Help before i totally flip out!!!!

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Postby Maryellen » May 23rd, 2006, 12:58 pm

LOL :neener:
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Postby Cuda » May 23rd, 2006, 1:01 pm

.---attention is attention to dogs, (and even children, ). They don't necessarily care if it's positive or negative.


Attention is attention IF the subjects world is all roses and candy canes. But if the attention is getting tackled by the pack leader for trying to eat before its their turn, or catching a smack in the ass for telling their mother or father to go "eff" themselves. That attention then becomes a correction and is no longer just attention.

EDIT:

I forgot to say that those corrections or punishments must be realtive to the infraction, You cant beat your 6yr old kid for spelling C A T wrong, But let a 17 yr old kid come marching in the door with the cops beind him for stealing a car, then smuggling drugs, getting high and raping nuns, and ill be damned if there wont be a red fanny in my house that night.
Last edited by Cuda on May 23rd, 2006, 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby a-bull » May 23rd, 2006, 1:02 pm

dogcrazyjen wrote:Well, if my way works for Tess, how am I wrong?


Just because something works, doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea---and I didn't say you're "wrong"---I just do not think this 'matchstick training method' is a good method to be offering people.

Has anyone run this matchstick idea by their vet??
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Postby Maryellen » May 23rd, 2006, 1:04 pm

cuda wrote
Attention is attention IF the subjects world is all roses and candy canes. But if the attention is getting tackled by the pack leader for trying to eat before its their turn, or catching a smack in the fanny for telling their mother or father to go "eff" themselves. That attention then becomes a correction and is no longer just attention.


negative attention and positive attention are the same per say. in other words, negative attention gets you to pay attention to the dog , positive attention gets you to pay attention to the dog.. its just one is good, and one is oh crap i am in trouble.. but at least he is paying attention to me, so i will take the punishment, cause he is acknowledging me...

there is a difference between eating and stealing food from a pack member to not pooping outside and regressing in training... its not the same..
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Postby a-bull » May 23rd, 2006, 1:10 pm

Cuda wrote:
.---attention is attention to dogs, (and even children, ). They don't necessarily care if it's positive or negative.


Attention is attention IF the subjects world is all roses and candy canes. But if the attention is getting tackled by the pack leader for trying to eat before its their turn, or catching a smack in the fanny for telling their mother or father to go "eff" themselves. That attention then becomes a correction and is no longer just attention.



"Getting tackled by the pack leader for trying to eat before its their turn" is an example of packorder---not attention seeking. Dogs don't eat out of turn for attention.

A child "telling their mother or father to go 'eff' themselves" is an example of rebellion, anger, frustration, etc.---not attention seeking.

:|
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Postby Cuda » May 23rd, 2006, 1:14 pm

negative attention and positive attention are the same per say. in other words, negative attention gets you to pay attention to the dog , positive attention gets you to pay attention to the dog.. its just one is good, and one is oh poop i am in trouble.. but at least he is paying attention to me, so i will take the punishment, cause he is acknowledging me...

there is a difference between eating and stealing food from a pack member to not pooping outside and regressing in training... its not the same..


The dog is much less prone to "take the pnishment" if that punishment is enough to impress into the dogs head that acting a fool while in the crate is not a good idea.

And im not telling people to punish the dog for not pooping outside or regressing in training. But i was supplying the people with a little "trick of the trade" of how to speed up the learning that pooping is okay and will be rewarded ifdone under the right circumstances.

If the training is regressing its almost something that the handler has done wrong. You cant punish the dog because you screwed something up. BUT on the other hand. If someone walks in my house and i KNOW my dog knows that "off" means stop jumping on the guests. Then my dog looks at me after i say "Cuda, OFF" aknowledging that he heard the command and flips me the bird. You best believe that wont be seens as the same thing as a regression in training or not pooping outside on command.
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Postby katiek0417 » May 23rd, 2006, 1:15 pm

a-bull wrote:
dogcrazyjen wrote:Well, if my way works for Tess, how am I wrong?


Just because something works, doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea---and I didn't say you're "wrong"---I just do not think this 'matchstick training method' is a good method to be offering people.

Has anyone run this matchstick idea by their vet??


Actually, yes. I have run it by several vets. My vet thought it was a good idea.

And guess what, a-bull...the second dog I have used it on NEVER pooped in the house (Unless she had a wicked case of diarrhea) - and I got her at 6.5 weeks old - she's nearly 10 mos now. My older dog will only potty in the house when she's ready to go into heat (and I excuse that b/c she's usually a flake around that time). The most important part was not that they pooped...but that they did it outside. I ensured that there wasn't failure...that EVERY time they pooped, they got praised for it....

My dog consistently go outside: without a match. I can still use it now in a pinch, though. You are automatically disqualified from ANY competition if your dog eliminates on the field. It is often easy to get a dog to pee...harder to get them to poop...the match ensures that they are "empty" before hitting the field.
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Postby Cuda » May 23rd, 2006, 1:16 pm

a-bull wrote:
Cuda wrote:
.---attention is attention to dogs, (and even children, ). They don't necessarily care if it's positive or negative.


Attention is attention IF the subjects world is all roses and candy canes. But if the attention is getting tackled by the pack leader for trying to eat before its their turn, or catching a smack in the fanny for telling their mother or father to go "eff" themselves. That attention then becomes a correction and is no longer just attention.



"Getting tackled by the pack leader for trying to eat before its their turn" is an example of packorder---not attention seeking. Dogs don't eat out of turn for attention.

A child "telling their mother or father to go 'eff' themselves" is an example of rebellion, anger, frustration, etc.---not attention seeking.

:|


Okay but it is still attention in some way shape or form that they will receive after the fact, is it not?
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Postby a-bull » May 23rd, 2006, 1:23 pm

katiek0417 wrote:
a-bull wrote:
dogcrazyjen wrote:Well, if my way works for Tess, how am I wrong?


Just because something works, doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea---and I didn't say you're "wrong"---I just do not think this 'matchstick training method' is a good method to be offering people.

Has anyone run this matchstick idea by their vet??


Actually, yes. I have run it by several vets. My vet thought it was a good idea.

And guess what, a-bull...the second dog I have used it on NEVER pooped in the house (Unless she had a wicked case of diarrhea) - and I got her at 6.5 weeks old - she's nearly 10 mos now. My older dog will only potty in the house when she's ready to go into heat (and I excuse that b/c she's usually a flake around that time). The most important part was not that they pooped...but that they did it outside. I ensured that there wasn't failure...that EVERY time they pooped, they got praised for it....

My dog consistently go outside: without a match. I can still use it now in a pinch, though. You are automatically disqualified from ANY competition if your dog eliminates on the field. It is often easy to get a dog to pee...harder to get them to poop...the match ensures that they are "empty" before hitting the field.


Well, if you're doing it for competition purposes, and your vet approved it, then I'll have to split hairs and give you that.

I do, however, stand by my view that this is not a generally good practice, there are certainly other options, and I don't think this method is a good suggestion to the original poster and his current problem. He is not competing with his dog and honestly, it sounds like he either has typical 'teenage' dog rebellion on his hands, a medical problem, or a training problem.

I appreciate your post. :)
Last edited by a-bull on May 23rd, 2006, 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby katiek0417 » May 23rd, 2006, 1:26 pm

Cuda wrote:
a-bull wrote:
Cuda wrote:
.---attention is attention to dogs, (and even children, ). They don't necessarily care if it's positive or negative.


Attention is attention IF the subjects world is all roses and candy canes. But if the attention is getting tackled by the pack leader for trying to eat before its their turn, or catching a smack in the fanny for telling their mother or father to go "eff" themselves. That attention then becomes a correction and is no longer just attention.



"Getting tackled by the pack leader for trying to eat before its their turn" is an example of packorder---not attention seeking. Dogs don't eat out of turn for attention.

A child "telling their mother or father to go 'eff' themselves" is an example of rebellion, anger, frustration, etc.---not attention seeking.

:|


Okay but it is still attention in some way shape or form that they will receive after the fact, is it not?


You are right, Cuda....

Rebellion IS a form of attention seeking...according to the latest literature in the area....

If you look at the similar situation: there is a child in class who keeps acting out in class. The teacher yells at him. To the teacher, he/she is giving positive punishment (giving of something bad to DECREASE the likelihood of a behavior). To the child, he/she is receiving positive reinforcement (the giving of something good to INCREASE the likelihood of the behavior). The child is acting out because maybe that's the ONLY time the teacher pays attention to him/her. So, what is recommended: the teacher should praise the child for being quiet/working quietly...so the DESIRED behavior is the one that is increased, whild decreasing the UNDESIRED behavior.

Similarly, let's say a dog wants attention...so it jumps on your lap while you're doing work. You push the dog off of you. You still just touched the dog...gave it attention...what did you just tell the dog? You just told it that if you jump on me, you'll get me to touch you...even if it is to push you off/yell at you/whatever....so, instead: praise it for sitting quietly waiting to be pet...and IGNORE it when it jumps up....
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

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Postby Maryellen » May 23rd, 2006, 1:26 pm

good posting Abull.. i agree also. while the match can be ok for competition dogs, for regular dogs with regular issues such as brain farts or just regressing, a match should not be used, but the owner should reassess the dog.. has things changed inthe house? routine? is there a medical problem? once the above has been ruled out, then the owner should go back to basic housebreaking training and just start over..
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Postby a-bull » May 23rd, 2006, 1:29 pm

Cuda wrote:
a-bull wrote:
Cuda wrote:
.---attention is attention to dogs, (and even children, ). They don't necessarily care if it's positive or negative.


Attention is attention IF the subjects world is all roses and candy canes. But if the attention is getting tackled by the pack leader for trying to eat before its their turn, or catching a smack in the fanny for telling their mother or father to go "eff" themselves. That attention then becomes a correction and is no longer just attention.



"Getting tackled by the pack leader for trying to eat before its their turn" is an example of packorder---not attention seeking. Dogs don't eat out of turn for attention.

A child "telling their mother or father to go 'eff' themselves" is an example of rebellion, anger, frustration, etc.---not attention seeking.

:|


Okay but it is still attention in some way shape or form that they will receive after the fact, is it not?


lol . . . are you trying to make me cry??

I think I'd call it more of a consequence. :)
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Postby dogcrazyjen » May 23rd, 2006, 1:29 pm

Abull, if you owned a single dog with all the same issues, I would love to hear how you went about it.

Just to recap, not housebroken, will not poop on leash (50 ftlead), is not crate trained (was ripping out bars of crate, scratching up floor, and finally busting out of crate entirely-finally went to airline crate which made a huge difference), will jump or crash any gate, cannot be left alone in a room, fights with other dog, no fenced in areas outside, kids in house making door separation dangerous. Oh, and having clients coming to house with dogs, and going to school part time.

I am not saying there are not other ways to handle things, but my way worked with my dog and my situation. I do not understand why you keep insisting I am wrong when what I did worked, and I have not damaged my bond with my dog?

Also,
The dog is much less prone to "take the punishment" if that punishment is enough to impress into the dogs head that acting a fool while in the crate is not a good idea.


If Tess were indeed seeing my negative attention as a positive, she would repeat the behavior. She does not. I have not needed to go back upstairs to correct a behavior in many months. Usually i just hollor up the stairs "That'll Do!" and she stops. I used melodrama to impress my displeasure, and it worked.

You are getting caught up in theory, and ignoring what is actually occuring. In theory, dogs can see negative attention as good and continue the behavior. But this is not what is occuring. This dog is stopping the behavior usually under simply the threat of negative attention.

If indeed I went back up and rewarded the dog for calming down?

She got all upset and worked up again!!


It did not work. I could not let her out for beig quiet because my other dog needed time out of her crate. AND, quite frankly I was not going to listen to her whine and carry on for hours. I would have shot her or myself. (that is an exaggeration, but you get the point)

What we did worked. It worked well, and it did not take hours, and no one was hurt. I wanted her to know I was disciplining her for whining. Wild dogs do not wait until another dog behaves and then rewards, they correct bad behavior. And that dog knows who is doing the correcting. There is nothing wrong, cruel, or unnatural about correction, as long as it is done well, and for the right reasons.
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Postby katiek0417 » May 23rd, 2006, 1:37 pm

dogcrazyjen wrote:
What we did worked. It worked well, and it did not take hours, and no one was hurt. I wanted her to know I was disciplining her for whining. Wild dogs do not wait until another dog behaves and then rewards, they correct bad behavior. And that dog knows who is doing the correcting. There is nothing wrong, cruel, or unnatural about correction, as long as it is done well, and for the right reasons.


Similar to (even though I dont do it myself) an alpha roll....

I correct my dogs all the time (let's not talk about the fight Sacha and I got in this weekend...I won)....

You need to do it consistently (no mixed messages)...and the punishment should fit the crime...JMO
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

Katrina
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Nisha CGC, PDC, PSA TC, PSA 1 - Crazy Malinois
Drusilla SLUT- Pet
Nemo - Dual-Purpose Narcotics
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Rocky - RIP My Baby Boy
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Postby a-bull » May 23rd, 2006, 1:40 pm

I never said there was anything "wrong, cruel, or unnatural" about correction---although there are corrections that can be wrong, cruel and unnatural, but that's another thread, lol . . .

I've owned all rescue dogs, all with major/multiple issues, and if someone is really interested in a specific issue and how I addressed it, I'm more than happy to offer my experience in a pm.

In the meantime, I don't want to go too far off course from the original poster's question.
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Postby dogcrazyjen » May 23rd, 2006, 1:44 pm

You just told it that if you jump on me, you'll get me to touch you...even if it is to push you off/yell at you/whatever....so, instead: praise it for sitting quietly waiting to be pet...and IGNORE it when it jumps up....


Great advice, in theory. Dogs don't always wait. They also are getting rewarded by being in your lap, even when you are ignoring them.

You could also put the dog on leash and lock it in another room, or in a crate, or pick up your water and toss it, or give a counter command and reward, or stand up, yelling NO!!!, there are many ways to handle it. It all depends on the dog.

Tallulah, if you ignore her, she just makes herself at home. She will cuddle right up, and start chewing your ear. Ignoring her is permission in her eyes. The ONLY thing that works for her is to tell her NO and shove her off the couch or your lap, about 5 times. She makes a circle, looks at you as if to say .."you could not have meant THAT!" and does it again. After about 5 times she will walk over, put her chin on your leg, and sigh. Ignoring her does nothing but encourage her. Counter commands don't work, unless you offer her what she wanted, which was being in your lap. BTs are just that way. After 5 times or so, she will give up and go lay down on another chair, sighing and looking over her shoulder at you.

Jack you can block with your arm before he gets up, and he will play the game, and sit nicely. Twisting your body away or blocking him works. He will do whatever he needs to get what he wants, he knows how things work. A simple 'eh' will make him stop and sit nicely.

Tess just wants to be near you. If you ignore climbing, she will lay in your lap quietly, hoping you don't notice her :wink: . If you block her she will press as much of her body to you as she can. Redirecting her works like a charm, tell her sit and she complies wonderfully, tell her to down and she will lay on your feet for hours.

Every dog is different. Not every method works for every dog. That is why it is nice when all of us give advice. That is why it makes no sense to criticize advice because you personally would not do it, but it isn't abusive. My advice might do the trick for this dog. Or yours might. But we need both seen in order to give this person all the options.
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Postby hoagiesmomma » May 23rd, 2006, 1:45 pm

a-bull wrote:right, and for the people who are having trouble with their dogs whining and barking in their crate, I thought that was a good little blurb about why that may be---because I agree, if the crate is properly introduced, you shouldn't have a dog that barks or whines incessantly when crated.


while I don't scold mine in the crate (I just couldn't bring myself to toss a glass of water in their faces...sorry)...I don't necessarily think that a proper introduction to the crate will ensure they won't occassionally spazz while in it.

mine only see the inside of their crates a few hours a day and usually sleep it off...willingly.

but if I have company afoot right over their heads, or children playing in the next room...they can fuss like the dickens to get out and join the fray. this doesn't necessarily mean they are ill-adjusted in their crates...

but they certainly disagree with my decision to put them there!

:D
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Postby a-bull » May 23rd, 2006, 1:49 pm

Oh I agree . . . fussing happens. :)
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Postby dogcrazyjen » May 23rd, 2006, 1:49 pm

I would like to know how you would handle ALL the above issues for one dog at the same time. I could have handled any one of these issues differently, but put them all together in one dog at once and this was the path I found. PM me if you would like, or I can start another thread.


I never said there was anything "wrong, cruel, or unnatural" about correction---


You did not use those exact words, but your disapproval was loud and clear.

I could be transferring here. I have had multiple bad encounters with clicker nazis that made me want to buy a prong! I always seek to find a positive motivation method first, but i have been around enough to see that positive is not always the only or best method for every problem.
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Postby dogcrazyjen » May 23rd, 2006, 1:52 pm

I also said the match was a short term thing, to get the dog doing the job in the right place in order to praise. Why is this not being heard?
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