Obedience FAILURE! (She bit the Trainer!!)

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Postby BigDogBuford » August 1st, 2006, 10:31 pm

What part of the trainer did she nip?
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Postby anissa » August 1st, 2006, 10:33 pm

SpiritFngrz wrote:Is it possible she nipped because the trainer got in the way and Jaida was re-directing at her because she wanted those other dogs? That could be way off, I'm just thinking- I wonder if this would've happened if she wasn't so driven by the other dogs being in the room.


Yes, thats definately a possibility, and the one possibility I am holding onto in hope that it was just a 'freak accident'. Trust me when I say, that I hope it is ANYTHING other than human aggression.

However, Jaida was in a sitting position as the trainer approached, very relaxed and showing no signs of excitement or stress. It just came out of no where!

She bit on her hand/wrist, the trainers arm was around her waist area.
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Postby mnp13 » August 1st, 2006, 10:47 pm

anissa wrote:
mnp13 wrote:How do you know she's "human aggressive"? She jumped up and nipped the trainer who bent over her. She didn't lunge at her snarling and snapping.


I don't know if she is human aggresive. I havent labeled her as so either, so please dont put words in my mouth. I am more concerned that she MIGHT be.. and finding a way to deal with it.. than stamping her as such and getting rid of her.

And you may want to reread what I originally posted.. She DID lunge up at her (feet off the ground), growled and snapped right onto her!


From your first post:
The trainer realized that we were having some problems and came over to speak to us, as soon as she went to acknowledge Jaida.. Jaida lunged up and BIT HER! There wasnt blood, and the trainer took immediate control of her.. but it scared the poop out of me, and Im sure everyone else in that room.


Nothing about growling in that first post.

this is not a problem that can be diagnosed or even helped on a forum. You need to have that dog evaluated by a qualified trainer. The trainer that Jaida nipped didn't deal with the issue past telling you to sit in the corner... so you should probably seek out someone who knows how to deal with things like this.
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Postby BigDogBuford » August 1st, 2006, 10:52 pm

mnp13 wrote:The trainer that Jaida nipped didn't deal with the issue past telling you to sit in the corner... so you should probably seek out someone who knows how to deal with things like this.


I agree with this. Most experienced trainers aren't even fazed by a nip. They're not ususally happy about it, but will certainly give you some behavior modification tequiques, or work a bit more with the dog to see exactly what type of aggression it was and go from there.
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Postby a-bull » August 1st, 2006, 11:33 pm

Imagine the toll it takes on a dog to be in nine different homes.

SisMorphine gave good advice above, and Roman offered some nice assistance. Why not tap into it . . . sounds like you need it.
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Postby anissa » August 2nd, 2006, 12:29 am

I definately 100% agree that I need to find a better trainer. There wasnt any blood, and although it was more aggresive than a nip (from my view/experience) in reassesing the situation.. I do not consider it a bite. Had she REALLY wanted to bite, she would have and we all would have known it.

I know, I know.. why did I make such a big deal about it then? Well, because I was alittle shaken up, and affraid of the worst for my baby. I have to say, we will NOT be returning to that class with Jaida, not due to lack of confidence in her, but in the Trainer. I recognize that the Trainer handled the situation completely wrong. Apart from telling us to go to the corner and basically writing us off.. She shouldn't have yelped out that the dog bit her and made such an ordeal out of it infront of the other owners. It pisses me off, looking back on the situation. If it wasnt for Charlie being a complete angel in class, Id wonder what each and every owner in that room would be thinking of 'pitbulls' because of the way the Trainer reacted.

I have spoken with Shana, the lady who rescued Jaida (Domino) and she has reassured me that there is no bite record on Jaida, and she has been through temperment testing etc. I am going to look at the whole ordeal as my husband put it; a 'freak accident' and work with her on settling her down and gaining better control over her so that we can keep something like this from happening again.

I am definately going to take Charles up on his assistance.

You know.. Jaida didnt fail her obedience class.. she was infact very well behaved for what can be expected of her. She's an excitable, hyper, growling dog.. despite all of that, she sat and went down each and every time I told her to. Im not worried about her nipping at the other dogs, because thats how she plays (even if it was alittle rougher than usual), and as far as 'biting' the trainer.. had the damn trainer had enough sense not to just walk up to a dog unexpectedly, we would have walked out of there proud as hell.

Now with the worry of HA out of the way.. its back to gaining control of this little monster and teaching her some doggie manners.

I really do appreciate all of the comments and concerns.
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » August 2nd, 2006, 7:54 am

As a representative of the rescue that assisted Anissa and Jaida, I feel it necessary to defend us - we NEVER push dogs on people or lie about their behaviors to make them seem better. Anissa can vouch for the fact that we told her straight up that Jaida is dog-aggressive while on leash, plays roughly/loudly, and needs some training. Jaida was juggled from home to home to home during fostering mainly due to rescue politics, which I feel is a sad state of affairs. I handled Jaida at an adopt-a-thon at a very busy zoo all day long, and yeah, she couldn't be around the other dogs, but she wasn't phased at all by kids/people coming running up to her and putting their hands all over her. I think last night happened simply because it was a new environment, Anissa was probably a little tense due to Jaida barking/lunging at the dogs, and that transmitted down the leash so the trainer was just kind of the final straw. I agree with Anissa and everybody else that it's time to find a new trainer.
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Postby Romanwild » August 2nd, 2006, 8:13 am

I'll PM you my number.

I know of some other trainers in the area that might be able to help you. Plus the Bull-ympics is SEPT 1 + 2 + 3!!!! There will be some awesome trainers there that can help including Gary Wilkes and Chris Fraize.

From what I've heard a Doggie Doo isn't that great. For one thing I know someone who put there Pit Bull into their doggie day care and they let them run around in a pack like a dog park. :shock: I don't beleive they are very pit bull savvy.

NNY Bulldoggers does some group training so that owners don't have to deal with Pit Bull Predjudice in training classes. I've experienced my self. I'm a firm beleiver that basic OB should be done at home or with private lessons so you have a base level to work with when you do go into public classes. Personally I only did public classes once then decided I would be better off in a all pit bull class fssor the most part.
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Postby a-bull » August 2nd, 2006, 8:36 am

again, I agree with Roman.

With some pitbulls, it seems the basic obedience should be done with private lessons, and once the dog knows and obeys basic commands, a group setting can be tried---however, it is good advice that it be a class with other pitbulls and a pitbull saavy trainer. At a minimum the other breeds should be compatible with a pitbull and there shouldn't be lots of dogs in any group class you choose.

I have found most trainers do not "get" pitbulls at all. They think they do---they don't

Nice post Pitbullmamaliz~Always good to have background info. What you offered is more than most people get when they adopt a dog from a rescue.
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Postby SisMorphine » August 2nd, 2006, 8:50 am

pitbullmamaliz wrote:As a representative of the rescue that assisted Anissa and Jaida, I feel it necessary to defend us - we NEVER push dogs on people or lie about their behaviors to make them seem better. Anissa can vouch for the fact that we told her straight up that Jaida is dog-aggressive while on leash, plays roughly/loudly, and needs some training. Jaida was juggled from home to home to home during fostering mainly due to rescue politics, which I feel is a sad state of affairs. I handled Jaida at an adopt-a-thon at a very busy zoo all day long, and yeah, she couldn't be around the other dogs, but she wasn't phased at all by kids/people coming running up to her and putting their hands all over her. I think last night happened simply because it was a new environment, Anissa was probably a little tense due to Jaida barking/lunging at the dogs, and that transmitted down the leash so the trainer was just kind of the final straw. I agree with Anissa and everybody else that it's time to find a new trainer.

I just want to clarify that I'm not saying you did. Perhaps the people in the 9 homes weren't truthful, the other rescue, etc. Someone, someplace, isn't giving real info and it's not necessarily the rescue.

There are some rescues out there who don't push dogs. Who are very truthful in placement. I have worked with a few of those . . . but I've also worked with (and not for long) many more who were either not truthful or who didn't have the expertise to understand dog behavior. It's unfortunate, but there's more like that out there than the good ones.
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Postby Big_Ant » August 2nd, 2006, 11:34 am

I won't come here and convolute the advice you've already been given. Charles and Michelle are two of the few people I consider to 'know the business', so you are in good hands, however, one thing that I would like to comment on.

I know the first response to a dog biting is 'it needs to be put down'.. but Im not sure if I can live with that guilt.

Guilt has nothing to do with it. If you own this breed, IMO, you have to be able to do this if necessary. You mention not being able to live with the guilt. I'm not sure I could live with another dog biting someone because of an irresponsible (phrasing, not directed at you) owner.

I have zero tolerance for Human Aggression (again, not diagnosing this as human aggro, far too few details), and would have no problem putting a dog down if it was necessary. It's a 'necessary evil' when owning this breed, IMHO.

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Postby Romanwild » August 2nd, 2006, 11:41 am

That the hard truth. It's not just HA dogs though. I feel terrible this week because I couldn't find a foster home for a dog that attack a calf at the local fair.

He wasn't HA but obviosly AA. Our local shelter was over capacity and had 3 non AG Pit Bulls ready to go. I had three days to get a foster and couldn't find one. They have to put him down because the don't adopt out AG Pit Bulls. What are you going to do. That's the reality. I feel like I stuck the needle in him.
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Postby Big_Ant » August 2nd, 2006, 11:50 am

Romanwild wrote:That the hard truth. It's not just HA dogs though. I feel terrible this week because I couldn't find a foster home for a dog that attack a calf at the local fair.

He wasn't HA but obviosly AA. Our local shelter was over capacity and had 3 non AG Pit Bulls ready to go. I had three days to get a foster and couldn't find one. They have to put him down because the don't adopt out AG Pit Bulls. What are you going to do. That's the reality. I feel like I stuck the needle in him.


That's a totally different situation, however, if that's what needed to be done to put out 3 dogs that were "slightly better" rather than sending an AA Dog to someone who will more than likely would not be able to control it, I agree with the final result.

In today's world its getting harder and harder to keep non-AA dogs, unless you keep your own pack, or run with a group of friends. Less places to go, less dog-savvy people, and definite less "real pit bull people".

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Postby anissa » August 2nd, 2006, 11:55 am

As I said in a previous post.. I do not believe Liz or Shana lead me on to believe Jaida was a perfect little angel. Like Liz said, they gave me as much information as they had, both from personal experience, and the information that had been passed along to them. As Sis said, there could be some information that has been left out, perhaps by the previous owners or the previous rescue.. but I do not want their ignorance to reflect on Liz, Shana or fortheloveofpits rescue. As a rescue, they went above and beyond for Jaida (Domino). They were put through many challenges to rescue her from euthanization.. then, out of their own pocket and personal time, spent an entire 24 hour day.. driving and introducing us to Jaida. Unfortunately.. like Liz mentioned, they were caught up in some nasty rescue politics, and in the end the only one that suffered is Jaida. As a result.. we have alot of work to do with her. Its obvious that she is lacking socialization and doggie manners, amoung other things.

Romanwild wrote:I only did public classes once then decided I would be better off in a all pit bull class for the most part.


This was our first public class, and let me tell you.. after that experience we will not be returning to it, or any other that does not deal with pits specifically. Ive got your number and will definately use it (probably more than you'de like me to).

I'd love to make it out to the Bull-ympics, however I dont think I'll be able to this year. I am still a Canadian citizen waiting on immigration. Until then.. I do not have a social security number, and without one, I can not drive or work. My Canadian licence has expired, and with my husband deploying in a week.. I do not have transportation out to Syracuse. Not to mention.. I believe my surgery is going to be set around that time.

I am going to give you a call to inquire more about the NNY bulldoggers club.

Big_Ant wrote:
I know the first response to a dog biting is 'it needs to be put down'.. but Im not sure if I can live with that guilt.


Guilt has nothing to do with it. If you own this breed, IMO, you have to be able to do this if necessary. You mention not being able to live with the guilt. I'm not sure I could live with another dog biting someone because of an irresponsible (phrasing, not directed at you) owner.

I have zero tolerance for Human Aggression (again, not diagnosing this as human aggro, far too few details), and would have no problem putting a dog down if it was necessary. It's a 'necessary evil' when owning this breed, IMHO.

- Anthony



You're absolutely right. I would definately do what was neccessary if it were so, and would not question the decision if it were clearly HA. With that statement, I was simply trying to keep from some possible first responses being: "OMG She bit someone?! Put her down NOW!!"





:idea1: I am learning that I need to start being alittle more technical and literal with the terms and statements I make on this board. (and most other forums)
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Postby SpiritFngrz » August 3rd, 2006, 8:11 am

Keep us posted on Jaida when you find a new trainer anissa :)
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Postby julie k » August 4th, 2006, 7:53 pm

BigDogBuford wrote:
"I agree with this. Most experienced trainers aren't even fazed by a nip. They're not ususally happy about it, but will certainly give you some behavior modification tequiques, or work a bit more with the dog to see exactly what type of aggression it was and go from there."

Most experienced dog trainers learn how to avoid being bitten, unless they are wearing a sleeve. That was not a Schutzhund slam, guys, I admire and support those of you who do.

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Postby BigDogBuford » August 4th, 2006, 11:54 pm

julie k wrote:BigDogBuford wrote:
"I agree with this. Most experienced trainers aren't even fazed by a nip. They're not ususally happy about it, but will certainly give you some behavior modification tequiques, or work a bit more with the dog to see exactly what type of aggression it was and go from there."

Most experienced dog trainers learn how to avoid being bitten, unless they are wearing a sleeve. That was not a Schutzhund slam, guys, I admire and support those of you who do.

Julie K, fingers and toes intact


Yeah, that's actually what I meant. Being nipped (pant leg, sleeve, no blood) as opposed to bitten. She said the dog nipped her trainer and it sounded like the trainer over-reacted a bit. JMHO

I don't think I recall ever seeing an experienced trainer actually bitten myself.
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Postby Kingsgurl » August 5th, 2006, 1:54 am

and as far as 'biting' the trainer.. had the damn trainer had enough sense not to just walk up to a dog unexpectedly, we would have walked out of there proud as hell.


I'm sorry, but in this troubled time for our dogs, they damn well better be able to be walked up on unexpectedly. I'm a little concerned to see the blame being shifted to the trainer and away from the dog. The people you will encounter while out in public with this dog will, in all likelyhood, be far less dog experienced than she was.
Behavior like this is virtually impossible for any of us to diagnose over the internet, that dog needs to be seen by a behavioralist or someone very knowledgable about true Pit Bull temperment. Perhaps the rescue that placed her with you can help you out? Dogs that have been re-homed often sometimes exhibit 'honeymoon' type periods while they adjust to their new surroundings. Perhaps they could observe her now that she is comfortable in her enviornment?
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Postby concreterose » August 5th, 2006, 11:42 am

What rescues has this dog been through?
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Postby msvette2u » August 5th, 2006, 3:15 pm

Any updates on Jaida?
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