Obedience FAILURE! (She bit the Trainer!!)

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Postby anissa » August 6th, 2006, 1:45 pm

We havent had any unusual problems with her since this incedent.

Right now we're trying to figure out ways to calm her down. She's good inside the house, but she just gets way too excited when she's out. She pulls and wants to jump up on everything and everyone. She's getting better on walks, and we're going to try the gentle leader collar with her, so we'll see how that goes.
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Postby DemoDick » August 6th, 2006, 2:15 pm

we're going to try the gentle leader collar with her, so we'll see how that goes.


Get ready for a trip to the vet. Last weekend at the DSO Cheryl Carlson said it best. Whenever someone recommends the GL or Halti she asks "Why? Do you want to break the dog's neck?"

The best advice I can give here is to get to a qualified trainer. By this I mean someone who has trained and titled multiple dogs in obedience and who is willing to adapt his or her training to the dog in question.

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Postby Romanwild » August 6th, 2006, 2:31 pm

anissa wrote:We havent had any unusual problems with her since this incedent.

Right now we're trying to figure out ways to calm her down. She's good inside the house, but she just gets way too excited when she's out. She pulls and wants to jump up on everything and everyone. She's getting better on walks, and we're going to try the gentle leader collar with her, so we'll see how that goes.




"She pulls and wants to jump up on everything and everyone." O.K. s o we now know you own a pit bull. lol

Seriously, I would love to meet your dog.

I agree with Demo. The GL doesn't click with me. I know that some people have had success with it but nothing about it makes sense to me.

Even if you were to use it I wouldn't use it yet.

Does your dog know these things yet?:
sit
down
stay
come

I know he hasn't "learned" these yet:
heel and loose leash walking
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Postby anissa » August 6th, 2006, 2:32 pm

DemoDick wrote:Get ready for a trip to the vet. Last weekend at the DSO Cheryl Carlson said it best. Whenever someone recommends the GL or Halti she asks "Why? Do you want to break the dog's neck?"


:shock: The Halti (Gentle Leader) has been highly recommended by a few different people. How does everyone else feel about it?



DemoDick wrote:The best advice I can give here is to get to a qualified trainer. By this I mean someone who has trained and titled multiple dogs in obedience and who is willing to adapt his or her training to the dog in question.


Thats the problem! There arent many (if any) qualified trainers in my area. I am hoping to join Charles and the NNY bulldoggers club, but right now I am simply on my own and have to figure out something that'll work for us.
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Postby anissa » August 6th, 2006, 2:37 pm

Romanwild wrote:Does your dog know these things yet?:
sit
down
stay
come

I know he hasn't "learned" these yet:
heel and loose leash walking



Yes.. she knows sit, down, come and stay VERY well. IN the house! We practice NILF, and she listens great. She is starting to catch on to heel, but ONLY when there arent any distractions.

We were in The Shaggy Dog yesterday, and she was all over the place. She wanted to jump up on everything. She scared the living S$#t out of the poor cats in the window. I had her sitting and tried to keep her calm, but when she's excited, there is no chance of getting through to her.
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Postby SpiritFngrz » August 6th, 2006, 2:44 pm

What about a prong collar or a good sturdy martingale collar?
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Postby a-bull » August 6th, 2006, 3:08 pm

DemoDick wrote:
we're going to try the gentle leader collar with her, so we'll see how that goes.


Get ready for a trip to the vet. Last weekend at the DSO Cheryl Carlson said it best. Whenever someone recommends the GL or Halti she asks "Why? Do you want to break the dog's neck?"

The best advice I can give here is to get to a qualified trainer. By this I mean someone who has trained and titled multiple dogs in obedience and who is willing to adapt his or her training to the dog in question.

Demo Dick


I've "heard" of people who've had success with them, but I've never actually seen any.

It's an odd concept---good for horses, never made much sense to me on dogs.

Finding an adaptable trainer is very good advice.
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Postby Magnolia618 » August 6th, 2006, 3:08 pm

anissa wrote:
DemoDick wrote:Get ready for a trip to the vet. Last weekend at the DSO Cheryl Carlson said it best. Whenever someone recommends the GL or Halti she asks "Why? Do you want to break the dog's neck?"


:shock: The Halti (Gentle Leader) has been highly recommended by a few different people. How does everyone else feel about it?


I agree with Demo. They are designed from HORSE halters. Look at how strong a horse's neck is compaired to a dogs'. If I dog decides to go apeshit and chase after a squirrel... it could do serious damage to their neck. Thats not even to mention the fact that head collars are pure-dominance and they control rather than train.

A prong is not a bad idea, though...
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Postby msvette2u » August 6th, 2006, 3:53 pm

The Halti (Gentle Leader) has been highly recommended by a few different people. How does everyone else feel about it?


They are for wimpy bleeding heart trainers who can't stand the sight of a "cruel" prong collar. It's a piece of crap, IMO. If you go in Petsmart they'll try to sell you these idiotic things. Every dog I've ever seen on one is NOT under control but looks and walks all over the place!
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Postby Romanwild » August 6th, 2006, 3:55 pm

Thats the problem! There arent many (if any) qualified trainers in my area.


I told you I do know of a good trainer, maybe even two that could help you in this area.

What did Wendy tell you at the Shaggy Dog? She's a member and, even though she doesn't put herself out as one, is a pretty good trainer.

Yes.. she knows sit, down, come and stay VERY well. IN the house! We practice NILF, and she listens great. She is starting to catch on to heel, but ONLY when there arent any distractions.


Once you have taught them in a distraction free enviroment you need to start doing it in different places then. Dogs don't generalize. You have to teach them in all kinds of settings gradually increasing the distractions. Let them be successful. Make sure they know it cold before introducing distractions.

I am hoping to join Charles and the NNY bulldoggers club, but right now I am simply on my own and have to figure out something that'll work for us.


What's hope got to do with it? You have my number. I probably live within 10 minutes from you. :?
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Postby anissa » August 6th, 2006, 4:08 pm

Romanwild wrote:I told you I do know of a good trainer, maybe even two that could help you in this area.


I must have missed this.

Romanwild wrote:What did Wendy tell you at the Shaggy Dog? She's a member and, even though she doesn't put herself out as one, is a pretty good trainer.


Well.. we went in to buy a prong collar for Charlie. She asked if we were getting one for both dogs, and I told her that I had someone sending out a Halti to try. She just said OK and we went on our way.


What's hope got to do with it? You have my number. I probably live within 10 minutes from you. :?


Ok. OK. I DO plan on joining :P

I do have your number, and will be using it soon. Things are alittle crazy around here, preparing for my husband to deploy next week. Once he's gone and things have settled down, Id really like it if you could come hang out with the dogs and I.
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Postby msvette2u » August 6th, 2006, 4:09 pm

Thats the problem! There arent many (if any) qualified trainers in my area. I am hoping to join Charles and the NNY bulldoggers club, but right now I am simply on my own and have to figure out something that'll work for us.

If I were you I'd give Charles a call TODAY and have him come give you pointers. It sounds like you're listening to the wrong kind of people and they are giving you the wrong kind of advice. At least he is an experienced Pit Bull person!
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Postby anissa » August 6th, 2006, 4:11 pm

msvette2u wrote:They are for wimpy bleeding heart trainers who can't stand the sight of a "cruel" prong collar.


I personally have no problem with the prong collar, we just got one for Charlie. We'll have to go back and get one for Jaida too.
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Postby anissa » August 6th, 2006, 4:14 pm

msvette2u wrote:If I were you I'd give Charles a call TODAY and have him come give you pointers. It sounds like you're listening to the wrong kind of people and they are giving you the wrong kind of advice. At least he is an experienced Pit Bull person!


IF I had the time to have him come out for a couple of hours, I WOULD call him today. Despite getting a few minutes here and there to sit at the computer and read this board.. I dont know if you realize how much time preparing for a deployment takes. My husband is leaving for the next 12-18 months.. we have appointments, meetings, briefings etc.. for the next 7 days straight.

Like I said.. I do plan on calling and meeting with Charles, as soon as I can.
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Postby rockermom » August 6th, 2006, 4:54 pm

I am not for or against head halters. I know someone who used it not to train their dog to walk nice but to train the dog to focus on them as a trainer. I had used one on a Dobe who was scared of the world. THis dog had never been walked and was not socialized.She did ok on it. but I returned it after reading the article posted below. I never felt I would hurt her neck. Since if you need to pull their neck that hard you should definately not use it. If you choose to use it you must watch the dvd that comes with it on proper use. It tells you to never pull the dog when not listening. I am not for or against head haltis and or prongs. But I use what is right for me and my dog.
http://www.flyingdogpress.com/headhalters.html
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Postby rockermom » August 6th, 2006, 5:03 pm

This is an important part of the article that I wanted to highlight about head halti's this author is not a fan of them but has used them with sucess. Here she makes a good point that may relate to Anissas current situation.

So
There may be valid reasons for using this equipment - such as an owner who has totally lost control of a dog, and the equipment is being used on a temporary basis as remedial training takes place; such as an aggressive animal where there is a serious need to control the dog's ability to bite (some head halters allow you to tighten the muzzle loop and thus close the mouth.) There may not be any good reason for using this equipment except that it's a popular fad, the quick control gained is often viewed as a suitable substitute for real training and a solid relationship. But the question needs to be asked - and answered honestly: Why am I using this head halter on this dog?

I would suggest that many handlers choose halters because it is easier on them, because they can mechanically control a dog that they otherwise could not (due to a lack of training or relationship problems or both). Any training equipment that is used to substitute for training and a solid, healthy relationship is just a crutch. And every piece of training equipment and all the rewards known to mankind can be used as a crutch, whether it's a buckle collar, a head halter, an electric collar, a frisbee or a pocket full of hot dogs. sometimes crutches are necessary but not as a lifelong solution

above from flyingdogpress.com

(note: edited by Michelle for readability. thanks.)
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Postby mnp13 » August 6th, 2006, 11:05 pm

Kingsgurl wrote: I'm sorry, but in this troubled time for our dogs, they damn well better be able to be walked up on unexpectedly. I'm a little concerned to see the blame being shifted to the trainer and away from the dog. The people you will encounter while out in public with this dog will, in all likelyhood, be far less dog experienced than she was.


I agree and disagree.

This dog was in a bad situation to start. She was nipping at other dogs, and most likely was feeding off of Anissa's tenseness.

No trainer worth a dime would just walk up to a dog who is obviously on edge and just suddenly "acknowlege" her. Then, to complicate matters, the trainer made a big deal out of a nip and reacted to the dog using pure dominance... and banished them to the corner. That is NOT compitent training.

My dog Riggs nipped me three times last weekend at the DSO. Once in the car and twice in the "tie out". All three were 100% my fault. My dog is high drive and I messed up when handling him. I didn't bleed, and it wasn't the end of the world. I have some pretty bruises to remind me that I need to handle my dog correctly.

Your right about people in general being less "experienced" than this trainer was, but frankly, this trainer isn't all that experienced either from the description that Anissa gave of the entire event.
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Postby DemoDick » August 7th, 2006, 1:43 pm

Here are the reasons why I will never put a head halter on any of my dogs.

First and foremost, they are based on a horse halter. Horses are huge in comparison to humans. We need to be able to control their heads in order to move them around. They have thick neck bones and muscles. If a horse decides he's going in a direction you don't want him to you can use the halter to redirect his motion. There is almost zero chance of injuring the horse this way, because if he jerks his head violently in one direction hard enough he's going to move you. Now, what would happen if you put a halter on a horse, tied the halter to a fencepost and got him to run into the end of the rope? The halter would snap his head back violently because he can't move the anchor point at all. He'd likely injure himself.

A dog that lunges against a head halter held by a human is just like the horse lunging against a head halter tied to a fencepost. The dog has zero chance of moving an average-sized person because he is outweighed and out-leveraged. So he's going to snap his head back and risk injury.

I know that many people will say that allowing the dog to slam into the head halter is using it incorrectly. However, when you take your dog on a walk and he sees a squirrel, another dog, friendly stranger he wants to meet, unfriendly stranger he wants to get away from, etc. the dog is not going to be thinking about the device. He's going to be thinking about moving away from or towards the stimulus. If you aren't able to cushion the impact by moving fast enough, the dog is going to get the previously mentioned snap-back effect. This is, of course, assuming that you observed the stimulus before your dog did (and remember how we're outmatched by the canine hearing and olfactory system).

Second, head halters do not allow the handler to teach the dog what behavior is acceptable and what is not. You can't deliver a meaningful and safe correction on a head halter. They do prevent the unwanted behavior, but they do not teach the dog to control himself when the device is not worn. By exerting downward pressure on the muzzle and even pushing the mouth closed you can in fact frustrate the dog further and exacerbate the problem.

Third, head halters look like muzzles. Muzzles imply instability and visciousness. Not good for a breed that already has an unfounded reputation for these traits.

I think the head halter was probably designed by people who genuinely like dogs. I also think that most people who use them are people who feel the same way. They see them as a gentle alternative to using correction methods to teach the dog to behave. However, they are anything but gentle. I'd rather deliver a few well-timed leash pops than risk potentially crippling my dog.

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Last edited by DemoDick on August 7th, 2006, 11:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby mnp13 » August 7th, 2006, 1:49 pm

DemoDick wrote:A dog that lunges against a head halter held by a human is just like the horse lunging against a head halter tied to a fencepost. The dog has zero chance of moving an average-sized person because he is outweighed and out-leveraged. So he's going to snap his head back and risk injury.


I would add that not only is the head going back, but back, up, with a twist, a completely unnatural position for the dog.

This is the post I just put up on another board:
I watched Chris Fraize do an evaluation of a dog who was brought in wearing a Halti. Megan held the leash while Chris spoke to the family. The dog was out of control and kept lunging; and getting her head cranked around by the Halti. I can't imagine the amount of stress that was being put on her neck, and she was easily a 70 pound dog.

The actual evaluation was done on a flat collar, but just watching the dog wrench her neck over and over was enough to make me 1000% sure that I would never put one on my dog or suggest one to any dog owner.
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Postby julie k » August 7th, 2006, 5:07 pm

I haven't seen a head harness yet that doesn't depress the dog. Trainers who use them just seem to say they will get used to them. I have seen them used correctively like a leash for attention, popped into the handler or a treat. The worst example I've ever seen was a dog with permanent scarring on the muzzle, famous trainer advised above method for aggression.

And, I've seen dogs wrestle their way out of them all too often.

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