Help before i totally flip out!!!!

This forum is all about training and behavior. Everything from potty training to working titles!

Postby Cuda » May 23rd, 2006, 12:25 pm

dogcrazyjen wrote:So tell me, if I managed to handle all the issues successfully, why the scornful comments on my training?


Well for some people if its not all positivly done youll end up with the dog from hell scarred for life :)

Now i think we all know that corrections for pooping in the house are VERY VERY counter productive. But helping the dog poop in the right situations so that the behavior can be marked and praised and down the road labeled is VERY productive.
User avatar
Cuda
Snot Nose Bully Pup
 
Posts: 143
Location: North Jersey

Postby a-bull » May 23rd, 2006, 12:29 pm

Cuda wrote:
a-bull wrote:
Cuda wrote:As much as i can see why you guys like to take the long slow route with the rettraining of potty training. How much damage do you think a tiny unlit match is going to do to their butt?? Common lets be serious now. Im sure all of our dogs have passed stuff MUCH bigger then a tiny matchstick. Maybe i should have clarified that you dont stick the side that gets lit in there the sulfer may have a damaging effect. but otherwise a little bit of cardboard is really doing them no harm. And personally even if it only take 3 days off the re-housebreaking. 3 days of $h1t spots on my carpet and smelly house is HUGE...


Passing stuff and putting things in a dog's rectum are a bit different.

Maybe the dog doesn't necessarily need to go when you want them to. Aren't there a bunch of people on here who feed raw because dogs are like wolves and that's how wolves eat? Does the alpha in the wolf pack run dog to dog with his matchstick after they all eat??


Yes they are a "bit" different but not that much. In all reality if you jam something up your dogs butt on a daily basis for years it would almost definatly have some sort of adverse effect. But again were talking about a cardboard matchstick here. Theres videos all over the net of people cramming baseball bat's, soda bottles, hands, feet, (insert prefered adult toy here). Im sure the dog will survive with a matchstick the size of this ======= JUST FINE.

No but there arent any crates in the wolf pack either. And on top of that there arent any carpets that people have spent thousands of dollars on, hardwood floors that cost about the same, people who have to get up and goto work at 8 a.m. and cant wait the hour outside to calmly wait for their dog to drop a duece while the 3 kids are inside needing help with homework, need dinner, showers, work that has been brought home.


Isn't the idea of the crate suppose to be the equivalent of a den?

So the idea here is if you're a very busy person with expensive carpeting, and because people do worse things in videos on the internet, it's "just fine" to force your dog to go to the bathroom when it may not need to by artificial means?

What isn't o.k.---if it's in the name of saving time or preserving carpets??
DISCLAIMER:

My posts are my own opinions unless otherwise stated. They are not necessarily correct for all dogs or all owners.
a-bull
I live here
 
Posts: 2926

Postby dogcrazyjen » May 23rd, 2006, 12:32 pm

throwing a glass of water at a dog in a crate could be akin to a squirt bottle disipline.. however, the glass of water is more messier then just ignoring the dog while barking, and then immediately rewarding for being quiet..
everyone has their own way of training, but what works for one wont work for another..


Exactly. Except Tess will start whining more if you reward her for not whining. She wants attention, and I put her in the crate so I can give attention to others. She has to be able to deal without my constant attention. Quit frankly, if she starts whining and I have to splash her, she sighs and goes to sleep. If I ignore her she whines louder; if I talk to her in her crate she gets worked up, panting, sometimes clawing at the crate, barking. Seems kinder to just have her settle down. And getting wet is not a torturous thing.


The idea of the squirt bottle is that it isn't suppose to be obvious---the dog receives a negative stimilus as the result of an unwanted behavior. A glass of water certainly is a negative stimulus, but so is a hammer, ---just seems to me the dog can easily make the connection between the negative stimulus and the person, (when using a glass of water), rather than the purpose behind using a squirt bottle---which is for the dog to make the association between the negative stimulus and their own behavior.


LOL. This is really funny. You are saying water coming from a squirt bottle is somehow less negative than water coming from a glass? And you honestly think a dog cannot see that you are making the bottle squirt? And you are equating water with a hammer?


Yeah, ok.

:rolleyes2:
dogcrazyjen
Devoutly Bully
 
Posts: 922
Location: FingerLakes NY

Postby Maryellen » May 23rd, 2006, 12:35 pm

cuda wrote:
No but there arent any crates in the wolf pack either. And on top of that there arent any carpets that people have spent thousands of dollars on, hardwood floors that cost about the same, people who have to get up and goto work at 8 a.m. and cant wait the hour outside to calmly wait for their dog to drop a duece while the 3 kids are inside needing help with homework, need dinner, showers, work that has been brought home.


true, no wolf packs have crates , they have dens in woodpiles and caves..
however, if you have to get up and leave by 8 to go to work, then i say get up an hour earlier to work with your dog on going potty... i have to be at work at 8:30 yet i am at work every day by 8 in case i need to take time off i have already have time saved, i get up an hour earlier then i have to so that all 3 of my dogs and the foster dog go potty , exercise and eat breakfast, but not in that order...

if you are complaining about the cost of your carpets and hardwood floors, then dont have a dog. ,or , properly crate train the dog to go potty accordingly.. as far as kids, showers, dinner goes, i clean my house, take care of all 4 dogs for food, training exercise and potty, cook dinner for my husband, take care of whatever has to be taken care of, answer the phone for when the cops call for tows, etc, yet i have only had a few accidents from foster puppies in my house, and my fosters are tied to my hip with a long line so that i know where they are at all times..
if the dog is having the runs then something is wrong.. if the dog is just pooping regular poop in the house that is because he is not on a schedule.. no routine = no potty schedule... if you put your dog on a schedule/routine it will come easier.

for example i am up at 5:30 all 4 dogs go out for potty.. they all usually just pee. back inside 15 minutes later to feed them.. all 4 eat, and right after eating they are all outside again for poop. now, the puppy cant hold it like the adult dogs do, so he must go out for poop after eating.. the adult dogs usually just pee, and they dont poop until an hour after they eat.. so i know their schedule. , they are all on a routine.. i also threw them a party and treats the minute they all pooped as puppies growing up, so that they know.. i still to this day praise them for going pee and poop outside.. and they are 5, 4 and 12 years old..
Maryellen
I live here
 
Posts: 5971

Postby dogcrazyjen » May 23rd, 2006, 12:38 pm

So the idea here is if you're a very busy person with expensive carpeting, and because people do worse things in videos on the internet, it's "just fine" to force your dog to go to the bathroom when it may not need to by artificial means?

What isn't o.k.---if it's in the name of saving time or preserving carpets??


I think you missed his point. Not all of us have the time to 'do it right' every time, all the time, and some of us have other concerns in addition to our dogs. You may say then we should not have dogs. Well, maybe not. Of course you will have a massive problem on your hands, since MOST pet homes are busy, there are millions of dogs in busy homes. Are you going to rehome them all?

You may not agree with it, then don't do it. It is not abusing the dog to get help housebreaking with some quick solutions. It is not abusing the dogs to get splashed with water. Give me a break.

If you want to see problems, you should have met Tess when I got her. She was a mess. She is now a well adjusted girl. She has improved immensly under my care. So you really have no proof that what I did with my dog was the wrong thing, but I have proof it was the right thing.

I am not TELLING anyone they must do these things on their dogs. We are making suggestions.
dogcrazyjen
Devoutly Bully
 
Posts: 922
Location: FingerLakes NY

Postby Maryellen » May 23rd, 2006, 12:39 pm

dogcrazyjen wrote:
Exactly. Except Tess will start whining more if you reward her for not whining. She wants attention, and I put her in the crate so I can give attention to others. She has to be able to deal without my constant attention. Quit frankly, if she starts whining and I have to splash her, she sighs and goes to sleep. If I ignore her she whines louder; if I talk to her in her crate she gets worked up, panting, sometimes clawing at the crate, barking. Seems kinder to just have her settle down. And getting wet is not a torturous thing.


see, if you would let her whine eventually she would settle down, and that is when the reward comes, when she is quiet.. when you splash her you are giving her negative attention, and she is still getting what she wants, your attention.. even though negative..

i have had dogs whine, scream, bark , howl in a crate in my house. i walk away to another room until they stop. whether its an hour , 2 hours, or shorter, the minute they stop and are quiet, treats get thrown in and praise... the worst dog i had it took 3 days for the dog to learn that making noise makes me go away, but being quiet brings me with good things...

see, a squirt bottle you can aim and shoot and not have the dog see you.. but a glass of water the dog sees you coming ..
Maryellen
I live here
 
Posts: 5971

Postby a-bull » May 23rd, 2006, 12:41 pm

The idea behind the squirt bottle is a quick spritz that is suppose to be delivered without the dog seeing you squirt it, and I did not say squirting the dog was any less negative than a glass of water in its' face. Both are a negative stimulus.

I'll try it again---the idea is for the dog to make a connection between the behavior (that you are trying to extinguish), and a negative stimulus. The reason for the squirt bottle vs. a glass of water, (both negative stimuli), is to hopefully deliver the negative stimulus without the dog making an association back to you---hopefully having the dog make an association only between its' behavior and something negative happening---not associated with you---in order to correct the behavior.

The "hammer" was a joke, hence the "lol" after it.
DISCLAIMER:

My posts are my own opinions unless otherwise stated. They are not necessarily correct for all dogs or all owners.
a-bull
I live here
 
Posts: 2926

Postby dogcrazyjen » May 23rd, 2006, 12:42 pm

So what would you do if you had a dog which would NOT poop on a line, was aggressing with other dogs, was not crate trained at all, you did not have a fenced yard, and you could not put him in a separate room safely?

Sometimes you have to think outside the box, because the problems are outside the norm.

BTW, I agree about not rubbing noses in poop. THAT is likely the sort of thing which caused Tess' issues.
dogcrazyjen
Devoutly Bully
 
Posts: 922
Location: FingerLakes NY

Postby Cuda » May 23rd, 2006, 12:43 pm

a-bull wrote:
Cuda wrote:
a-bull wrote:
Cuda wrote:As much as i can see why you guys like to take the long slow route with the rettraining of potty training. How much damage do you think a tiny unlit match is going to do to their butt?? Common lets be serious now. Im sure all of our dogs have passed stuff MUCH bigger then a tiny matchstick. Maybe i should have clarified that you dont stick the side that gets lit in there the sulfer may have a damaging effect. but otherwise a little bit of cardboard is really doing them no harm. And personally even if it only take 3 days off the re-housebreaking. 3 days of $h1t spots on my carpet and smelly house is HUGE...


Passing stuff and putting things in a dog's rectum are a bit different.

Maybe the dog doesn't necessarily need to go when you want them to. Aren't there a bunch of people on here who feed raw because dogs are like wolves and that's how wolves eat? Does the alpha in the wolf pack run dog to dog with his matchstick after they all eat??


Yes they are a "bit" different but not that much. In all reality if you jam something up your dogs butt on a daily basis for years it would almost definatly have some sort of adverse effect. But again were talking about a cardboard matchstick here. Theres videos all over the net of people cramming baseball bat's, soda bottles, hands, feet, (insert prefered adult toy here). Im sure the dog will survive with a matchstick the size of this ======= JUST FINE.

No but there arent any crates in the wolf pack either. And on top of that there arent any carpets that people have spent thousands of dollars on, hardwood floors that cost about the same, people who have to get up and goto work at 8 a.m. and cant wait the hour outside to calmly wait for their dog to drop a duece while the 3 kids are inside needing help with homework, need dinner, showers, work that has been brought home.


Isn't the idea of the crate suppose to be the equivalent of a den?

So the idea here is if you're a very busy person with expensive carpeting, and because people do worse things in videos on the internet, it's "just fine" to force your dog to go to the bathroom when it may not need to by artificial means?

What isn't o.k.---if it's in the name of saving time or preserving carpets??


Yes the idea of the crate is meant to be the equiv of a den. But that doesnt mean that the pack leaders let the subs in the pack do whatever the hell they want in the den. Do you think dogs in the pack are allowed to use the den as their personal potty? Are the subs in the pack allowed to act a fool while on a hunt?

Forcing the dog to go to the bathroom is MUCH different then dealing with a dog that has either had some negativity associated with a BM or just doesnt feel like doing it that minute because playing is a bit higher on its priority list, or whatever other reasons people may have.

What isnt okay to me though is having a dog dropping a duece on my carpet because it saw potty time as time to go do whatever the heck it wanted to. Now if the dog has a case of the hershey squirts and my carpet got ruined because i either wasnt around to let him out or didnt hear him tell me in the middle of the night that he had to go is just fine by me. By all means if it hurts that much and it aint paying rent.. Its got to go.
Last edited by Cuda on May 23rd, 2006, 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Cuda
Snot Nose Bully Pup
 
Posts: 143
Location: North Jersey

Postby dogcrazyjen » May 23rd, 2006, 12:43 pm

Well, if my way works for Tess, how am I wrong?
dogcrazyjen
Devoutly Bully
 
Posts: 922
Location: FingerLakes NY

Postby dogcrazyjen » May 23rd, 2006, 12:44 pm

cuda you are crackin' me up!
dogcrazyjen
Devoutly Bully
 
Posts: 922
Location: FingerLakes NY

Postby a-bull » May 23rd, 2006, 12:45 pm

dogcrazyjen wrote:
So the idea here is if you're a very busy person with expensive carpeting, and because people do worse things in videos on the internet, it's "just fine" to force your dog to go to the bathroom when it may not need to by artificial means?

What isn't o.k.---if it's in the name of saving time or preserving carpets??


I think you missed his point. Not all of us have the time to 'do it right' every time, all the time, and some of us have other concerns in addition to our dogs. You may say then we should not have dogs. Well, maybe not. Of course you will have a massive problem on your hands, since MOST pet homes are busy, there are millions of dogs in busy homes. Are you going to rehome them all?

You may not agree with it, then don't do it. It is not abusing the dog to get help housebreaking with some quick solutions. It is not abusing the dogs to get splashed with water. Give me a break.

If you want to see problems, you should have met Tess when I got her. She was a mess. She is now a well adjusted girl. She has improved immensly under my care. So you really have no proof that what I did with my dog was the wrong thing, but I have proof it was the right thing.

I am not TELLING anyone they must do these things on their dogs. We are making suggestions.


I guess I agree with Maryellen, above, regarding being busy.

I didn't make any references to abuse.
DISCLAIMER:

My posts are my own opinions unless otherwise stated. They are not necessarily correct for all dogs or all owners.
a-bull
I live here
 
Posts: 2926

Postby Maryellen » May 23rd, 2006, 12:47 pm

that was msvette abull, not me.. but i had something the same posted too...
Maryellen
I live here
 
Posts: 5971

Postby a-bull » May 23rd, 2006, 12:47 pm

Maryellen wrote:dogcrazyjen wrote:
Exactly. Except Tess will start whining more if you reward her for not whining. She wants attention, and I put her in the crate so I can give attention to others. She has to be able to deal without my constant attention. Quit frankly, if she starts whining and I have to splash her, she sighs and goes to sleep. If I ignore her she whines louder; if I talk to her in her crate she gets worked up, panting, sometimes clawing at the crate, barking. Seems kinder to just have her settle down. And getting wet is not a torturous thing.


see, if you would let her whine eventually she would settle down, and that is when the reward comes, when she is quiet.. when you splash her you are giving her negative attention, and she is still getting what she wants, your attention.. even though negative..

i have had dogs whine, scream, bark , howl in a crate in my house. i walk away to another room until they stop. whether its an hour , 2 hours, or shorter, the minute they stop and are quiet, treats get thrown in and praise... the worst dog i had it took 3 days for the dog to learn that making noise makes me go away, but being quiet brings me with good things...

see, a squirt bottle you can aim and shoot and not have the dog see you.. but a glass of water the dog sees you coming ..


I agree---and you're absolutely right, M.E.---attention is attention to dogs, (and even children, lol). They don't necessarily care if it's positive or negative.
DISCLAIMER:

My posts are my own opinions unless otherwise stated. They are not necessarily correct for all dogs or all owners.
a-bull
I live here
 
Posts: 2926

Postby SpiritFngrz » May 23rd, 2006, 12:48 pm

Gatsu wrote:age appropriate toys? dont say kongs cause she doesn't chew on them at all. she'll only eat what u put inside them. shes got some ropes, she likes rawhides and marrow bones... tennis balls...


What about stuffies? Satin treats her stuffed toys as either her baby or a vermin she just killed. Either way she's proud of herself.
User avatar
SpiritFngrz
I live here
 
Posts: 2711
Location: Central Mass.

Postby a-bull » May 23rd, 2006, 12:51 pm

dogcrazyjen wrote:So what would you do if you had a dog which would NOT poop on a line, was aggressing with other dogs, was not crate trained at all, you did not have a fenced yard, and you could not put him in a separate room safely?

Sometimes you have to think outside the box, because the problems are outside the norm.

BTW, I agree about not rubbing noses in poop. THAT is likely the sort of thing which caused Tess' issues.


lol . . . this is going to surprise you I'm sure, but I've owned dogs with all of the above behaviors. :)

Also, not that it matters, but I also have kids, a job, and even carpeting . . . :wink: See . . . we're not so different.

:)
DISCLAIMER:

My posts are my own opinions unless otherwise stated. They are not necessarily correct for all dogs or all owners.
a-bull
I live here
 
Posts: 2926

Postby SpiritFngrz » May 23rd, 2006, 12:52 pm

Romanwild wrote:If you are bringing him outside and just standing there, that's part of the problem. Walking always speeds the process up. Take him for a walk until he poops.


True that. Satin won't go until she's walked around a little bit. She also needs to find the best place. I think it needs to "work up"
User avatar
SpiritFngrz
I live here
 
Posts: 2711
Location: Central Mass.

Postby a-bull » May 23rd, 2006, 12:54 pm

Maryellen wrote:that was msvette abull, not me.. but i had something the same posted too...


sorry . . . I retract my credit I was giving you, lol . . .
DISCLAIMER:

My posts are my own opinions unless otherwise stated. They are not necessarily correct for all dogs or all owners.
a-bull
I live here
 
Posts: 2926

Postby Maryellen » May 23rd, 2006, 12:54 pm

hey!!@!!
Maryellen
I live here
 
Posts: 5971

Postby a-bull » May 23rd, 2006, 12:56 pm

Maryellen wrote:hey!!@!!


I knew you weren't busy---What was I thinking?? :neener:
DISCLAIMER:

My posts are my own opinions unless otherwise stated. They are not necessarily correct for all dogs or all owners.
a-bull
I live here
 
Posts: 2926

PreviousNext

Return to Training & Behavior

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot]

cron