Fear based behaviors and corrections

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Postby Malli » October 20th, 2011, 11:04 pm

TheRedQueen wrote:
mnp13 wrote:
Malli wrote:there are so many balanced, lovely, easy, dogs in the world, sometimes I don't understand


Bingo.


Right. I took on Inara as a project, as I'm guessing many trainers have done. But since her, I've chosen relatively easy dogs...without big issues. I wanted a project at the time of her adoption, but not anymore. Even so, I don't have kids, and I knew what I was getting into with her.

But this is why I'm always so fast to push euthanasia with iffy rescues. I don't want the adoption to end up like this.

:nono:



but you knew you could make her better, too. You didn't make her worse. I think it is more acceptable to take on a dog like that if you KNOW you can make a positive impact. I'm not saying there isn't a place for problem dogs, but only with the right, dedicated people. Not some idiot who tried to fix an f-ed up fear response with corrections. fak. some people's kids.
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Postby TheRedQueen » October 21st, 2011, 7:47 am

Malli wrote:
but you knew you could make her better, too. You didn't make her worse. I think it is more acceptable to take on a dog like that if you KNOW you can make a positive impact. I'm not saying there isn't a place for problem dogs, but only with the right, dedicated people. Not some idiot who tried to fix an f-ed up fear response with corrections. fak. some people's kids.


yup...exactly.

I've got a an appt. tonight with a biting dog in a family. They were ready to get rid of the dog, a client/friend of mine told them "NO! Have Erin check it out first!" So I have an appt. tonight...should be interesting. :|
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Postby mnp13 » October 21st, 2011, 8:13 am

Well, I'm sure this owner had the intention to "make her better" too. However, they also don't really want to listen to advice that doesn't match what they want to do already.
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Postby TheRedQueen » October 21st, 2011, 8:27 am

mnp13 wrote:Well, I'm sure this owner had the intention to "make her better" too. However, they also don't really want to listen to advice that doesn't match what they want to do already.


This is the hard part...emotions take over, they're attached to the dog, despite it being too much for them. I run into this all of the time.

People figure it can't be too hard, they see people on TV fixing dogs in less than 30 minutes...why can't they do the same?
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Postby mnp13 » October 21st, 2011, 8:59 am

That about covers it. Honestly, the thing that really annoyed me was that when I was first told about the dog, I specifically said "take the prong off, research clicker training and do not bring the dog to the Schutzhund trainer, the ones that are familiar with positive training are few and very far between." Because I DO use corrections in my training when I feel it's necessary, it's not what people "usually" think of when they think of me working with dogs.

It would be like if Erin told me "you should consider using a prong collar for that." I'd stop for a second and think "wow, if Erin said that, I need to consider it because it's not her usual thing and there is probably a reason for that."
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Postby furever_pit » October 21st, 2011, 7:44 pm

I actually know far more Schutzhund and other protection sport trainers that are familiar with positive training systems than field trial trainers - talk about compulsion and force work. :shock:

So has this woman had any kind of epiphany after seeing the way her dog acted with you? I feel like I'm waiting to hear her lightbulb came on.
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Postby mnp13 » October 21st, 2011, 8:08 pm

Well, I guess it all depends on who you ask on the Schutzhund stuff. I don't know much about field trials.

No, no epiphany, they are keeping her because she's "so young." Yeah, and at eight months she bit someone repeatedly who was simply standing in the living room. I think that would be enough, but no.
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Postby Ino » October 21st, 2011, 10:19 pm

We are going through the "age" thing with a dog at our shelter now. It is an 8 month old brindle pit mix that can not stand to be touched at all. He has been "nippy" a few times, but mostly he just gives people a mad stink eye, tenses up, shakes, lip licks, tucks his tail and pins his ears back if someone touches him (moving slowly, moving fast- he will nip). Somehow a pic of him looking terrified started circulating through rescue pleas. Initially people with good intentions were trying to get him into a foster or adoptive home. We told them he is rescue only (they have to have their 501c3 to pull from us as a rescue) and they have to come meet him prior to pulling. We are trying to shift their focus to one of the 4 other brindle pits in the shelter who have close to the same chance of getting out of there and that have great temperments. I don't understand why "this" dog out of all of the sweet ones we will be putting down is the focus. Maybe it is age, maybe his pathetic looking picture- but they won't listen. We aren't allowed to put him down because people have been calling the rescue coordinator about him- nobody has come to meet him and I am sure if they did they would reconsider. He may improve some, but he will take a lot of time and will probably always be a liability (bite wise). I told the rescue coordinator in the wrong placement, we will see him back as a bite dog. Why don't they take the brindle pit that is just a little older and is a little fearful but friendly? Or the one that urinates when you first pet him but is nice?? They will be hard to home but have good temperments. The reality is he is miserable around humans- he hauls ass if you put your foot anywhere near him and starts trying to chew through the leash while he is as far away from you as the leash allows. I had to muzzle wrap him to put him back in the kennel cause he wouldn't walk on leash (they had him out in the yard to evaluate his temperment to see if it improved) and was not going to let me carry him without attempting to bite. I just don't get why someone would put the dog, the family and the rescue's reputation on the line for a dog that is going to bite someone. Meanwhile we put a blue pit that had mange and heartworms down today, that had the sweetest temperment and not one rescue or person called to ask about him. He was young too and once he got his hair back, would have made a great family pet. Logic gets twisted when emotions run high. It is just like how we feel when we hear a kid died vs an adult dies. Age matters when it comes to death and human emotions. :|
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Postby mnp13 » October 21st, 2011, 10:53 pm

It's the "sob story" that's all that matters. The pathetic picture with the story gets the attention. The solid temperament that just got dumped? No way. Why would anyone want that??? :rollEyes2:

This one came with the "born at a breeder's house, where they threw sticks and rocks at her, and she lived in a back yard. So she's afraid of everyone and every thing." JUST what you need in a house full of kids... but the oh-poor-baby story was all there.

How many white GSD's are out there, taking up space in rescue, that have good temperaments? Probably more than can be counted. A couple dozen in this area... but get the biter. :|
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Postby furever_pit » October 21st, 2011, 10:58 pm

Go hang out with a field trial trainer for a day. Especially some of these folks who have been around for 20 years. I was talking to one guy the other day who told me he never praises his dogs. When I asked why he explained, "they're not really good dogs, just better dogs."

Pretty much everything is forced. When I showed some field trial folks how to teach a down (you don't need that in field trial dogs, so they've never taught it) using food or toy lures it was literally something they had never seen or even thought about before. How did they want to teach it? Collar conditioning with electric.

Anyway, back to the thread...sorry about hijacking.

Ino, that's so sad that the other dogs are getting passed over. The truth is that the dog you are speaking of would probably find some relief in being put down. Can you imagine what it must be like to live with that kind of fear?
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Postby DemoDick » October 22nd, 2011, 2:28 am

When you write "field trial dogs" are you talking about gun dogs?

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Postby furever_pit » October 22nd, 2011, 10:29 am

Gun dogs used for field trials. Evidently there is a world of difference between field trial dogs, hunt test dogs, and regular hunting dogs. Who knew?
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Postby DemoDick » October 22nd, 2011, 11:01 am

Yeah, those guys live on force training.

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Postby TheRedQueen » October 22nd, 2011, 1:54 pm

They're the ones that I've seen use TWO e-collars...one for the neck, one for the groin.
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Postby DemoDick » October 22nd, 2011, 2:06 pm

I've seen that done for different reasons. It's not de facto abusive, but I wouldn't personally do it. Some people pay good money for the sort of thing.

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Postby furever_pit » October 22nd, 2011, 3:26 pm

TheRedQueen wrote:They're the ones that I've seen use TWO e-collars...one for the neck, one for the groin.


I actually have yet to see that with these folks. I have seen it with some European trainers - although the second collar isn't actually around the dog's genitals but around the waist. I've only seen a handful of people use it in the states and like any correction, as long as it's fair I don't really have a problem with it.
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Postby TheRedQueen » October 23rd, 2011, 5:50 pm

:neener: I didn't pass judgement on the method...I just said that those are the types of trainers that use that sort of thing. We were talking about field trial trainers being believers in force...and that was a comment about that. Don't try and draw me out into a discussion about that being abusive or not...
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Postby DemoDick » October 23rd, 2011, 8:13 pm

TheRedQueen wrote::neener: I didn't pass judgement on the method...I just said that those are the types of trainers that use that sort of thing. We were talking about field trial trainers being believers in force...and that was a comment about that. Don't try and draw me out into a discussion about that being abusive or not...


I for one wasn't trying to draw you out. I think everyone would correctly predict your feelings on force training. I was trying to bring some clarity to the description of the method for those that might never have encountered it, which is probably most of the membership.

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Postby mnp13 » October 23rd, 2011, 8:19 pm

I have no problem with the discussion taking place, but please take it to another thread. Thanks. :)
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Postby TheRedQueen » October 23rd, 2011, 9:56 pm

mnp13 wrote:I have no problem with the discussion taking place, but please take it to another thread. Thanks. :)


Sorry...forgot what thread we were in originally! :oops:
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

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