Bait and Switch

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Postby cheekymunkee » August 8th, 2006, 4:09 pm

Well, if she would feed the poor thing he wouldn't be trying to eat the ball.
There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.

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Postby cheekymunkee » August 8th, 2006, 4:10 pm

Marinepits wrote:Nope, a Gentle Leader works better.


Even better if you add a choke chain along with the GL
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Postby cheekymunkee » August 8th, 2006, 4:56 pm

Notice how she is ignoring this thread now? ppfffttt
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Postby a-bull » August 8th, 2006, 5:33 pm

Can't teach an old dog new tricks . . . :wink:
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Postby mnp13 » August 8th, 2006, 10:51 pm

notice how I was out to dinner with a friend gorging myself on sushi?

Riggs had two turkey legs last week - that's 2 pounds of meat. That covers his food needs for at least 3 weeks. sheesh... what do you want me to do? Make him obese?

:rolleyes2:

lol
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Postby a-bull » August 8th, 2006, 11:00 pm

Notice how we were having all sorts of fun at your expense while you were out gorging yourself on sushi? :wink:
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Postby Jenn » August 9th, 2006, 12:15 am

a-bull wrote:Notice how we were having all sorts of fun at your expense while you were out gorging yourself on sushi? :wink:


lol
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Postby julie k » August 9th, 2006, 12:20 am

mnp13 wrote:I spent an hour both Saturday and Sunday working on fetch with Riggs. His out leaves a lot to be desired, but I got him to the point where he was spitting out one ball so that I would throw the other.

What's the next step and how do I bridge it to him spitting out the ball without another as bait? And, of course, when does the command get added in?


Here's a different approach.
Identify their mouth. Ask them for both mouth open and mouth closed. Identify both behaviors. Bridge/reinforce/praise both.
Use a non prey item like a butter knife or a big metal spoon. Ask for mouth open, then mouth closed on knife. Kayce suggested to me I identify bridge of nose with my puppy so I could help her close her mouth, but your dog is already retrieving, so your shouldn't need to do this. Ask for mouth open, take the knife, bridge/reinforce/praise.
Do this with a bunch of different textures and non prey items; a drinking straw, a piece of paper, a piece of fabric, etc.
By the time you have all these, you should have mouth open for the sleeve or ball. If you don't, you can either disengage or use a correction.

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Postby julie k » August 9th, 2006, 12:22 am

A PS
My correction would be a very quiet collar lift (not a jerk) until they spit, but that's just me.

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Postby rockermom » August 9th, 2006, 8:13 am

Rocky gets the ball but wants to run away and chew it up. If I have a treat and he knows it, brings it and drops it. If he wont give up the toy I grab his collar tight no jerk and say drop. My problem is just getting him to retrieve without showing him I have meatballs or cheese. He can be no fun to play with cause its always chase chase chase. Like I could keep up with him.
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Postby mnp13 » August 9th, 2006, 10:44 am

julie k wrote:Here's a different approach.
Identify their mouth. Ask them for both mouth open and mouth closed. Identify both behaviors. Bridge/reinforce/praise both.


uh.... how do I do this?

oh, and his correction for not letting go is a calm collar lift and then I just wait until he decides he'd rather give the toy up.

We had about 50% success on Monday at training, I only had to lift him a few times. He really hates his new collar as it is much narrower than the other one but he is getting the point much faster now.
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Postby julie k » August 9th, 2006, 12:07 pm

Michelle wrote:

"uh.... how do I do this?

oh, and his correction for not letting go is a calm collar lift and then I just wait until he decides he'd rather give the toy up.

We had about 50% success on Monday at training, I only had to lift him a few times. He really hates his new collar as it is much narrower than the other one but he is getting the point much faster now."

Michelle,

It's a part of Bridge and Target training. Identifying and naming body parts is the basis of language for the animals. Once they understand this, they are very willing to learn more and comply, even to the point of offering a body part for something unpleasant, like injections or nail grinding.
Simply, you name it and touch it, bridge/reinforce/praise, add duration---you can keep on touching that body part---put it to work---example: mouth open, mouth closed, mouth on finger. For mouth open I put all my fingers together and then open them; then of course, they're going to close their mouth, so you tell them what that is.

There is a ton of information on Kayce Cover's website, Synalia, including how to introduce and use terminal and intermediate bridges, the latter is invaluable in teaching duration. One of the best aspects of B&T to me is that it can fit right into your training bag, and Kayce is not judgemental or critical like some of the PP trainer gurus. She's not specifically a dog trainer, but she doesn't need to be, she can work lions and tigers and bears---and even rhinos.

Last night we went to Petco and George Bailey learned to push the shopping cart. Now I know there are lots of dogs who can do this, but this was insanely simple as I just asked him to put his feet up on the shopping cart (while I was holding it so it wouldn't scoot away), then asked him to push it, being careful to keep the cart going straight and slow to start out.
By the time we were ready to leave, he was grinning and pushing like an old pro, even pushed it up to the check out counter.

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Postby mnp13 » August 9th, 2006, 12:24 pm

hmmmmm interesting concept.
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Postby a-bull » August 9th, 2006, 12:30 pm

. . . the hip bone's connected to the, thigh bone . . .

:D
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Postby Magnolia618 » August 9th, 2006, 1:41 pm

notice how I was out to dinner with a friend gorging myself on sushi?


so... you're out gorging yourself on Sushi while your starving dog sits at home alone? That is cold Michelle...
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Postby mnp13 » August 9th, 2006, 1:44 pm

Magnolia618 wrote:
notice how I was out to dinner with a friend gorging myself on sushi?


so... you're out gorging yourself on Sushi while your starving dog sits at home alone? That is cold Michelle...


oh well, he lived through it.
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Postby a-bull » August 9th, 2006, 2:08 pm

You're a sushi fan, eh?

Everyone tells me it tastes like the best filet mignon you've ever eaten---melts in your mouth . . . true?? :|
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Postby mnp13 » August 9th, 2006, 2:13 pm

a-bull wrote:You're a sushi fan, eh?

Everyone tells me it tastes like the best filet mignon you've ever eaten---melts in your mouth . . . true?? :|


I looooove it. Different fish have different flavors and textures but yes, most of them melt in your mouth.

You have to be careful when you go, but when you find a good place stick to it. Find out their delivery days and go on those days only. Even the best places can't have deliveries every day, and though second day fish isn't bad there is a difference.

Avoid Uni (sea urchin) like the plague.
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Postby a-bull » August 9th, 2006, 2:29 pm

hmmmm . . . I love grilled yellow-fin, but I just can't psychologically get past the raw bluefin . . . :(
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Postby Pitcrew » August 10th, 2006, 12:08 am

Michelle... these guys are right. All of them in different ways... I would take ALL of their advice! :clap:
Like this...
1. teach him to "take it" and "out", reliably (100%) with low/non drive items, something he does not connect with any drive (chase) behavior, something completely neutral (old cup, dumbell, spoon, etc), better yet, something he doesn't even want.
Use a HIGH value food reward. Something he REALLY likes so he will be more focused on the food than the object. (so you don't create a similar drivey reaction with a new object) Teach him to take it with marker training. You will identify the correct behavior, gradually shaping it from a touch, to mouthing it, to taking it, each time identifying and rewarding the desired behavior. When you identify the correct behavior, like 'take it', he will drop it to get the treat. you then start having him hold it longer and stop identifying the take or hold, but put your hand under or on the object, present the treat, say out JUST AS he is about to release and identify the release and then reward. Work on this with many different objects, until he will take and release ANYTHING!
2. you should not add throwing and getting a retrieve with any object until you are reliable without the drive. Remember, that is part of distraction training. If he cant do it (anything) when he is calm and focused, he most certainly cant do it when he is all revved up. You have to work up to that.
Teaching a "back up" prior to throwing things is also a good idea. It is asking for space and respect for your ownership of that object before you give it back.
3. I think your biggest problem is that you are too eager to compete with your new "working dog" before you have properly taught him HOW to do what you are asking in a calm focused way (this includes games like fetch)... stress #1... you take him to stimulating environments to ask for behavior he cannot perform reliably in a NON stress environment... get him revved up... and put pressure on him... stress #2, 3, and 4... redirected biting? I cant imagine why :o ...

A common problem I see in all sports, is a trainer encouraging a dog to work in a higher level of drive than they have ability to control. They see the best border collies in agility, the best protection dogs, or field dogs are super drivey... It is not all about drive. If your dog isn't calm enough to focus, and you don't have the control you need, its all a waste. You have a lot of fast, inconsistent behavior. Those awesome dogs have owners that can handle them (thus the term "handler"). You have a lot to learn. Riggs will teach you a lot, but you must teach him first. Prepare him fairly and you will go far.
Please DONT think I didn't learn all of this the HARD way! Just trying to save you, and your dogs a lot of frustration.
I don't ask my dogs, to do anything, in any environment I haven't properly prepared them for. If I am taking them somewhere new, its my priority to teach them in that situation, not test them. A match or schooling trial is not where you train, its where you test your training. I think you dog has trouble trusting what you ask because he has not been properly prepared. It doesn't matter if its agility, protection, taking a walk, or playing fetch. He has a lot of energy that needs to be drained, he needs to be trained, to do LOTS of stuff, thoroughly and reliably, under many distractions (gradually) and environments. You are very strict about how you live with, exercise, feed and control your dog, but not as thorough about training. I know you are eager to do lots of stuff with him... but wait and do the things he can handle, when he is ready. Otherwise you blow his trust and increase his stress and affect his ability to be reliable.

You are encouraging a high energy level, combined with an obsessive behavior, drive, and a lack of control. :shock:
My opinion is that your redirected biting, during fetch or bite work, IS handler error. But not the way you think. He is redirecting his frustration (stress) for the ball, or the helper, toward you... that is a cue to get him working better, and more calmly so he can have more confidence and less conflict with what he thinks he is supposed to do. Its a stress response... triggered under pressure, in drive.
You CAN have TOO MUCH drive stress.
Sparing in boxing or karate is about calm, focussed energy, directed in a very specific way to be efficient. Agression occurs when too much energy and excitement cause agression and frustration. Then you begin to react rather than think your way through your counter respose. You LEARN to react effectively... instinct helps, but cannot be allowed to rule.
Wolf puppies have prey drive, will chase what moves, but if they dont learn to control that drive, they will never be efficient hunters.

If you asked a hyperactive child with ADD who couldn't read very well to do so out loud in front of a class (social stress). He would either rebel against his teacher, peers, or avoid the situation to the best of his ability in this position in the future. Will he be asked to do it again? Yes. Will he do it? Yes. But wouldn't it be so much better to teach him to read first? Then when he is calm, confident, and paying attention, and capable of it, ask him to do it?
He KNOWS how to CHASE a ball, GET the ball, and KEEP the ball. Just start over.
You wouldn't allow him off leash, in a field, with chickens... if he hasn't been taught to listen, come, and ignore the chickens first...
Would you?
Remind me to keep my chickens in when you come over. :D


Sorry for the long post Michelle. Not picking on you. Just had to get MY frustration out.
Lets make plans to train again soon... I will show you what I mean.

Guys... also notice I was encouraging her to use FOOD in her training... Riggs is just thin because she isn't teaching him enough! He is starving for knowledge! :drool:
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