Specifically about Pit Bulls...

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Postby plebayo » October 17th, 2009, 11:01 pm

I agree with a lot being said here, tons of good advice.

However, pack dynamics changing or not, it is not okay for Faust to constantly pick on Sepp for no reason at all. Pushing him off of any bed randomly is not okay, if Sepp was on Faust's bed, then I could see it, but any bed? He shouldn't be out for Sepp all the time, just because. That has nothing to do with becoming "number 1" because it doesn't sound like Sepp challenges Faust's authority at all. I think you need to support Faust's leadership in feeding him first, letting him out first, that sort of thing, however I would step in when he is purposefully picking on Sepp for no reason.

I think the sleeping in the bed thing should stop for both of them, because Sepp in the long run is just going to be punished by Faust because Faust feels that he belongs on the bed, not Sepp.

I think all you really can do is play favorite and make Faust feel comfortable that his position in the house isn't at risk, and even though I am not a fan of crate and rotate I think it's something that should be considered because they only have to get into it once really bad, and your co-exist theory goes out the window entirely. This isn't just Pit Bulls, it's dog's in general. Most of the time dogs who get into a fight can get over it, but to me this whole thing sounds like you might be leading up to "the big one".

I have seen some "negative reinforcement" training which has allowed DA dogs to live together, but there aren't many people who want to go to those lengths to make their dogs coexist, which is understandable.
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Postby mnp13 » October 17th, 2009, 11:30 pm

amazincc wrote:I have several identical dog beds all over the house, but Faust only wants to sleep in the one Sepp is in. When Sepp moves to another one - so does Faust. Sometimes he will only sit and stare at Sepp for a while, sometiomes he will get physical or even growl very quietly... but Sepp always ends up moving... and this can go on for hours. I'm not cool w/that... same as I wouldn't let one of my kids pick on one another for no reason. I think, personally, there is a big difference between sorting out pack dynamics and being an ass... am I wrong?

No, I don't think you're wrong. This sounds like flat out bullying and I would put a stop to it. He's pushing him around just to "show him who's boss." Yes, that has to do with pack order, but there is a point where it can be stopped in my opinion.

Klopfer wrote:I think dogs will not know the difference between "his bed", "her bed", "your bed" or "my bed".

I would disagree. They know which crate is "theirs" and Ruby knows which chair is "hers" when you say "your bed."

Oh, and Michelle... did the long lead this morning, and after flipping himself for the third time Faust decided it was better to come when called instead of trying to barrel through the fence and ignore me. :D

:D :D :D
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Postby BigDogBuford » October 18th, 2009, 1:53 am

I agree that Faust is being a dick. A 'come to Jesus' moment may be in his future.

Buford really doesn't like strange dogs. When I first got him, he would lure them in and then bite them. Now, he knows that he can't act like an asshole, but also that I won't expect him to play with dogs he doesn't know. As long as he ignores them, I'm ok with that. He also knows that when I bring new dogs into the house, he needs to co-exist peacefully with them. Again, I don't expect him to play or enjoy being with the other dog but he does need to let them pass by him without him biting them, etc. I *also* don't allow any other dogs to push Big B's buttons....they need to be respectful and if they're not then I don't allow any interaction at all.
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Postby Malli » October 18th, 2009, 3:09 am

yeah, if I were in Christine's place I wouldn't let that go on. (not saying that I get the impression you have let it go on Christine :) )

Do we agree that the true "head boss dog" (I won't use the term alpha because it has so much controversy with it) doesn't get petty about his authority?

Fine, Faust kicks Seppel out of a bed once; but again and again and again? :nono: What a little turd!

Its like my mum's dog, growling at Oscar over my mum - what a shit! She can tell him off if he's getting out of hand or to get out of her space but that is over the little line I have in my head on what is ok and what is not.

It kind of sounds to me like he is doing some hard "testing the waters" to figure out where he fits in :| You know, like puppy "lets see what I can get away with, oh! This is fun!"
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Postby BullyLady » October 18th, 2009, 2:22 pm

Malli wrote:Fine, Faust kicks Seppel out of a bed once; but again and again and again? :nono: What a little turd!


I agree, it's a little different than what I first thought she was describing.
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Postby Marinepits » October 18th, 2009, 2:25 pm

BullyLady wrote:
Malli wrote:Fine, Faust kicks Seppel out of a bed once; but again and again and again? :nono: What a little turd!


I agree, it's a little different than what I first thought she was describing.


Ditto. Faust needs a boot in the ass, LOL.
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Postby Malli » October 18th, 2009, 5:42 pm

So, the concensus is, poor Seppel!! :nono: :lol3:
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Postby airwalk » October 18th, 2009, 11:14 pm

Christine, I know I don't have bullies...but I agree that Faust is being a snot. We are dealing with the brat snotty behavior with Doogie right now..you know..the aren't I cute, so i can get away with anything including being totally obnoxious??? Yep that nonsense.

Sounds to me like Sepp is being highly tolerant of a snot pup and Daisy has figured out to be less so, so Faust tests Sepp far more than Daisy.

I agree with Jeanine and Michelle, Sepp needs a bit of a coming to Jesus moment and YAY for self correction.
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Postby amazincc » October 19th, 2009, 10:48 am

Well... Faust had a "come to Jesus" moment w/another dog yesterday. My tree guy came over to check on the plants, and he brought his HUGE dog w/him (I think she's a mix between a buffalo and a german shepard - she easily weights 150 pounds :shock: )... appropriate intros were made, and her, Daisy and Sepp had a great play session. After a while I called my two in and took Faust out, on a long lead. Instant growling/barking/hackles up/lunging... the other dog ignored him until he calmed down (about 10 minutes or so). Faust finally wanted to play... but on his terms. He attached himself to her tail, her ears, and her neck, while chasing her around the yard (still on a long lead). Lots of "play"-growling and shaking, while the other dog warned him several times by growling back. When he finally jumped on her and tried to hump her head she let out a roar and pinned him down... he got very snarky, but she just held him down and gripped his head in her mouth while putting her weight on him and growling back.
Once Faust realized that he couldn't move he started screaming, and I think he peed a little... :giggle:
She let him go, and he started licking her mouth and wagged his tail... issue resolved. :D
I brought him back in - and he promptly bulldozed into Daisy and tried to get into her bed, but she wasn't having it. More squealing, and peeing on the floor. :rolleyes2:
The rest of the day went great... Faust was very respectful of everyone elses space and he didn't bother Sepp once. We'll see how long that lasts.
I am thinking of letting Sepp "handle" the next dispute on his own. He is a very easy-going guy and I trust him to act appropriately - what do you guys think?
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Postby Malli » October 19th, 2009, 1:00 pm

I just wonder how good Seppel's dog skills are?

It sounds like the tree guy's dog was very appropriate.

I think it might be pertinent now to point out the silver lining :) At least Faust does not appear to be short on understanding dog body language. Been there, done that (well I suppose you have too :)).
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Postby mnp13 » October 19th, 2009, 1:52 pm

Honestly? I'd call the tree guy for a few more 'play' dates. My old neighbors had a puppy that was dumped at the shelter at 5 weeks old and he had zero manners with other dogs. We used Ruby for the same thing with him. He was rude until she let him have it, then they were fine. It took a while, but he finally learned to behave around her.

Faust might just need to be reminded of his manners, don't got overly hopeful of course - Inara is and Ruby are a good example of that! but it might help a bit.
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Postby airwalk » October 19th, 2009, 1:53 pm

I always, whenever we can safely do so, prefer to let the dogs do the manners teaching - so yep as long as you are okay with busting them up if it tips a bit...I would let Sepp handle the lessons himself.

I am doing that right now with Scooter and Doogie. Doogie is getting to the 6 month, let me be a pushy little brat that wants anything and everything I want when I want it regardless of whether you have it or not, stage...oh and the I want to play therefore you must want to play too even if you are soundly sleeping...stage. Scooter was very tolerant up to just lately. Lately, he is correcting Doog at a much higher level than ever before and Doogie has had to reassess his position a bit.

I have let Magic correct him and Magic is far less tolerant of the bratty behavior - but doesn't over correct and it has been interesting watching Doog learn to adjust his behavior patterns.

Sounds like your tree guy's big girl gave him an "oh crap" moment and then Daisy followed it up with her own - good for them and probably will be very good for little Faust.
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » October 19th, 2009, 2:01 pm

mnp13 wrote:don't got overly hopeful of course - Inara is and Ruby are a good example of that! but it might help a bit.


Why you always gotta hate on my dog and use her as an example of a rude, oblivious dog???

Oh, wait. She is the perfect example of that! :giggle: I'm pretty sure even Ruby has given up on teaching her manners. Now she just attacks my poor innocent dog if treats are left out. :wink:
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Postby mnp13 » October 19th, 2009, 3:08 pm

pitbullmamaliz wrote:
mnp13 wrote:don't got overly hopeful of course - Inara is and Ruby are a good example of that! but it might help a bit.


Why you always gotta hate on my dog and use her as an example of a rude, oblivious dog???

Oh, wait. She is the perfect example of that! :giggle:

lol

Actually, now that you bring it up, we have the full range at our house!

Connor - who thinks rude and oblivious is the best playmate in the entire world

Ruby - who thinks rude and oblivious needs to get the hell out of her face and off her chair, but will play when she and if she damn well pleases

Riggs - who thinks rude and oblivious makes a good squeeky toy


Now she just attacks my poor innocent dog if treats are left out. :wink:

uh... no. Ruby stole those treats fair and square, and was peacefully eating them upstairs in the hallway. Your "poor innocent dog" thought she would share in the bounty, there's "Ruby the bitch" and then there's ''Ruby the BITCH," the latter definitely came out.

Of course, Score sure set her back a notch in the kitchen! lmao
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » October 19th, 2009, 3:15 pm

mnp13 wrote:Of course, Score sure set her back a notch in the kitchen!


Shocked the hell out of all of us! lmao
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Postby TheRedQueen » October 19th, 2009, 6:05 pm

pitbullmamaliz wrote:
mnp13 wrote:Of course, Score sure set her back a notch in the kitchen!


Shocked the hell out of all of us! lmao


Yeah, scared the hell out of him too...he's a a lover, not a fighter...guess it comes from having a clicker-training hippie for a mom. 8) He sure skedaddled out of the kitchen after "telling Ruby what was what". :giggle:
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Postby TinaMartin » October 21st, 2009, 11:30 am

TheRedQueen wrote:Yeah, scared the hell out of him too...he's a a lover, not a fighter...guess it comes from having a clicker-training hippie for a mom. 8) He sure skedaddled out of the kitchen after "telling Ruby what was what". :giggle:

He didnt want a come to Jesus moment after he realized what he did. :dance:
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Postby dlynne1123 » October 21st, 2009, 1:05 pm

In all my rescues I've only had two, really DA pitties. One came from a siezure case, as a puppy, and just wanted to kill anything that moved, so we worked on the ball for distracted training and kept other dogs and animals at bay. She ended up being euth. in the new home for challenging a horse when she escaped. at 25 lbs, and yet spunky, the horse won.

Lojac was sneaky and I think it developed with inconsistent training and too many opportunities to fight. He would be all calm, but rigid and when you looked away he would strike. He wasn't reactive or snarly, he just lunged with UFC winning in mind every time. He could perform competitions and walk down the street but it was when I least expected it. The stinker.
With strict strict training and observation he finally lived with my female smoothly, but he had a few scraps, and I couldn't let them 'work it out'. It ended up with broken legs and several punctures. He just bit and held on, and shook. Once corrected, and challenged again he would avoid the situation. He was great to bring places b/c he wasnt reactive and was great with my female on leash, with me. However I couldn't trust him as far as I could throw him!

In my experience with clients it can range from developing at young ages, like the first pup of mine, or sex maturity, around 9 mo to two years. And it can all of a sudden start up at an old age if given the opportunity to fight it out. It gets fun and they look forward to it after that. LIke that 'one time' at the dog park or unsupervised play.

If it is alpha stuff or just, see what i can get away with, I would set up scenarios where you can be prepared to correct or praise accordingly. And separate until they know its better off to just ignore each other in the h ome. No anxiety, high energy or stressful situations loose together until you feel comfortable reading them and their body language. I would correct both dogs the same, and be consistent. If one gets crated, both do, and give yourself enough authority to prevent the escalation before it happens.

As a breed however Its not just cut in stone as i've seen. It can vary from circumstantial DA, to Dog specific DA or down right, any dog is a challenge DA. Some reactive DA can be harnessed to be nothing more than frustration. Once an alternative is given, a better respone results and they can play well when supervised with 'some' dogs.

It might be beneficial to see a behaviorist in your area to evaluate.
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Postby dlynne1123 » October 21st, 2009, 1:13 pm

amazincc wrote::

As far as pack dynamics go I have no problems w/the dogs sorting it out amongst themselves, to an extent. I don't expect them to love each other 24/7, but I do expect them to learn to co-exist semi-peacefully in the same house.
What can I do to encourage and re-enforce that w/out playing "favorite"?
Right now I take turns crating one of the boys when I'm too busy to pay full attention to both of them, and they take turns sleeping w/me at night. Sepp seems to be okay w/that arrangement, but Faust gets pretty vocal and resentful at times.

:D



You could put them both in crates like if you can't get along, no one gets attention. Then they are getting attention give thems omething to do, fully supervised, like boot camp!

If they are both out, down stays for a while. One does obedience aroudn the other. Keep it strict and keep it busy. Then when done. both back into crates. LIke a little time to think about what they did right. Keep it low intensity to keep anxiety down. If my dogs get worked up, the little one is hyper, the others want to scrap at her cuz shes making them nervous. Keep that in mind with the pup.
Also I wouldn't rewad much right now, as far as bones for comfort and stuff. Keep it as a 'because I said so' attitude.

Calm down time, with instruction. Worked for me when introducing a grumpy old guy to the younger household. But i had done one on one training with him for a while to be sure respect was there first, then did the intros, slowly in the house involving obedience.
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Postby mnp13 » October 21st, 2009, 3:07 pm

TinaMartin wrote:
TheRedQueen wrote:Yeah, scared the hell out of him too...he's a a lover, not a fighter...guess it comes from having a clicker-training hippie for a mom. 8) He sure skedaddled out of the kitchen after "telling Ruby what was what". :giggle:

He didnt want a come to Jesus moment after he realized what he did. :dance:

I think she had to get her bearings too, she wasn't quite sure what had just happened. God that was funny!

TheRedQueen wrote:Yeah, scared the hell out of him too...he's a a lover, not a fighter...guess it comes from having a clicker-training hippie for a mom. He sure skedaddled out of the kitchen after "telling Ruby what was what".

Yeah, well, "clicker training hippie mom" must do something right because she can leave her dog in a room for a few hours with bags of treats sitting on a chair, and that bag will still be there when she comes back. Maybe we all need to be hippies for a while. :wink: Hey Demo! Go get some tie dyes

dlynne1123 wrote:Lojac was sneaky and I think it developed with inconsistent training and too many opportunities to fight.

Lojac from Punchline? The one that looked kinda like Riggs? I think he's the one who - even while still a major porker - managed to scale the kennel wall and jam himself through a space about 6 inches high (if I remember right) to get at Rumble. They do the most absurd things when they decide they want to cause trouble.

dlynne1123 wrote:He would be all calm, but rigid and when you looked away he would strike. He wasn't reactive or snarly, he just lunged with UFC winning in mind every time.

That's the same thing with Riggs. No warnings, just all quiet confidence. We "introduced" them at one of the shows right after he was returned to Chris. It was quite a sight. Both boys got the happiest looks on their faces you can imagine, all calm and relaxed and welcoming, tails slowly wagging, no straining at their leashes, no vocalization... just waiting for the dumb humans to let them get within leash range. Yeah, riiiiiight. The only "negative" reactions we got were when we started moving them apart, when they realized that we were very aware of what the two of them had in mind they were both a "little" ticked off.

dlynne1123 wrote:LIke that 'one time' at the dog park or unsupervised play.

And that "one time" is the time we all dread... and that we try to get across to people who are so "pro dog park." They are pushing to put one in in Rochester, and I've been doing my anti-park speaking as often as possible, for any breed. One of the dogs in my brats class has serious issues directly related to an issue from doggie day care, which isn't much different than those stupid parks.

dlynne1123 wrote:As a breed however Its not just cut in stone as i've seen. It can vary from circumstantial DA, to Dog specific DA or down right, any dog is a challenge DA. Some reactive DA can be harnessed to be nothing more than frustration. Once an alternative is given, a better respone results and they can play well when supervised with 'some' dogs.

I definately agree with this. Even super dog aggressive dogs can often get used to having one or two other dogs or other animals around.

dlynne1123 wrote: Then when done. both back into crates. LIke a little time to think about what they did right.

This is one thing I never "got." The guy we used to train with used to do that between sessions of bite work. I never understood it at all. Riggs have never liked his crate at all, he hasn't since the first minute I got him, and I have worked extensively to get him used to it, and in the three and a half years I've had him he has never gotten better about it. John used to have me out him (a long and difficult process) and the "reward" after the out was to stick him back in the crate. huh? He lets go - which he doesn't want to do - and the next thing I do is something that he hates. So what's his incentive to let go next time? I was always explained to me that they will "think about the last thing they did and be more excited about it when they come out" which is true for dogs who like their crates, but if you have a dog who doesn't completely love its crate - or is at least completely indifferent to it - then in my opinion you're not doing yourself any favors in this department.
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