Shaping for beginners?

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Postby pitbullmamaliz » February 22nd, 2010, 12:11 pm

Alright, either I suck at shaping or Inara is just not clicker-savvy. Or both. I was trying to shape her into going between my legs. I started by clicking any forward movement toward me. But she only got so close and then sat, staring at me. Alright then, I would click for any paw movement in the right direction. Major fail - when Inara gets frustrated or doesn't know what I want, she backs up and then sits/downs/goes onto her side, all in fast order, over and over. So there was no forward paw movement to work with. Alright then, I'll click for a glance in the right direction. Major fail. She didn't look there - she just wanted to stare at my eyes. Never thought I'd complain about that, but it was making this difficult! lol So I quit.

Inara is very much a dog who wants to be told what to do and gets frustrated if she doesn't get constant feedback. Is there something that I can try shaping that is super easy for me and might teach her to become more clicker savvy?
"Remember - every time your dog gets somewhere on a tight leash *a fairy dies and it's all your fault.* Think of the fairies." http://www.positivepetzine.com"

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Postby tiva » February 22nd, 2010, 12:38 pm

We started with a box on the floor. My first goal was to shape any sort of interaction with the box-a head turn to start. Then my goal was to shape Vanya touching the box, and eventually getting up and sitting on the box. If Vanya got stuck and just sat and stared at me, I would change my position. The nice thing about shaping interaction with a box is that most dogs will investigate something new that you stick on the floor, so you have something to click right away.
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Postby maberi » February 22nd, 2010, 12:42 pm

Which is one reason I don't like the way some of these books make people feel bad for incorporating different methods. Earl has been clicker trained since he was 3 months old so he catches onto things very quickly but he gets VERY frustrated when I shape some things with him if he can't figure out what I want. He starts throwing out every behavior he knows and starts to shut down so I have to mix things up with him and incorporate some luring, prompting or targeting at times so he has an idea of what I'm looking for.

Have you trained a go to your mat behavior? This is a little bit easier because there is a physical object for the dog to see. The behavior you are trying to teach now has an invisible location that the dog needs to find. Not to mention the dog has to go in between your legs which is VERY awkward for a dog who hasn't had any rewards in areas other than the conventional in front of owner, at owner's side, etc....


This article is a good one to get you guys started

http://www.clickersolutions.com/article ... haping.htm
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » February 22nd, 2010, 1:03 pm

Great article, Matt - thanks.

She kind of knows a go to mat behavior - if I pull out her mat she launches herself onto it, but it doesn't have a verbal cue associated with it. She just knows that when the mat is present Very Good Things happen if she's on it.

I keep reading that crossover dogs have a lot of trouble with shaping because they've been taught (whether inadvertently or not) not to do anything without being told to do it first. I think that's what I'm experiencing with Inara. She's willing to throw out a few of her basic "tricks" to see if that's what I want, but then she backs up and barks at me. She does it in class too - if I don't keep up a constant rate of reinforcement she gets annoyed and barks. She's got me trained! lol

I shouldn't be so afraid of luring - I taught her to do a lot of things like that and she's pretty solid at them. I've always believed that every dog needs to be treated as an individual, so why wouldn't that apply to luring vs. shaping as well? That being said, I do want to learn how to shape as I think it's a good skill. She did learn her "relax" pose (flat on her side) through shaping - I started with c/t for any behavior that was more relaxed than she had been: sitting vs. walking, down vs. sit, over on hip vs. upright, etc.
"Remember - every time your dog gets somewhere on a tight leash *a fairy dies and it's all your fault.* Think of the fairies." http://www.positivepetzine.com"

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http://inaradog.wordpress.com
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Postby tiva » February 22nd, 2010, 2:21 pm

maberi wrote:This article is a good one to get you guys started

http://www.clickersolutions.com/article ... haping.htm


As I was reading through that article, I kept thinking: this sure sounds a lot like Greta. Surprise!
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Postby Malli » February 22nd, 2010, 2:22 pm

can you lure her with a toy through your legs and then also mark it?
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Postby maberi » February 22nd, 2010, 2:29 pm

tiva wrote:
maberi wrote:This article is a good one to get you guys started

http://www.clickersolutions.com/article ... haping.htm


As I was reading through that article, I kept thinking: this sure sounds a lot like Greta. Surprise!



Lol

I really like her stuff :wink:
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Postby TheRedQueen » February 22nd, 2010, 3:54 pm

I'll have to get some video of *my* Inara and shaping...she's very much like your Inara...she gets frustrated VERY easily...and it takes her a while to figure out what I want. :|

When I do stuff with her, I do little tiny increments of behaviors she's already offering...to build her confidence.
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
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Postby TheRedQueen » February 22nd, 2010, 5:07 pm

Just shot some new videos of my guys playing "Elephant Games" (perch work)...and my attempts to shape Inara & Score to go between my legs. :rolleyes2:

Liz, the videos of Inara will make you feel so much better, I think. The whining this time was almost non-stop. :nono: Crazy bitch. :crazy2:
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » February 22nd, 2010, 5:15 pm

lol Can't wait to see them!
"Remember - every time your dog gets somewhere on a tight leash *a fairy dies and it's all your fault.* Think of the fairies." http://www.positivepetzine.com"

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Postby TheRedQueen » February 22nd, 2010, 7:15 pm

Here's the video of Inara this afternoon...trying to get her between my legs is the goal...at this point, I was taking anything close to my legs (nose, feet, etc) but she just kept throwing out sit, down or bow...and got VERY frustrated if I didn't want those. Her default is to move back away from me when she gets annoyed...so it made for a very difficult situation. You can see her response to the clicker coming out in the first few seconds...STARING at me intensely. ;) She doesn't "get" shaping unless it's something to play with...she likes props better (see Elephant Games)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOYDw_q2zgM
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » February 22nd, 2010, 7:21 pm

I really had no idea how similar our Inaras are - easily frustrated, back up and throw behaviors when confused, both gorgeous ( :wink: ), etc. I don't mean this in a mean way but I am glad to see one of your dogs have problems with this too. Sometimes I feel like trainers have perfect dogs and I have, well, I have Inara! lol

I am going to run the vacuum quickly and then try to set up my camera for a video to see if I can shape Inara to perch on something. :)
"Remember - every time your dog gets somewhere on a tight leash *a fairy dies and it's all your fault.* Think of the fairies." http://www.positivepetzine.com"

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Postby TheRedQueen » February 22nd, 2010, 7:31 pm

pitbullmamaliz wrote:I really had no idea how similar our Inaras are - easily frustrated, back up and throw behaviors when confused, both gorgeous ( :wink: ), etc. I don't mean this in a mean way but I am glad to see one of your dogs have problems with this too. Sometimes I feel like trainers have perfect dogs and I have, well, I have Inara! lol

I am going to run the vacuum quickly and then try to set up my camera for a video to see if I can shape Inara to perch on something. :)


I told John..."I've got to get video of our Inara so Liz will feel better!" :dance:

I understand! I always try and tell my clients...I'm not perfect and neither are my dogs! My Inara has come a long way, and it takes dog savvy people to realize that. Folks that know her from "before" are always amazed...ask Sarah what she used to be like. I just read her adoption paperwork the other day...the first thing on the list..."micro attention span". Well, I've got a lot of attention now, but she still gets frustrated easily. She's always been my project. :D btw, For those that don't know...she's HA (fear aggressive) and was 1.5 years old when I got her...a former pet store puppy that went through 3 homes and 2 fosters and was about to be euthanized for her awful behavior. She wouldn't even come near me when I first met her (I adopted her anyway!) :crazy2:

Yeah, I don't do a lot of shaping with her because it just makes her annoyed, and me too. We've had some success lately with training in the bathroom...she loves to come in with me (she comes in when I use the bathroom and when I shower), and I keep treats and a clicker in there. It's quiet, and she's happy in there. If she's frustrated, I just grab a book and read until she chills. No pressure...and that works for her. We've got a cute little head bob now...from the bathroom training...more than we've ever been able to do anywhere else.
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » February 22nd, 2010, 7:51 pm

We did it! In 4 minutes I shaped Inara to stand with her front legs on a perch!!! I'm so excited! The video is uploading to Youtube now. :dance:
"Remember - every time your dog gets somewhere on a tight leash *a fairy dies and it's all your fault.* Think of the fairies." http://www.positivepetzine.com"

http://www.pitbullzen.com
http://inaradog.wordpress.com
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Postby TheRedQueen » February 22nd, 2010, 7:53 pm

pitbullmamaliz wrote:We did it! In 4 minutes I shaped Inara to stand with her front legs on a perch!!! I'm so excited! The video is uploading to Youtube now. :dance:


:confetti:

Can't wait to see! *pats Liz on back* Well done! Inaras can be shaped!
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » February 22nd, 2010, 8:26 pm

Maybe I'll get it uploaded. Photobucket, Youtube and FB are all lollygagging around and not uploading it. >(
"Remember - every time your dog gets somewhere on a tight leash *a fairy dies and it's all your fault.* Think of the fairies." http://www.positivepetzine.com"

http://www.pitbullzen.com
http://inaradog.wordpress.com
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Postby tiva » February 22nd, 2010, 9:09 pm

Liz, I trim mine into smaller bits so youtube will upload them quickly.

Here are two short clips that we could call "shaping lite". Or cheating. Or, to be polite, using targeting to get desired behaviors.
First, here's Vanya following the target stick to learn to spin around my leg. I left the real target stick up north, so he's using our soup spoon instead.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diquj23o3tU&feature=youtube_gdata

Then we played: scoot through my legs and dive into a down, using the target. The target stick went skidding down the hall, so I guess that's one downside of targeting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOG05hxvqfw&feature=youtube_gdata

I took a bunch more video, but my rear end is too prominently displayed to show in public.
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » February 22nd, 2010, 9:34 pm

"Remember - every time your dog gets somewhere on a tight leash *a fairy dies and it's all your fault.* Think of the fairies." http://www.positivepetzine.com"

http://www.pitbullzen.com
http://inaradog.wordpress.com
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » February 22nd, 2010, 9:47 pm

Nancy, you're silly! Those vids are great! Vanya really seems eager to learn. :)
"Remember - every time your dog gets somewhere on a tight leash *a fairy dies and it's all your fault.* Think of the fairies." http://www.positivepetzine.com"

http://www.pitbullzen.com
http://inaradog.wordpress.com
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Postby TheRedQueen » February 22nd, 2010, 9:53 pm

pitbullmamaliz wrote:FINALLY!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI2qJAdqJTc


She looks like a PRO! 8) Fantastic! I love seeing that light bulb go off!
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
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