attached to a leash in one way or another.

And what do you do when he starts his nipping and biting? How do you correct that?
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Postby Marco » September 28th, 2006, 3:00 pm

On September 28 2006, mnp13 wrote:How old is the dog now? Is he neutered? Dog aggressive? Have you taken obedience classes with him? What commands (if any) does he do reliably (95% of the time)? Have any of his "nips" broken skin? Is he food aggressive or have any resource guarding issues?


+Hes about 8 months maybe 9, I'll check his papers.
+Hes neutered
+Hes not dog aggressive
+Havent taken classes w/ him yet
+As for commands about 95% of the time, he knows sit, shake, and laydown.
+He has broken the skin twice maybe three times(not badly, but a little bit)
+And he doesnt guard anything, you could eat his food, chew his toys, or even walk in his kennel and he would be fine with it lol
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Postby Marco » September 28th, 2006, 3:04 pm

On September 28 2006, SisMorphine wrote:Yeah the only time he is off the leash is when he is in his kennel.

And what do you do when he starts his nipping and biting? How do you correct that?


Usually I give him a light hit to the chest with my knee along with a jerk of the leash(attached to the prong collar) to get him off, and then say off and if he listens to that command, then I'll tell him to sit.
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Postby babyreba » September 28th, 2006, 3:09 pm

Marco, I don't know Bones or you, so I couldn't say for certain how serious the problem is you are dealing with . . . but this age is particularly difficult with pups, and you can read about my battles with Tucker here:

http://www.pitbulltalk.com/viewtopic.php?p=59934&highlight=#59934

One from PBF:

http://www.pitbullforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=48302&highlight=tucker+jerk

And another:

http://www.pitbullforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=41231&highlight=tucker+problems

We've actually resolved the problem (I think) and I did find that getting physical with him only got him more excited, so I had to teach myself to become Zen PuppyMaster to keep myself from getting angry with him or from trying to catch the little monster when he went into Dumbass Mode.

If you read my post and see similarities between what I described and what you're experiencing, I can share some of the things I did with you . . . maybe they'd help.
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Postby Marco » September 28th, 2006, 3:16 pm

So far, the best method of getting him to calm down is getting him tired out on the treadmill..
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Postby mnp13 » September 28th, 2006, 3:53 pm

On September 28 2006, 15:16, Marco wrote:So far, the best method of getting him to calm down is getting him tired out on the treadmill..


That leads me to believe that he is FAR under exercised. How far does he usually run in a session?

Usually I give him a light hit to the chest with my knee along with a jerk of the leash(attached to the prong collar) to get him off, and then say off and if he listens to that command, then I'll tell him to sit.

That's two corrections before he gets a command and then another command.

I would suggest a firm "No" and then a solid knee to the chest. If you keep giving him little love taps he's going to keep ignoring you. When he has four feet back on the floor, tell him "good" and give him his reward. Right now, you are punishing him for jumping, but not rewarding him for getting down. And ending things with sit confuses the issue even more.
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Postby Marco » September 28th, 2006, 4:00 pm

On September 28 2006, mnp13 wrote:
On September 28 2006, 15:16, Marco wrote:So far, the best method of getting him to calm down is getting him tired out on the treadmill..


That leads me to believe that he is FAR under exercised. How far does he usually run in a session?


For the most part I RUN him 30 minutes at a time. Usually anywhere from 3-5 times a day.

BTW I have only had the treadmill for about a month and before that I biked with him for about an hour a day and then played fetch.
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Postby katiek0417 » September 28th, 2006, 4:18 pm

Have you thought about getting him into flyball or agility training? He might do better if he had a "job."
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Postby Marco » September 28th, 2006, 4:38 pm

elaborate on the agility training a little please...
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Postby mnp13 » September 28th, 2006, 4:40 pm

Agility is a dog sport, but is WAY beyond what you can do right now. You need to get the dog under control in your home before you can bring him to a class where he will be off leash.
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Postby katiek0417 » September 28th, 2006, 4:46 pm

On September 28 2006, 3:40 PM, mnp13 wrote:Agility is a dog sport, but is WAY beyond what you can do right now. You need to get the dog under control in your home before you can bring him to a class where he will be off leash.


I've gone to several places where you teach the dog to do A-frames and jumps while the dog is on leash...you teach it using food...so the dog has to be on leash...most of the places around here start the dogs as puppies while they have little fear....
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Postby mnp13 » September 28th, 2006, 4:54 pm

I agree, but this dog is currently jumping on people, nipping to the point of breaking skin, doesn't listen to basic commands and sounds like it is generally out of control.

I totally agree a sport like agility would be great for him, just not until the dog has some measure of respect for the handler. At 70 pounds he's learned to throw his weight around and needs some serious manners!
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Postby katiek0417 » September 28th, 2006, 5:57 pm

On September 28 2006, 3:54 PM, mnp13 wrote:I agree, but this dog is currently jumping on people, nipping to the point of breaking skin, doesn't listen to basic commands and sounds like it is generally out of control.

I totally agree a sport like agility would be great for him, just not until the dog has some measure of respect for the handler. At 70 pounds he's learned to throw his weight around and needs some serious manners!


but sometimes you teach the dog respect when you get into these things...Sacha never respected me until I started doing bitework with her (ironically)...she used to bite me all the time, jump on me, etc....she broke skin on more than one occasion (and would even bite my face)...
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