Blog: Physical Punishment - why it works, harm it can do

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Postby pitbullmamaliz » December 16th, 2012, 10:06 am

This blog addresses one of the major things I hate about a primary argument my fellow force-free trainers use - "punishment doesn't work." Of course it does, that's ridiculous. People wouldn't use it if it didn't work because people aren't inherently cruel (mostly). Using that as an argument against compulsion is counterproductive and just makes people tune us out. Same with saying that dogs trained with punishment are always shut down or frightened. Again, not true, but it's bandied about like gospel. Force free trainers need to educate gently to those who are open, and use our own dogs as examples of the power of force free training.

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Use of physical punishment in training – why it works and the harm it can do


Before I start this post, I want to preface it by saying I am now a 100% force free trainer and have been for some years now. I can’t remember the last time I shouted at a dog other than my own (which was a long time before I knew any better) and don’t even say “No” any more, rather I give the dog’s I am working with “instructional reprimands” as Ian Dunbar calls them.

If any of you have read my first post, you will know that I came from a background of traditional dog training. I took my young Dogue de Bordeaux to a sports dog club, where the use of choke chains and prong collars was common place and shock collars were sometimes seen.

The reason I used metal collars was because

1. I wasn’t shown anything different and

2. I was getting results.

My dog Bosco was a terrible puller on the lead and I taught him, in the space of about 5 minutes, to walk to heal using a prong collar. I also taught a great down stay, sit stay and recall, all using a prong collar. Prong collars work, that’s why I used them and that’s why people continue to use them. Now I wasn’t a barbarian who enjoyed hurting my dog. I loved my boy and wanted what was best for him which was to mind his manners and do as I asked of him, I just went about it the wrong way. In my experience this is generally true of most dog trainers (always exceptions of course).

Prong collars work by, according to the operant model, positive punishment. The positive part is a plus sign(+) where something is added to punish (reduce) the undesired behaviour. So in the instance above with Bosco, pulling on the lead, getting up from a stay and not coming back were all punished/reduced by me adding a correction (i.e. painful experience) with the prong collar. The father of operant training, B.F. Skinner did this in a lab using rats. Rats were put in a box where, upon pressing one lever they obtained a food pellet and on pressing another one got an electric shock. It doesn’t take too long before the rat learns which button to press and which to avoid.

As progressive/force free/non-aversive trainers, we need to understand why other “balanced” trainers do what they do. I recently had a discussion on a web training forum on this issue. The other person argued that using force in training doesn’t work. She argued that I hadn’t trained a down stay from Bosco, merely taught him not to get up, that I hadn’t trained heeling, merely punished him for pulling on the lead. My response to this is, really what is the difference? The picture looks that same, Bosco stays down and walks on a loose leash.

I think arguing against the effectiveness of forceful training is futile. What we should be doing is educating about the fallout or effect it has on our relationship with our dogs. I am currently making my way through Steve White’s DVD set, “How Police K9 techniques can transform your everyday training”. Steve is a progressive trainer who has trained police dogs forever. In the seminar, he states that when punishment is being used (he’s not condoning it), the dog should not associate the punishment with the handler. This is because it breaks down the bond of trust between handler and dog. The dog is less likely to trust someone who hurts it, which is hugely problematic when your dog is your police partner. The breakdown of handler/dog relationship is the best which happens. The worst that can happen is that you end up with a dog who is frightened and/or aggressive to the environment.

For instance, I taught Bosco to be super reactive to other dogs. I did this really well. He pulled because he wanted to say hello to other dogs and people he met. The harder he pulled, the more I corrected him. The more I corrected him the more he associated other dogs in the environment with pain and the more reactive he became as he learned that the pain stops when the dog goes away. What could have happened because he knew it was me who was hurting him, would have been to turn around and attack me. That would be among the worst things which could have happened.

By understanding why traditional trainers do what they do, knowing our own craft inside out so that we can produce better results and be able to demonstrate that our dogs are working for us because they want to and not because they fear not doing it, rather than dismissing these techniques as ineffective then hopefully we can continue to change things.

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"Remember - every time your dog gets somewhere on a tight leash *a fairy dies and it's all your fault.* Think of the fairies." http://www.positivepetzine.com"

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Postby Hundilein » December 17th, 2012, 6:43 pm

pitbullmamaliz wrote:This blog addresses one of the major things I hate about a primary argument my fellow force-free trainers use - "punishment doesn't work." Of course it does, that's ridiculous. People wouldn't use it if it didn't work because people aren't inherently cruel (mostly). Using that as an argument against compulsion is counterproductive and just makes people tune us out. Same with saying that dogs trained with punishment are always shut down or frightened. Again, not true, but it's bandied about like gospel. Force free trainers need to educate gently to those who are open, and use our own dogs as examples of the power of force free training.


Yup. I always said in my basic training orientation that the reason we were not going to use physical punishment in class was not because it doesn't work. In fact, I told them that anyone who said it didn't was wrong and didn't know what they were talking about. I then explained the potential fallout and how important (and difficult for the average owner) it is to use correctly.

And I especially agree with the bolded part of your statement, Liz :wink:

I had an interesting experience at a national training conference I went to a couple of years ago. There was a trick trainer doing a demo and then talking about how to train all these different tricks for TV and shows and the like. Two things really bothered me about her presentation. One, her dogs kept breaking their stays. And two, she referred to the same action on her part as three different consequences for the dog, depending on the scenario. I can't remember exactly what three things they were, but I know one was reinforcement and one was punishment.

The reason this bothered me so much is because she was all about how you can teach all these things without force. And I felt like if this was the best "positive training" had to offer, there was no way we would ever convince traditional trainers to try another way. Anyone who knows me knows that I am a clicker trainer and I train as much as possible without positive punishment. (I'd be lying if I said I never use positive punishment because I have a temper and I yell at my dog.) And I truly think that for the average pet owner, that is the best way to train. However, I also think that professional "positive" or "force free" trainers need to "walk the walk" and demonstrate that these methods really do work. And for goodness' sake, learn the science and terminology so that when you are speaking to other professional trainers you don't sound like an idiot.
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