Meet our new foster boy!

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Postby madremissy » October 26th, 2009, 1:11 am

I am sorry for posting so much but I just wanted to add another thing.

I am not scared of them if a scuffle breaks out. Ya'll have taught me what to do and I have had to use it before when they got into their scuffles before. I go for the closet collar first (which is usually Kinzyl) and pull up. That has always worked in each case. Gotty does back down and stop and has never kept coming after her.

I know I have the resources in my head to do it. I am not hesitant for myself. I just don't want anything to mess up their little heads. Well in Gotty's case, his big head. :rolleyes2:

I am going to say that it is Gotty being bratty. Maybe I am wrong but this is the only bad behavior he has with the high priority things. I keep those things put up when they are out together. They do have a blanket that they play tug of war with on the porch. I have also noticed that Kinzyl has corrected Gotty when he has gotten too rough in play and Gotty has done the same with Kinzyl. The other night the little booger saw my loading kongs and putting them in the freezer. He then went in there a little while later and sat by the fridge. :nono:

Just thought I would put down as much information as I can so it helps every one better understand.
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Postby DemoDick » October 26th, 2009, 1:30 am

I just saw your thread and am heading to bed. I'll add to the discussion tomorrow. No need to apologize for giving "too much" information, as there isn't such a thing in this situation. The more info you provide the better.

As for not wanting to crate and rotate...no one wants to. I certainly don't. It's very inconvenient. Most of us who come to this strategy do so out of necessity. From what you've written so far, I'm not sure you're at that point yet, though you should be mentally prepared just in case.

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Postby mnp13 » October 26th, 2009, 11:49 am

Ok, I know there's a lot of things that I "should" know, (and probably do already) - but it's easiest to have everything all in the same place especially since someone may reference this thread in the future and not have all of the background on all of the dogs involved, so - can you give for all three dogs: approximate birthdate, age you got them, any training, age neutured, breed In the meantime, I'll look at some of the stuff already posted:

Gotty goes right to the kennel lays down and goes to sleep. Kinzyl and Sammy are in bed with me. No problems. My question is, Should this be the norm or how should I try to see if they can both coexist.

There is nothing wrong with having one dog sleep in a crate and the other two sleep loose. The hardest part about having dogs that need a little more supervision out at night is that it is night. If there is any sort of spat, not only do you have to wake up but you have to orient to the problem, etc, and that takes time. If you have a larger crate, or have a room that you can use for him that he can’t get into anything that’s good too.

So please don't flame me when I say I am also looking at a rescue that could help me find Gotty a loving home where he can receive all the attention he deserves.

Gotty isn’t your dog, he is your son’s dog. Your son left him with you – it’s not like you’re just “dumping the dog.” There will be no flaming.

Demo and Michelle, I am very interested in your thoughts. I know that my two are no where near trained like yours but maybe you could give me some pointers on how to start slowly. I just keep picturing their Christmas picture in my head and I would love to have Kinzyl and Gotty lay in the house next to each other like that.

That’s just obedience. Like we’ve said, we could probably have the boys out together, but we choose not to. It would take a lot of work, constant supervision, and if/when they ended up going after each other it would be ugly – and Ruby would likely get involved as well. We’ve talked about using tethering when they are supervised but that’s a different discussion.

As for starting slowly, I’d remove all toys, food, and anything else obvious that they might decide to argue over. Of course, they might decide to get into it over air, but you can’t stop that. When they behave with nothing around, you can try having “boring” stuff around.

I am not scared of them if a scuffle breaks out. Ya'll have taught me what to do and I have had to use it before when they got into their scuffles before. I go for the closet collar first (which is usually Kinzyl) and pull up. That has always worked in each case. Gotty does back down and stop and has never kept coming after her.

I am very glad that you are not scared of them and have handled the problems calmly so far. However, be aware that a fight with “intent” from either of them will not stop if you yell or grab on to one collar. I know you already know it, I just needed to say it ;)

They do have a blanket that they play tug of war with on the porch.

I’d put that up for now.
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Postby airwalk » October 26th, 2009, 12:30 pm

Without having met the dogs Missy, I can say that unless Gotty decides to be a complete knothead, you will probably get farther faster if he is a part of the family and every day life and routine than if he were upstairs by himself.

However, something Erin talked to me about with my ADD Poodle, remember to watch his stimulation level. Magic cannot self control his stimulation level (at least he hasn't been able to to date). So he jacks way up and stays there. When I started controlling what he did and how stimulated he gets he doesn't jack as high and stays at a lower level; which makes him infintely more manageable. For instance, I used to bring Magic to work almost every day and then spent the entire day correcting him for barking and acting out. Erin suggested I not bring him every day to reduce the stimulation level and viola...a much easier to live with dog.
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Postby katiek0417 » October 26th, 2009, 12:34 pm

I think everyone is giving really good advice here...the only thing that I can add (and it may have been said, already, and I forgot)...when they are together, just supervise them...you'd be surprised how quickly something could escalate...not saying it will...but it could, and if you can prevent that by nipping it in the bud...
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Postby madremissy » October 26th, 2009, 12:46 pm

Ok, I know there's a lot of things that I "should" know, (and probably do already) - but it's easiest to have everything all in the same place especially since someone may reference this thread in the future and not have all of the background on all of the dogs involved, so - can you give for all three dogs: approximate birthdate, age you got them, any training, age neutured, breed In the meantime, I'll look at some of the stuff already posted:


Sammy: Shih tzu DOB 2/8/2002 neutered 2002 Came home when he was 8 weeks old. No Training :oops: He is just Sammy, he is a good dog and my baby. I have been working with him the past year to sit and wait for his food. He can do that. He comes when called. He plays with Kinzyl and Gotty like he is one of them and they play with him very well. He does have a thing he does when they play, he runs after and barks. Kinzyl just thinks it is a game.

Gotty: American Bully DOB 3/30/2006 neutered 2008 Came home at 6 weeks old. Yes, I know should have been 8 but the breeder kicked them out at 6. He went everywhere with the kids, well socialized, loved people and ALL other dogs. He did go to a trainer for a bit but it was very bad negative training. Josh did not feel comfortable with the way these people were so we stopped. He was showed as a puppy in a AKC show and won his puppy class. He did well on the lead in the rind but after that Josh really wasn't interested in pursuing confirmation. He had sit, down, shake, stay mastered for a long time. He knows what kennel means and goes straight to it. His recall is very good. He sits and waits for his food and eats when I say OK. Along came a baby and then Josh started working out of town. For the past year and a half he has kinda been just a dog. I was usually the one to take him out and play fetch in the yard. He was very content laying around upstairs with Brit and the baby.

In the past couple of days I have taught him to sit when leashed, sit before he goes outside. I have been walking him and practicing sit when I say or as another car comes by. I have also been working on his basic commands again. He is very hardheaded little dude but will do anything for a treat. Very food driven. Ball driven to. He gets where he will drool and shake and wimper while sitting and waiting.

When he was younger his prey drive was so so. He really didn't have any interest in birds, squirrels or rabbits. Now it is through the roof. That is why on walks I am practicing the sit, stay and get his attention when a squirrel or he sees another animal. When he was younger he did have prong but it was not used properly. He has a flat no buckle style collar and I am trying to use positive reinforcement for the walking. Stop when he starts to pull, stop and get his attention with sit and stay when he sees a squirrel or another animal.

He hasn't been around any other dogs except mine for the last 1 1/2 years except my moms dog Tassy but that was just outside with her leashed and him going potty and playing ball. He really didn't have any interest in her.

Kinzyl: American Bully DOB 3/30/2006 They are siblings from same litter. Spayed 2005 We went and got her at 6 months old. She was very skiddish and timid. Josh had witnessed before some abuse from the breeder and said she needed a home. I say abuse but the breeder thought that hitting her to sit, not jump up and down was acceptable. She was an outside dog in a huge kennel. We built her her own huge kennel here but she didn't want any part of that and kept escaping. She would come straight to the front covered porch every time. We then decided that she liked it better so we put gates up and that was her area for a while. At that time I had 3 little dogs in the house and it just wasn't feasible. Also at that time, we were very naive and assumed she would be an outside dog. Not to run loose but to sleep outside. She was very comfortable and had her own blankets, a homemade dog house and plenty of toys. Gotty would come from downstairs and they played all the time together.
That is about the time I joined here. In the meantime I had lost my other two senior dogs to old age and heart failure. It became colder and colder and I started bringing her in the house. Well from then on she was a permanent house dog.
I started working with her with a lot of postitive reinforcement and gained her trust. She knows many commands but still has a very high prey drive so I don't let her offleash or off lead at anytime. There is the occassion when the water hose and bubbles are more appealing than running off and she is off then. We play until she gets tired and then straight back on the porch. She loves to walk and is very good at sitting when I stop, sitting without a command when leash/lead is put on or taken off. So in other words no formal training besides me.

There is nothing wrong with having one dog sleep in a crate and the other two sleep loose. The hardest part about having dogs that need a little more supervision out at night is that it is night. If there is any sort of spat, not only do you have to wake up but you have to orient to the problem, etc, and that takes time. If you have a larger crate, or have a room that you can use for him that he can’t get into anything that’s good too.


At night, the bedroom door is shut. So nobody has free reign of the house. The kennel/crate is huge. He looks like a little ball in there so he has plenty of room. When it is his time in the room by himself he is out. He can see out the window and he usually lays at the end of the bed looking out. When I leave the house I do kennel him and shut the door. The other two have the house.

As for starting slowly, I’d remove all toys, food, and anything else obvious that they might decide to argue over. Of course, they might decide to get into it over air, but you can’t stop that. When they behave with nothing around, you can try having “boring” stuff around.


I make sure that everything is put away. I recently learned that it can't be just up on the counter, it has to be out of view and they can't see where I put it.
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Postby katiek0417 » October 26th, 2009, 12:47 pm

madremissy wrote:
I make sure that everything is put away. I recently learned that it can't be just up on the counter, it has to be out of view and they can't see where I put it.


Exactly...if they're anything like my dogs, if they see you put it away, they'll sit there and obsess over it (and stare at that location)...so put it away when they're somewhere else...
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Postby madremissy » October 26th, 2009, 12:54 pm

airwalk wrote:Without having met the dogs Missy, I can say that unless Gotty decides to be a complete knothead, you will probably get farther faster if he is a part of the family and every day life and routine than if he were upstairs by himself.

However, something Erin talked to me about with my ADD Poodle, remember to watch his stimulation level. Magic cannot self control his stimulation level (at least he hasn't been able to to date). So he jacks way up and stays there. When I started controlling what he did and how stimulated he gets he doesn't jack as high and stays at a lower level; which makes him infintely more manageable. For instance, I used to bring Magic to work almost every day and then spent the entire day correcting him for barking and acting out. Erin suggested I not bring him every day to reduce the stimulation level and viola...a much easier to live with dog.


He is no longer upstairs. He came down the day Brit left for Atlanta. Which has been since Friday.

It seems just attention stimulates him. He is just a happy boy. This morning he was whining and I took him out at 6:00am . Travis was leaving for work and when he came back in he had to wiggle his little butt and say good morning. Travis gave him some butt scratches and me a kiss. When I told him to go back to bedroom and kennel, he went straight in there. Kinzyl and Sammy were in the bed asleep and he walked right past went straight in and nobody ever moved.
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Postby mnp13 » October 26th, 2009, 1:46 pm

madremissy wrote:Sammy: Shih tzu DOB 2/8/2002 neutered 2002 Came home when he was 8 weeks old. No Training :oops: He is just Sammy, he is a good dog and my baby. I have been working with him the past year to sit and wait for his food. He can do that. He comes when called. He plays with Kinzyl and Gotty like he is one of them and they play with him very well. He does have a thing he does when they play, he runs after and barks. Kinzyl just thinks it is a game.

Ok, let's start there...

Boot camp time for Sammy. You can't expect any more from the Pit Bulls than you expect from Sammy. At some point, "Sammy chasing and being annoying" may not seem like "just a game" to one of the others if they are already keyed up about something. They may not get snappy with Sammy, but they may decide to get snappy with each other. I'm not saying he's not a good dog, but he has to be held to the same standard. Sorry Sammy!

In the past couple of days I have taught him to sit when leashed, sit before he goes outside. I have been walking him and practicing sit when I say or as another car comes by. I have also been working on his basic commands again. He is very hardheaded little dude but will do anything for a treat. Very food driven. Ball driven to. He gets where he will drool and shake and wimper while sitting and waiting.

Lots of food drive can be a very good thing, you'll be able to use that to your advantage in training.

When he was younger he did have prong but it was not used properly. He has a flat no buckle style collar and I am trying to use positive reinforcement for the walking. Stop when he starts to pull, stop and get his attention with sit and stay when he sees a squirrel or another animal.

Get a good quality collar with a buckle. If he's a puller, in my opinion, he should not have a collar without a buckle on it.
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Postby madremissy » October 26th, 2009, 2:04 pm

Ok, what kind of boot camp do I set up for this little sh*t. Do I put a drag leash on him??? Help. Seriously. I know I need help but I need steps... :oops: When they both here something they go running to the window in the kitchen. He is a barker. Working on that to but haven't found anything that works yet. Still contimplating the cintronilla collar.

Ok, food is a good motivator. What do I do and how do I use it for my needs for doing what they need to do in the house? Seems the food is what gets him so hyped up around her.

Sorry I am being so difficult. I just need someone to come down here and visit. :dance: Furnished apartment upstairs is available. :D :wink:

I should have said his collar is a 1 1/2 inch Collarmania which has the big D ring on it. Kinzyl has the same thing. It is not buckle. The kind that slides over his head and then tightened so I don't have to worry about them slipping out. I thought about martingale for him but I need something that can stay on all the time when they are together. Something to grab onto and choke them off if needed. He is much better at not pulling. We are steadily working on that. :D He knows right now we don't go anywhere if he pulls. We stop and start alot but yesterday he was much better.
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Postby TheRedQueen » October 26th, 2009, 3:29 pm

Really quick here...a book recommendation for ya:

Feeling Outnumbered by Dr. Patricia McConnell...not a long book, and I think it'll help!

http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/produc ... utnumbered

:D
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Postby madremissy » October 26th, 2009, 7:21 pm

TheRedQueen wrote:Really quick here...a book recommendation for ya:

Feeling Outnumbered by Dr. Patricia McConnell...not a long book, and I think it'll help!

http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/produc ... utnumbered

:D


Thanks Erin, I just went over that whole website. Really good tips and I am going to order some of those books. Thank you.

Thanks to everyone for their input, ideas and especially support. I was kinda overwhelmed there for a bit. Once again, I have to tell myself to slow down. :oops: One thing at a time. Things are not going to happen over night but things are going well. :) I am getting used to our doggie shuffle routine and I think they are to. I also have to give Gotty time to realize that he is not going back upstairs and make him feel comfortable down here. This is a big adjustment for him. I think that for now we will let everyone get used to the idea of him just being in the house and changing areas while one is sitting and waiting or on the couch and the other is going to the room or outside.

Now as for Sammy, Michelle I sat down and had a talk with him. He is not very pleased but he said he would try very hard as long as you tell his slow learning Mama how to handle this. :wave2: :wink:
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Postby TheRedQueen » October 26th, 2009, 7:37 pm

I'm gonna stir the pot a bit, sorry! I'm wondering what the reasoning behind this is, Michelle...

Boot camp time for Sammy. You can't expect any more from the Pit Bulls than you expect from Sammy. At some point, "Sammy chasing and being annoying" may not seem like "just a game" to one of the others if they are already keyed up about something. They may not get snappy with Sammy, but they may decide to get snappy with each other. I'm not saying he's not a good dog, but he has to be held to the same standard. Sorry Sammy!


I agree that some manners training/obedience can never HURT...but I don't agree that all the dogs have to be held to the same standard. If it's okay for some dogs to have different rules about where they sleep and are allowed to be in the house, why do they have to be trained to the same degree?

I also agree that maybe keeping the "chasing and being annoying" needs to be stopped or curtailed. But that can just be a management arrangement...perhaps Sammy can play with Kinzyl only, but not with Gotty around, or something like that. I don't know that Sammy needs more training to help with this. :|

My gang has different standards of training and I have different expectations of each of them, depending on many things. For instance: Xander and Ripley don't have to sit to go outside (medical, age and basic good manners on their part anyway) or for dinner, etc. The others all have to sit to earn outside privileges and dinner. Ripley gets away with more than he used to, now that he's older and has arthritis...it's hard for him to do some things now. Inara has to not only sit, but sometimes maintain a sit while others go outside, because of her tendency to make herself MORE crazy when the others are moving. Just depends on the situation at the time...and who is going out with her at times.

Just one example above...but my guys do have different levels of training and such...and I don't hold them all to the same standard.
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Postby DemoDick » October 26th, 2009, 8:11 pm

TheRedQueen wrote:I'm gonna stir the pot a bit, sorry! I'm wondering what the reasoning behind this is, Michelle...

Boot camp time for Sammy. You can't expect any more from the Pit Bulls than you expect from Sammy. At some point, "Sammy chasing and being annoying" may not seem like "just a game" to one of the others if they are already keyed up about something. They may not get snappy with Sammy, but they may decide to get snappy with each other. I'm not saying he's not a good dog, but he has to be held to the same standard. Sorry Sammy!


I agree that some manners training/obedience can never HURT...but I don't agree that all the dogs have to be held to the same standard. If it's okay for some dogs to have different rules about where they sleep and are allowed to be in the house, why do they have to be trained to the same degree?


I think I know where Michelle's head is at here, though I have been known to misinterpret her communication before. :) When an owner of multiple dogs has to transition their household from a casual one in which dogs get free reign to a more structured environment, it is usually easier for the owner to just tighten everyone up equally at first instead of trying to figure out which rules apply to which dog in different situations. Also, when the general expectation of behavior is and always has been relatively low, it can be difficult to maintain consistency of expectations for different dogs as the transition occurs, and scraps can break out as a result. It's kind of like playing favorites with kids...they tend to take it out on each other.

As a person gains a more complete understanding of behavior they will usually figure out what they can "get away with" with regards to managing a multiple dog household in which different dogs have different rules. It's not hard for you because you have a solid training background and a shit-ton of dogs in and out of your house. Few people have that level of experience.

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Postby madremissy » October 26th, 2009, 8:22 pm

Let me add this about Sammy. I am not letting him get in the middle of the two. When everyone is calm and in a relaxing mood on the porch, he is allowed outside to sit and watch the world go by. He is usually in my lap while I am rocking or under the table surveying his domain. :rolleyes2: As soon as the Kinzyl and Gotty decide they want to play I put him inside. If Gotty is inside and Kinzyl is out I have let Sammy and Gotty play a little. I don't let Sammy act like an idiot (Travis's favorite word to call him) to them at the same time. :) I am trying to control as much craziness as possible. :rolleyes2:

Let me also add this. I would LOVE to get Sammy to stop barking whenever Kinzyl gets the zoomies because it is annoying. Kinzyl thinks it is time for her to just get crazier. :crazy2:

Right now. Kinzyl and Sammy are at my feet. The only one I hear playing is Sammy with his little play grow trying to get kinzyl's feet. She is laying on her side just playing footsies with him. Sammy is the loud one with the two of them play.

As for holding him to the same standards. :confused: I don't make him sit before he gets leashed or sit before he comes back in. He just kinda stands there anyway. I might be misunderstanding the whole concept on this though. :|

Exactly what Demo said.
Few people have that level of experience.
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Postby Michael » October 26th, 2009, 9:03 pm

I'm just gonna give some quick thoughts here... Gotty looks like a happy guy.

I have lived in muliple large dog households for the past 14 years or so. Seen many fights and scuffles and showdowns. I am of the opinion that crating and barriers only exacerbate the problem. They make it a ticking time bomb. Eventually the issue has to be dealt with. However, not everyone is capable of breaking up a dog fight between strong dogs if one occurs, so it's reasonable to be afraid and rely on cages and barriers.

That's okay for a time, but is not a long term solution.

But here's the thing. A family who walks together and runs together and plays together becomes a pack and will be much less likely to fight in the house and have the need to be separated in the house.

With fighting dogs, get them to get along on walks, *outside* the house first. Preferably long walks. This is where they become a pack. On the hunt. And to a dog, a walk is a hunt. The more you segregate dogs, the less familiar they are with each other, and the more testy they will be if they come in contact.

That being said, you also have to be ready and have the tools ready to break up fights and you should expect them to occur if you decide to move away from the segregation angle. I use basketballs, tennis rackets (I like sports equipment!). But it's not so much breaking up fights that is important. What is important is breaking up the thoughts which lead to fighting.

So I'm just going to give you one step for starters. More walks or yard play together with the antagonistic dogs.



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Postby DemoDick » October 26th, 2009, 9:21 pm

dogtvcom wrote:I'm just gonna give some quick thoughts here... Gotty looks like a happy guy.

I have lived in muliple large dog households for the past 14 years or so. Seen many fights and scuffles and showdowns. I am of the opinion that crating and barriers only exacerbate the problem. They make it a ticking time bomb. Eventually the issue has to be dealt with. However, not everyone is capable of breaking up a dog fight between strong dogs if one occurs, so it's reasonable to be afraid and rely on cages and barriers.

That's okay for a time, but is not a long term solution.

But here's the thing. A family who walks together and runs together and plays together becomes a pack and will be much less likely to fight in the house and have the need to be separated in the house.

With fighting dogs, get them to get along on walks, *outside* the house first. Preferably long walks. This is where they become a pack. On the hunt. And to a dog, a walk is a hunt. The more you segregate dogs, the less familiar they are with each other, and the more testy they will be if they come in contact.

That being said, you also have to be ready and have the tools ready to break up fights and you should expect them to occur if you decide to move away from the segregation angle. I use basketballs, tennis rackets (I like sports equipment!). But it's not so much breaking up fights that is important. What is important is breaking up the thoughts which lead to fighting.

So I'm just going to give you one step for starters. More walks or yard play together with the antagonistic dogs.



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This is some of the most dangerous and wrong-headed advice I have ever seen on this forum.

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Postby madremissy » October 26th, 2009, 9:26 pm

Gotty is a happy boy. Thank you. :D

So I'm just going to give you one step for starters. More walks or yard play together with the antagonistic dogs.


I am only going to address this. Thank you for your opinion but where I live (which is in the middle of nowhere USA) I can not walk them both at the same time. I have two many off leash dogs, wild animals and distractions for me to worry about. I am more comfortable walking them one at a time. When I have someone else here they do get walked together and are fine.

They can not get yard time together unless Kinzyl is on lead which does happen sometimes but not alot.
I give Gotty plenty of yard time with fetch and his spring pole. I have a very large porch that they play together on. Even though it is like a herd of elephants romping around. :elephant:
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madremissy
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Postby TheRedQueen » October 26th, 2009, 9:30 pm

With fighting dogs, get them to get along on walks, *outside* the house first. Preferably long walks. This is where they become a pack. On the hunt. And to a dog, a walk is a hunt. The more you segregate dogs, the less familiar they are with each other, and the more testy they will be if they come in contact.


My guys (not pit bulls) all live out in the house and yard together...I don't have to crate and rotate my dogs. However, even with living, eating, sleeping together...they still can be testy and cranky with each other. lol Sawyer and Inara do NOT play together, sleep near each other, and snark at each other at least once a week. The others all get along fine...but these two get snippy when in close contact. I crated them next to each other at flyball last Friday, and they started cage fighting... :rolleyes2: Seriously guys?

We're nowhere near having to crate/rotate...but they're never left alone together...(which is easy because Sawyer goes everywhere with John, being a Service Dog)...things just chug along okay. But just because they're in a "pack" together, does not make them happy about it.
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
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Postby mnp13 » October 26th, 2009, 9:43 pm

DemoDick wrote:I think I know where Michelle's head is at here, though I have been known to misinterpret her communication before. :) When an owner of multiple dogs has to transition their household from a casual one in which dogs get free reign to a more structured environment, it is usually easier for the owner to just tighten everyone up equally at first instead of trying to figure out which rules apply to which dog in different situations. Also, when the general expectation of behavior is and always has been relatively low, it can be difficult to maintain consistency of expectations for different dogs as the transition occurs, and scraps can break out as a result. It's kind of like playing favorites with kids...they tend to take it out on each other.

That's about it. Missy is starting to enter unfamiliar territory with the dogs and will have to tighten up obedience and house routines for a while. It's hard to get things ship-shape with two dogs and not the third and at some point you "forget" which one you are dealing with and have the wrong expectation.

Erin, I understand what you are saying about your dogs, but like Demo said, it's second nature for you. When we first put our three together in this house it took some adjustment time - and things were strict for all of them, yes, even Ruby. :wink: After two years it's second nature, and even when there is an extra dog or two in the house we can handle our dogs as usual and handle the extra(s) differently. But at the beginning it's not the same.

madremissy wrote:I should have said his collar is a 1 1/2 inch Collarmania which has the big D ring on it. Kinzyl has the same thing. It is not buckle. The kind that slides over his head and then tightened so I don't have to worry about them slipping out.

Please don't misunderstand, I do not think that Collarmania collars are not high quality. Quite the opposite! I think they are well made, and I like them, however, I am not a big fan of slide-only collars for dogs that are pullers unless they have secondary fasteners in addition to the slide. Personal preference.

madremissy wrote:Working on that to but haven't found anything that works yet. Still contimplating the cintronilla collar.

I fixed that with ours using self corrections and rewards for recalls. Erin might have other ideas.
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